Why continue to breed TH and PHA carriers?

[jaimiediamond]

Thats what the shame is on the th and pha deal. It drives such a wedge between the club calf deal and the beef industry. All this time and money pours into the deal and these defect cattle are useless out in the country. That really makes the clubbie deal look ridiculous.

But you didnt answere the question. Why are YOU still breeding carriers and dragging them to Denver to show, when they are useless?

I will throw out the thought that maybe aj was trying to bring the two worlds closer together   (lol) Some poor commercial man could have bought Sodhouse Charlie in the pens and voila th is everywhere

 

[OH Breeder]

Thats what the shame is on the th and pha deal. It drives such a wedge between the club calf deal and the beef industry. All this time and money pours into the deal and these defect cattle are useless out in the country. That really makes the clubbie deal look ridiculous.

But you didnt answere the question. Why are YOU still breeding carriers and dragging them to Denver to show, when they are useless?

Want to clarify the pot calling kettle....You can't call show people and carrier genetics bad bad and a joke...... but yet have them in your own back yard and cart them to Denver that's not fair. My assumption is the bull was a yearling so someone used carrier genetics recently.

 

[aj]

If you have a herd of th carriers frostback...you are a joke to beef industry. You are a hobbie person. You are a clubby person. All worthwhile breeds in the industry ban genetic defects. It isn't right or wrong but if you condone carriers you are of no use to the beef industry. You have pretty calves. They take pretty pictures. It seems like the club calf industry is tied to the defects. It is a large industry. There are millions of dollars spent on glue and glue remove al. I don't really care what you do. But cattle with genetic defects are a joke to the industry of production cattle. Its not wrong or right....its a fact. I don't care anymore about what the suburban cowboys do. I have spent 3,000$ testing for defects. In the last few years. I do not use carrier bulls. I have very few carriers anymore. I just had a hamburger pattie meal from the Charlie. I personally feel all lethal genetic defects should be a eliminated. I know you married into the one deal and you like to play cowgirl on weekends. If it makes you happy go for it. You are special. You show club calves. It looks like to me that defects are here to stay in the club calf deal. A question was asked....and I responded. I will drag any goddamn  kinda cattle I want to Denver. Try and stop me.

 

[Doc]

If you have a herd of th carriers frostback...you are a joke to beef industry. You are a hobbie person. You are a clubby person. All worthwhile breeds in the industry ban genetic defects. It isn't right or wrong but if you condone carriers you are of no use to the beef industry. You have pretty calves. They take pretty pictures. It seems like the club calf industry is tied to the defects. It is a large industry. There are millions of dollars spent on glue and glue remove al. I don't really care what you do. But cattle with genetic defects are a joke to the industry of production cattle. Its not wrong or right....its a fact. I don't care anymore about what the suburban cowboys do. I have spent 3,000$ testing for defects. In the last few years. I do not use carrier bulls. I have very few carriers anymore. I just had a hamburger pattie meal from the Charlie. I personally feel all lethal genetic defects should be a eliminated. I know you married into the one deal and you like to play cowgirl on weekends. If it makes you happy go for it. You are special. You show club calves. It looks like to me that defects are here to stay in the club calf deal. A question was asked....and I responded. I will drag any goddamn  kinda cattle I want to Denver. Try and stop me.

How can you say that someone is a "joke to the beef industry" & " cattle with genetic defects are a joke to the industry of production cattle", then admit you have carrier cattle in your herd & take some to put on display at Denver?? What makes you different than any other club calf breeder with carrier animals in their herd ?

 

[knabe]

If you have a herd of th carriers frostback...you are a joke to beef industry. You are a hobbie person. You are a clubby person. strawman argument.  FAIL.


All worthwhile breeds in the industry ban genetic defects.  angus advertised as the defect free breed.  FAIL


It isn't right or wrong but if you condone carriers you are of no use to the beef industry.   strawman argument.  FAIL

You have pretty calves. They take pretty pictures. It seems like the club calf industry is tied to the defects.  it may seem like it, but they are not.

It is a large industry. There are millions of dollars spent on glue and glue remove al. I don't really care what you do. But cattle with genetic defects are a joke to the industry of production cattle.   what about the defects we don't know about that are multigenic, get rid of those too?  what about humans with defects.  get rid of those too?

Its not wrong or right....its a fact. I don't care anymore about what the suburban cowboys do.   strawman addiction.

I have spent 3,000$ testing for defects. In the last few years. I do not use carrier bulls. I have very few carriers anymore. why do you have them? above you said.....

