Why do you like your breed of cattle?

[jimmyski]

My family has run a commercial Red Angus herd for about 20 years now. I agree with many of the things that Road Warrior has said about them. The reason that we love them has a lot to do with their temperament, along with great maternal traits, mothering, and fleshring ability. For the most part they are more moderate in both their frame size and milking ability than their "Black" counterparts which also works out to our benefit, living on the short grass prairie of eastern Colorado.  Until the past couple of years, I felt like the Red Angus were the most conistent breed in terms of overall quality, mainly due to the lack of chasing the fads that all the other breeds have done. However, with this sudden boom in using Angus bloodlines to supposedly produce outcrosses, has me pretty worried. I have been very satisfied with the type of cattle we have been able to purchase, mostly from Butch Schuler in Nebraska. I am concerned about how far this supposed outcross deal will go though.

Road Warrior, I would like to hear your thoughts on the whole breeding Reds to Blacks in order to produce the outcross genetics.

 

[justintime]

Road warrior, I agree with your  comments about the RAngus breed. Red Angus are a very prominent breed in my area right now. Each spring there are probably over 500 RA yearling bulls that sell withing 50 miles of me. I would be the first to say that the improvements made in this breed in the past few years is close to amazing. If there is still one thing that they need to really work on is their feet. I still see lots of RA bulls that have crossed toes at 12 to 14 months of age. These are going to continue to get worse... not better unless breeders start to select hard for good footed sires. I see lots of young looking Red Angus bulls going through the auction marts to slaughter that appear to be quite young, but are there because their feet are so bad. Red Angus breeders really need to be commended on 'fixing ' some of the other issues of a few years ago.
Eight or ten years ago, there was a major surge in use of Red Angus bulls around here. People bought any Red Angus bull available, assuming they would be calving ease sires.Most of the commercial cows in this area were exotic cross, many being Charolais and Simmy heritage.  My vet says that the Red Angus c-sections he performed probably paid for his new clinic. For some reason the Red Angus of that day were dynamite when used with some Simmental bloodlines. One of my neighbours had a real mess with numerous c- sections, dead calves and hurt cows. Many people put some pretty ordinary Red Angus bulls out with their heifers because this breed had highly promoted itself as " the calving ease breed". I saw some of these bulls and one of the things I saw was the shape of their heads. These bulls had reasonably small birth weights themselves, but they had almost square heads, that is, they had too much width to their skull, and in my opinion, this caused lots of calving issues. Around my place, if a heifer is going to have trouble calving, you know by the length of time it takes her to get the calves head through the birth canal.If she pushes the head out, usually the calving is close to being done. My vet tells me he used to cut 80 lb calves out, that were almost square in shape. That is why I have always wrestled with using calving ease as a selection tool alone.Should we also be using calving ease as a selection trait as well? I would think that if a  bull throws calves that are two inches longer in body length than another sire's calves, he will have heavier birth weights, yet the calving ease may be equal or even favor the bull with the heaviest calves.
There are some awesome cattle in the Red Angus breed but in my opinion there are still some issues that need to be addressed, but all breeds can say that. One issue that I hear, that I would have never guessed, is that some cattlemen are telling me that their Red Angus cross cows have more issues with udders falling apart  by the time they reach 7 or 8 years old. A very good friend of mine judged the National Angus show in Brazil a few years ago. In Brazil about 95 % of the Angus cattle are red simply because of their hot climate being situated close to the equator. He toured several large herds while he was there and he said he was amazed by the poor udder quality he saw, and most of these cattle carried North American genetics. I have not noticed this myself but maybe Road Warrior can give us his thoughts on this.

 

[jimmyski]