I just had a hamburger pattie meal from the Charlie. I personally feel all lethal genetic defects should be a eliminated. I know you married into the one deal and you like to play cowgirl on weekends.  so do you like to play city boy on weekends?


If it makes you happy go for it. You are special. You show club calves. It looks like to me that defects are here to stay in the club calf deal. A question was asked....and I responded. I will drag any goddamn  kinda cattle I want to Denver. Try and stop and stop me. we have to do it twice?

 

[knabe]

How can you say that someone is a "joke to the beef industry" & " cattle with genetic defects are a joke to the industry of production cattle", then admit you have carrier cattle in your herd & take some to put on display at Denver?? What makes you different than any other club calf breeder with carrier animals in their herd ?

not sure he took a carrier to denver. if he did, we should stop and stop him.

 

[Doc]

Thank goodness for the search feature!

I was thinking Jungels was going to bring like 20 jpj sons. I need a outcross Shorthorn so bad. Maybe I could buy fathead? Sounds like M bar is going with a pen of 3. Jungles bull won Kansas State fair and a deal in Canada. Hopefully I'll bring enough money this time to get a jpj. Sue and GM. We're taking 7 composite bulls out. Pen of five. All but one is th and pha tested free. The one bull th bull is 3-4 short 1-4 Red Angus. Dark red and very club calfy. Sodhouse goverment mule is going but not really for sale. We're keeping him. Full bro to 606 with 88# bwt.Two heifer bull prospects. Pm me and I can send phamplet and a disk or something.

Yes frostback. Sodhouse charlie 802 is a th carrier. I have 10 or more th carrier cows. Charlie had a 86# birth weight and is out of a super Sodhouse Dog Soldier daughter. He was kind of a mistake but he ended up as a bull. Not huge boned and not huge birth weight but someone may use him in the club calf deal. I may go to hell for it I don't know.

 

[WB]

It should be part of any association policy to not allow animals that test positive into the registry.

Ok I probably should have stayed out of this, but decided to jump in.

Maybe SOMEDAY all breeds will be able to say you cant register calves that have PHA and TH.
But face up animals like Heatwave, Monopoly, Bojo, and Walks Alone who are all MAJORLY used, with a ton of succes (Granted Bojo and Walks Alone arent quite as legendary Heatwave and Monopoly. Yet.) All carry TH, if you just said no animals that carry TH can be registered or shown then you are going to send major major shockwaves through the multimillion dollar Clubbie industry... Also it would only matter if stock shows, I.E. Fort Worth, Denver, NAILE, Houston and so on decided that carriers would not be allowed to show.

 

[JTM]

It should be part of any association policy to not allow animals that test positive into the registry.

Ok I probably should have stayed out of this, but decided to jump in.

Maybe SOMEDAY all breeds will be able to say you cant register calves that have PHA and TH.
But face up animals like Heatwave, Monopoly, Bojo, and Walks Alone who are all MAJORLY used, with a ton of succes (Granted Bojo and Walks Alone arent quite as legendary Heatwave and Monopoly. Yet.) All carry TH, if you just said no animals that carry TH can be registered or shown then you are going to send major major shockwaves through the multimillion dollar Clubbie industry... Also it would only matter if stock shows, I.E. Fort Worth, Denver, NAILE, Houston and so on decided that carriers would not be allowed to show.

I'm not sure if I agree that all carriers should be unable to be registered or not. Different breed associations are in different situations and they can either deal with not getting the registrations from carriers or they cant'. The Angus association can deal with it. I don't really agree that it would only matter if the stock shows disallowed carriers to show. They wouldn't need to change anything if the associations didn't allow carriers to be registered. They need the registration papers to get into the purebred show to begin with. I think if all the breed associations did this, it would definitely make the crossbreds even more at an advantage in the steer shows. I think this along with the loss of registrations is why it isn't done. We raise shorthorns and maines and I only have one th carrier cow left. We test all of her heifers and disclose before selling them. I don't buy carriers(at least knowingly) and I don't breed to any carrier bulls, never have(knowingly).

 

[chambero]

It's the hot stove I just can't keep from touching.........

The average large commercial cattleman in the southern U.S. and great plains region doesn't give a rats behind about any breed registry apart from the fact that its "nice" if the black Angus bull he just bought has nice calving ease EPDs. The vast majority couldn't tell you what EPD stands for.  And very, very few have anything remotely resembling a shorthorn running around in the pasture.  If I took an hour with the average commercial cattleman to explain everything I could about genetic defects (clubby bulls, Angus bulls, etc), I'll wager that they would still buy a black carrier heifer from me a whole lot faster than i could sell them a clean, roan shorthorn heifer.

Feedlots certainly could not care less about recessive genetic defects.  Most commercial producers aren't producing replacements so why would they care?  The fact is THEY DONT CARE, which probably isn't a good thing, but its a fact.  They worry a whole lot more about the weather, feed prices, gentleness of animals, etc.

Honest truth, we show feedlot buyers our cattle all the time.  Out of 200 some odd calves that these buyers get to see every year (after I've pulled out the best show steers), they'll pick out the left over calves sired by club calf bulls every time as "hey there's a good calf".  They don't care if their front feet don't exactly point straight forwards, if they have a little extra hair, etc.  I've watched the carcass data on our own calves for years - it doesn't matter there either.  We've got a moose of an About Time heifer this year that every old coot that sees her wants to buy her.  I'm sure she's a carrier.

I would love it if I didn't have to use carriers to raise steers for my sons and friends to compete with.  But it's been proven to me that I do (for black steers anyway).  Our own policy - we ony buy clean, maternal oriented bulls so that there are no "accidents".  But I do AI to carrier bulls.  You want to eliminate this necessity - lobby your universities and judges to start selecting cattle that are a little bit bigger frame.  That'll back us up on genetic lines - more toward the older pre-TH stuff that won.

Using carrier cattle is a self-imposed nuisance, but it's not a big deal in the grand scheme of things.  Real cattleman lose calves every day to a wide variety of things.  Genetic defects are background noise unless someone is inbreeding within their own herd.

 

[aj]

I would agree that feedlots aren't concerned about genetic defects. I think large commercial producers don't worry much about genetic defects cause they assume the seedstock producers take care of this stuff. I also admitt that very few heatseekeror Shorthorns make there way into the general beef cow population. So it that regard the defects aren't a big thing. But I know guys who buy heifer calves 5 head at a time at salebarns, then put a potload together and breed the bunch and then sell them as a bell ringer group of special bred females. If you have th carriers make their way into this system th will get out there. Its not really a crime that these cattle make there way in the general population. In doubt any one will be taken to court. I ns ome ways its pulling a fast one and no one will know where the th carriers made there way into the general population. So in some ways its no big deal with the th carriers. You can't be prosecuted for anything. Pass the buck down 3 or four generations before any defects show up. Let them worry about it. Commercial people won't care till their first deformed calf shows up. But its hard for me to see how a seedstock producer can not lay down the paramiters and try to eliminate lethal genectic defects. But its no big deal. Unless you are concerned about it becoming a long term problem down the road. If the commercial guys don't even know about the th defect I bet you could get away with selling them th carrier stock. I guess that is they way the world works. Th and pha wouldn't make the impact of the Red Angus defects or Angus defects cause I don't think much maine or th type cattle make into the general beef population. The famous St. Loius Lad bull that was the cause of the darfism deal in Herfords was born in what 1906 or somewhere around there. It wasn't 50 years latter till it shabanged into a hell of a problem.So if it feels good do it I guess. Just cause you can. Is th and pha the first defects that seem to have an advantageous look to them. I think they are. Thats what makes this phnomenom so interesting to me.

 

[DTW]

I can tell you that one of the first cows i purchased just over 17 years ago from a ranch in montana that one of them was a pha carrier back then.  Remember now this was a commercial operation out there that used alot of maine anjou breeding.
Her 4th calf was pha positive and that was before anyone new what it was.  We just chalked it up to the calf died inside her and was born a month early looking like a big blop of calf. 
These birth defects happened not because of the show ring but from natural causes.  Just like all the other birth defects in the different breeds of cattle.

But i can say that you can pick out carrier cattle and they are the ones that are winning as well.  With raising show steers you have to deal with the birth defects to get those great ones.  I have had full sibs out of flushes and  you can go out and pick the ones that are carriers and the ones that are not.  And in the fall the buyers all want the carriers.  Thus why i use them.

 

[linnettejane]

did pha start in the maines?  what lines?  how long ago?

 

[rarebirdz]

there are 2 Maine-Anjou bulls Draft Pick and Stinger that directly trace

quote as per dr beever http://www.hpj.com/archives/2008/dec08/dec29/MaineAnjoubreedersmanage.cfm

Old mutation

“PHA looks to be the oldest mutation we have dealt with. It continually pushes down through generations having continual sequential breed downs,” said Dr. Beever. After much research and pedigree search, the mutation was traced to three commonly used AI sires in the American herd. Due to incomplete or inaccurate pedigrees or the inability to obtain samples from older full-blood Maine Anjou cattle, Beever said molecular markers surrounding the gene suggested a bull born in 1970 to be a common source for the mutation.