Justintime,

I will give a few of my thoughts on your comments. Overall, we have not had too many problems with udder quality in our herd of commercial Red Angus cows. However, that is something that my father and I are the hardest on when making culling and selection decisions. I try and keep good records on the cows giving each of them an udder score of 1-5 at calving. The 4's and 5's are culled every year and I make sure to write all the numbers down and not keep any heifers out of that cow. At the same time for the last 6 years we have made an adamant effort to improve the feet and legs of our cow herd along with making sure the bulls we purchase are acceptable as well. With my strong background in livestock judging this is something that I just won't tolerate as we are in hard country with a lot of canyons in eastern Colorado. Like Road Warrior said, their have been some problems with the Cherokee Canyons on their feet and legs, however his son Cheyenne doesn't seem to be near as bad and has worked well on our cattle. At the same time I have heard Lancer has been known to throw some udder problems and I guess we will see as we just kept a few heifers out first calf crop of two Lancer sons. The Lancers seem to be the type of cattle that I like, in terms of being moderate in frame size, ours have good feet and legs, and also seem to have more muscle than the Cherokee blood lines. I guess we will wait and see if they are the type of cows I want though. One bull I've already started on planning to use is Supervision from Von Forell's for next year as I have seen many calves that I like out of him.  Becktons and Von Forell's from Wyoming, along with Schuler's out of Nebraska seem to produce the cattle that are the most suitable for our type of environment as most of each of their cattle are moderate framed, easy keeping cattle, that for the most part are good on their feet and legs. I really like the Phenotype of Pieper's as well, however they are just a little bit too big for me. I may change my mind about that sometime down the road, but for now these 3 breeder's seem to have most of what I'm looking for in terms of the type and kind of cattle I want to use.

 

[OH Breeder]

Great Information. I just cant' help but think I really like the looks of this heifer. I am facinated with the potential that could come from this mating. I am not a purist by any means and believe there is always room to improve. But, you don't ever hear many Red Angus folks talk about the Durham program.

 

[shortyjock89]

Great Information. I just cant' help but think I really like the looks of this heifer. I am facinated with the potential that could come from this mating. I am not a purist by any means and believe there is always room to improve. But, you don't ever hear many Red Angus folks talk about the Durham program.

OH B- I think that the heifers that have come from that mating are an excellent example of what happens when an awesome bull is mated with and awesome cow.  I don't look at breed so much (when dealing with British cattle, that is) as I do overall quality.  Excellent cows have a much better chance of having excellent calves, and the same for bulls.  IF Shorthorn and RA breeders can  work together on this Durham Red breed, good things will happen for them.

 

[ROAD WARRIOR]

Jimmyski & JIT - First of all my view on the black out cross, you have to understand that in comparison to most other breeds our gene pool is very small. Look in all of the AI catalogs that have RA bulls, there is very little in the way of genetic variation available. The only option we have to bring in "new" genetics is from the black Angus breed. To do this we have to either find a red gene carrying bull or make our own red carrier by breeding a red cow to a black bull. I constantly look for a red calf out of black parentage and look at several every year, I haven't found what I think is the next "great one" yet but I keep looking. Next, UDDER QUALITY! A real pet peave of mine. This is a genetic problem that I have no tolerance for. A few years ago many breeders were single trait selecting for milking abuility and as with any time you single trait select it usually ends up in a wreck. Too much of a good thing isn't always a good thing. King Rob was a heavily used bull that comes to mind, alot of his daughters did not last very long in purebred herds because A) they milked too hard as first calf heifers and wouldn't breed back or- B) by the age of 5 they had blown udders with huge teets. There are still alot of his sons in use. STRUCTURAL & FOOT PROBLEMS - if you have read many of my past posts you have probably figured out that I am a structure freak. In the RA breed there has been so much emphasis placed on EPDs that many breeders apperently have quit looking at the animal and are breeding paper in an effort to breed the perfect set of EPDs. I blame the National association for a lot of this due to their tunnel vision of EPD promotion. It has been pushed into the show ring as well to the point that cattle with serious foot and structure problems will beat good sound cattle if they have the right EPDs. I'm old enough to remember when we sorted cattle for what they were that day in the show ring and not what a computer estimated their progeny would be years later. I'm a little old fashioned but I still breed cattle for what they are not what their papers say they will be or will produce later. JIT - Make no mistake about it there are cow killers in our breed just like any other, 10 -15 years ago there were probably more than there is today. We may be known as a calving ease and maternal breed but you still have to watch what you're doing.

 

[AAOK]

Of course, I have to say Maine-Anjou.  With that said, I much prefer the High Percentage cattle, mostly for Disposition, but also for Size.  I too like big cattle.  I like to know that when I'm not around, a cow (or heifer) can squirt out an 85lb. calf without missing a stride.  Another positive point about the Maine-Anjou breed, are the State and National Associations, which are very focused on their Junior Programs.  From what I have witnessed, there is not another breed which compares in the Jr. arena.