While the Maine Anjou breed is considered the source of PHA in the U.S., with the allowance of registering percentage cattle in some breed registries, PHA has been found in other breeds as well.

The genetics

PHA, like other recessive defects, can only show up when two carriers are mated to each other. Affected calves are rarely tested for the defect and some are aborted too early to be tested; however, those calves would be considered homozygous for the mutation. A PHA carrier (PHAC) would be heterozygous for the mutation. Using the genetic information known on two animals, a breeder can determine the chances of having an affected calf, according to Dr. Beever.

He explained: “If the normal gene is “P” and the defective gene is “p,” mating a carrier bull with the genotype Pp for the PHA gene to a carrier cow also with the genotype Pp for the PHA gene will result in three calves that look normal at birth, but two of the three will be PHA carriers (Pp). The fourth calf will be born with PHA (pp). Thus, mating two carriers gives a breeder a 25 percent chance of having a PHA calf every time this mating is repeated.

“Mating a carrier bull or cow to a non-carrier cow or bull will result in 50 percent of the calves being PHA carriers (Pp). A non-carrier or PHA-free (PHAF) animal would have the genotype PP.”

 

[Gators Rule]

This is 'Steerplanet'.

When it comes time to buy steers in the fall, do the buyers look at the TH/PHA status of the steer or the quality of the calf?  There's the answer.  You can speak of commercial this, clubby-that, until we are blue in the face.  More often than not TH begets more bone and hair, and bone and hair sells calves at this current time in the show steer industry.   Steer project buyers could care less about genetic status', they want good ones.  I know more than one buyer that seeks out TH carriers for their steer calves or at least wants them out of TH bulls.  Right or wrong, it's where we're at.

R1, that's actually the point.    Impressive breeders were the same way in the Quarter Horse industry.  The results of his breeding far outweighed the negative effects of his HYPP defect....in THEIR eyes.  It was a win at all cost philosophy... 

Yes, I understand this is SteerPlanet....but half of the matings of TH and/or PHA carrier bulls or cows result in a heifer, not a steer.    Do we honestly think all those heifers stay within the club calf industry? Something tells me no.


How many go to sale barns and are subsequently bought by unsuspecting commercial breeders?  Do we have to have an epidemic beforewe say it is a ethical issue?    I'mnot judging, but I am very curious.  I have never owned one, so I can only assume a TH/PHA carrier must be awesome!!    <rock>

 

[shortyisqueen]

In regards to the ethics of breeding cattle with genetic defects, just how far should we go to eliminate them from the gene pool? While we could all cease breeding TH carriers tomorrow if we wanted, what about the next genetic defect that is not yet identified? What if it was identified in your herd - in your most productive cow families? I can think of no better reason to establish a test for a recessive trait other than to enable us to save the positive influence of carrier cattle. Otherwise, why test? Why not just send everything of carrier lineage to the plant?

There are lethal genetic defects out there that are NOT recessive and do not, at present time, have a test to easily identify them. Should any breeders who have a case of one of these defects cull all related cattle in their herd?

I went on a tour of purebred herd last year and commented on several beautiful cows in their herd - they were easily fleshing, moderately framed tanks with beautiful udder structure. I was really surprised when they told me all of these cows were being used for recips because they were TH carriers. Before that, I had thought the advantages of having a TH carrier were mostly associated with bone/hair. I wondered after that, if the fleshing ability of these cows were related to their TH status. I do not think that anyone, for any reason, should sell a carrier or possible carrier to ANYONE without making the buyer aware. However, if you took away the TH, these were good commercially viable cattle. It seems a sad thing to throw all that away.

I am afraid that we will eventually get to the point, with all this genetic testing, where no bloodlines of any breed are 'safe' or we are so limited by clean genetics that the quality of our cattle suffers. It might not be with these particular defects, but where do we draw the line?

 

[kfacres]

This is 'Steerplanet'.

When it comes time to buy steers in the fall, do the buyers look at the TH/PHA status of the steer or the quality of the calf?  There's the answer.  You can speak of commercial this, clubby-that, until we are blue in the face.  More often than not TH begets more bone and hair, and bone and hair sells calves at this current time in the show steer industry.   Steer project buyers could care less about genetic status', they want good ones.  I know more than one buyer that seeks out TH carriers for their steer calves or at least wants them out of TH bulls.  Right or wrong, it's where we're at.