The breed has played an integral roll in our family for 16 years.  Partly due to the cows, our daughters are highly educated, highly motivated, outgoing professional Business Women, Wives, and Mothers. 

According to my Bosses, Maine-Anjou is still the "Prettiest" breed.

Dan

 

 

[red]

Dan- Amen!

When we were looking for a cow for me, we saw some Maines at the FarmScience Review in Ohio. I fell in love w/ their faces & their frames. That was 15 years ago & still have Maines.

Red (clapping)

 

[ROAD WARRIOR]

Great Information. I just cant' help but think I really like the looks of this heifer. I am facinated with the potential that could come from this mating. I am not a purist by any means and believe there is always room to improve. But, you don't ever hear many Red Angus folks talk about the Durham program.

OH B- I think that the heifers that have come from that mating are an excellent example of what happens when an awesome bull is mated with and awesome cow.  I don't look at breed so much (when dealing with British cattle, that is) as I do overall quality.  Excellent cows have a much better chance of having excellent calves, and the same for bulls.  IF Shorthorn and RA breeders can  work together on this Durham Red breed, good things will happen for them.

I think alot of the reason you don't hear a lot of RA breeders talking about it is the fact that it is really not being promoted to them by any of the associations. Most of what I know about it has come from talking to friends of mine in the steer and shorthorn business at shows acrossed the country. Most of what I hear about it is coming from people in the more southern regions, at least south of us here in the midwest.

 

[Jill]

I think it is being promoted on the Shorthorn side, haven't heard much on the Red Angus side.  WHR was on board really early, if I remember right they had some of them on the ground before the program was actually in place.

 

[milkmaid56]

I LOVE BRANGUS!!!!  Excellent heat tolerance like the brahma, but more meaty.  its about 100 degrees in my neck of the woods and the brangus cows dont look hot at all and they love to sun themselves, but the maine cows are all fighting for the shade spots.  never seen a bad milking brangus cow either.  and i just love the huge ears!!!

 

[KYsteer]

Hey Road Warrior,
  I am interested to see what you think about the bull Canyon 2222.  I know that you said the Canyon line had some issues.  Wanted to know if you had any experience with this bull.  He seems to be the kind I like.  Very moderate on frame, thick muscled, but with good growth.  Just curious on your thoughts on him as I have considered using him on some clubby type first calf heifers.

 

[DL]

WOW - what a host of really good information - thanks RW, JIT, jimmyski (j-ski?) - I start about now thinking about next years breeding (actually I am always thinking about it) - I find that if a bull is not pleasing to my eye I just won't use him (I also won't use bulls whose owners I don't respect but that is a whole different sticky wicket can of worms)...so anyhow, as I peruse the SEK catalog there is an Angus bull Dunlouise Excalibur Y070 (if I was a bull and my name was Louise I would be offended, but) - anyhow this is a Scottish bull, with traditional Scottish Angus pedigree (whatever that means) but carries the red gene - would he be a decent candidate to infuse "new blood" into the limited RA pedigree (assuming the offspring was red of course) - I just found him to be phenotypically appealing (still B&W picture - maybe he also can walk) - any thoughts....

 

[Joe Boy]

Over the years I have had and dealt with many different breeds of cattle.  I selected for myself the Maine Anjou.  I saw my first one in person in 1975 and thought of it as a meaty Holstein.  I teased the lady showing it at San Angelo, but had actually seen pictures of the breed prior to that.  She took offence at my teasing.  But after having Angus, Herefords, Limousin's, Semitals, Brangus, Chi-Angus and Shorthorns I began selecting Maine Anjou bulls because they were so gentle.  I liked their bone and big feet.  I like high percentage and Maintainers better than fullbloods because they flesh up quicker, or that has been my experience.  Everyone talks about how easy my cattle are to handle and my pens are not the easy type to work cattle.  Probably the best cow I have ever owned was a Red Chi-Angus.  She was not easy to work, but not hard like some of the Brangus or Limousines.  But she had the best udder on any cow I ever owned and she was 40 % Red Angus.  Her udder was small, but her calves would out gain every other type of cow we owned.  They would out weigh calves 2 months older than them at selling time.  She was as gentle as a dog after you put the halter on her but had to put in the chute to get it on.  I have 8 heifers that I will calve this fall out of a son who was sired by our first Maine bull.  I have 4 heifers that have already calved an their calf is out gaining the older cows. These heifers are better dispositioned than their dams.