R1, that's actually the point.    Impressive breeders were the same way in the Quarter Horse industry.   The results of his breeding far outweighed the negative effects of his HYPP defect....in THEIR eyes.   It was a win at all cost philosophy... 

Yes, I understand this is SteerPlanet....but half of the matings of TH and/or PHA carrier bulls or cows result in a heifer, not a steer.    Do we honestly think all those heifers stay within the club calf industry? Something tells me no.


How many go to sale barns and are subsequently bought by unsuspecting commercial breeders?   Do we have to have an epidemic beforewe say it is a ethical issue?    I'mnot judging, but I am very curious.  I have never owned one, so I can only assume a TH/PHA carrier must be awesome!!    <rock>

I would almost put my money to say that very few of the straight, cripple legged club calf heifers who attend the market place, make it anywhere towards a commercial herd, or a bred heifer special buyer.  Buyers do not like to propagate those kinds of cattle- even if they are super cheap...  If they are sound, they'll be staying in someone's herd for a cow-- and most of the time even if they ain't- they'll stay too. 

 

[aj]

I always thought that if you have a th cow that is better than ave(whatever that means,for the showring I guess) when they they have a th free calf the calf is really average looking as far as showring traits. I think that that is why using a th sire is such a powerfull tool. You can breed a knothead calf to a th carrier and you instantly have a calf that has the club calf look to them. I think most of the time when a th carrier cow has a th free calf they are pretty average cattle. Thats why I'm not sure that making an excuse of keeping a th cow around cause she will eventually have a th free holds water. Maybe it does on a higher level. If it did work There should be th free cattle appearing out of carrier lines. But they don't appear. As I understand it if a club calf isn't a th carrier, no one even looks at it cause he doesn't have a chance in competing. We are not limited with a genetic defect pool of genes. We may be limited to defect genetically clean lines of cattle that win club calf shows. Th defect cattle have "the look" .

 

[DL]

did pha start in the maines?  what lines?  how long ago?

Originally PHA calves were identified as Maine- Anjou, Shorthorn or their crosses. The apparent link was three popular bulls: two registered Maine-Anjou bulls (Draft Pick, born 1989; AMAA # 165,744 and Stinger, born 1985; AMAA # 111,205) and a bull registered with the American Chianina Association (Payback, born 1992; ACA # 232,907). Subsequent genetic testing suggested a common ancestor of the three bulls. Draft Pick’s maternal great grand sire, Paramount (AMAA # 77; born 1973), a full-bood Maine-Anjou bull exported from England to Canada, was a PHA carrier. Due to incomplete or inaccurate pedigrees or inability to obtain samples from older full-blood Maine-Anjou cattle, the origin of the mutation in Stinger and Payback has not been positively identified. Molecular markers surrounding the gene suggest the French import Dalton (AMAA # 15; born 1970) as a common source for Stinger and Payback. In the USA, the Maine-Anjou breed is considered the origin of PHA. In registered Maine-Anjou cattle, Draft Pick is primarily responsible for the widespread dispersion of the mutation, whereas in registered Shorthorn cattle, Stinger is considered primarily responsible. A second mutation in the same gene has been identified in the Dexter breed of cattle.

 

[OH Breeder]

did pha start in the maines?  what lines?  how long ago?

Originally PHA calves were identified as Maine- Anjou, Shorthorn or their crosses. The apparent link was three popular bulls: two registered Maine-Anjou bulls (Draft Pick, born 1989; AMAA # 165,744 and Stinger, born 1985; AMAA # 111,205) and a bull registered with the American Chianina Association (Payback, born 1992; ACA # 232,907). Subsequent genetic testing suggested a common ancestor of the three bulls. Draft Pick’s maternal great grand sire, Paramount (AMAA # 77; born 1973), a full-bood Maine-Anjou bull exported from England to Canada, was a PHA carrier. Due to incomplete or inaccurate pedigrees or inability to obtain samples from older full-blood Maine-Anjou cattle, the origin of the mutation in Stinger and Payback has not been positively identified. Molecular markers surrounding the gene suggest the French import Dalton (AMAA # 15; born 1970) as a common source for Stinger and Payback. In the USA, the Maine-Anjou breed is considered the origin of PHA. In registered Maine-Anjou cattle, Draft Pick is primarily responsible for the widespread dispersion of the mutation, whereas in registered Shorthorn cattle, Stinger is considered primarily responsible. A second mutation in the same gene has been identified in the Dexter breed of cattle.

Both Stinger and Improver are found in the bloodlines of Double Stuff one of the more succesful shorthorn club calf sires. Hence the Double Double carrier lines.