 

[Show Dad]

We have been showing Red Angus cattle for the past few years with tremendous results. Steers mainly. Yes at the state fairs and the national scene there is very little support in the market class from the association. But so what. Most judges know the RA's are quality cattle and will give us a serious look (still need to have it where it counts). Many purples, reserves  and champs but little competition in the breed. And that's a problem! Judges say good things but almost always comment on how nice it is to see a RA shown.

I agree with RW that we all need to be better judges of cattle. But wasn't that the purpose behind cattle shows (especially juniors) in the first place. We all do the next generation a disservice when we don't teach them how to judge (or buy) cattle. I know some of us do this as a hobby but cattle are a business. If your cows or bulls only have a 5 year service life then it doesn't matter what they look like in the ring because you are most likely losing money. It amazes me how many of the kids that show don't know how to "look" at a calf and tell if it will perform for their purpose, be it for the ring or the ranch. Many of these kids have been showing 10+ years. Some still don't understand what the judges are saying. And in the context of Reds question, how many know the advantages of their breed? And then compared to others and the value of crossbreeding? Maybe more than I think.

The best time I have with the kids is breeding time and then at calving time. We have many discussion of what we want to accomplish with the next set of calves. Then we experience the times of going to school a little late because their is a new calf that needs to be "checked." And then watching how that calf matures. Better still is when the calf is out of one of the kids own cow. It sure educates them about planning and results (and the disappointments). Now that's good times and good cattle!

 

[ROAD WARRIOR]

There are alot of "Canyon" cattle in use right now. I have very little experience with the Canyon 2222 bull to base an opinion on. Genetically - he should be very moderate in frame, probably typically early maturing with some muscle shape to him. I would like to see him or his off spring on the move to check the hoof quality and if they could " cover their tracks". Some of the more moderate , early maturing ones get just a little stiff on the move for me - I like to see them be able to get out and move with some flex. Sorry I can't be more help KY Steer. DL - Any Red carrier is worth looking at assuming they are the right kind for me. I am not familiar with the Y070 angus bull but I will be checking him out , it would be way cool if he was real good and could move. Maybe you have found "the sleeper!"

 

[TJ]

There are alot of "Canyon" cattle in use right now. I have very little experience with the Canyon 2222 bull to base an opinion on. Genetically - he should be very moderate in frame, probably typically early maturing with some muscle shape to him. I would like to see him or his off spring on the move to check the hoof quality and if they could " cover their tracks". Some of the more moderate , early maturing ones get just a little stiff on the move for me - I like to see them be able to get out and move with some flex. Sorry I can't be more help KY Steer. DL - Any Red carrier is worth looking at assuming they are the right kind for me. I am not familiar with the Y070 angus bull but I will be checking him out , it would be way cool if he was real good and could move. Maybe you have found "the sleeper!"

Interesting discussion about the Red Angus! 

FWIW. I actually own 6 registered Red Angus females & my father in-law owns a Red Angus cow too.  Several of mine trace back to Cherokee Canyon & a few back to King Rob & Heavenly.  However, the best 2 Red Angus females out of the group, IMHO, trace back to none of those bulls (at least they don't show up on the certificates).  Right now, all are being bred to Lowline bulls to produce registered percentage Lowlines or what some people are now calling "Redlines".  However, if I don't sell them in the next few years, I am thinking about producing some Durham Reds or some Tarentaise X Red Angus F1's & then using those to make a 3-way or possibly even a 4-way composite or possibly go clubby.  I've got lots of ideas, just don't know how many of those ideas that I will get to try. 

 

[garybob]

There are alot of "Canyon" cattle in use right now. I have very little experience with the Canyon 2222 bull to base an opinion on. Genetically - he should be very moderate in frame, probably typically early maturing with some muscle shape to him. I would like to see him or his off spring on the move to check the hoof quality and if they could " cover their tracks". Some of the more moderate , early maturing ones get just a little stiff on the move for me - I like to see them be able to get out and move with some flex. Sorry I can't be more help KY Steer. DL - Any Red carrier is worth looking at assuming they are the right kind for me. I am not familiar with the Y070 angus bull but I will be checking him out , it would be way cool if he was real good and could move. Maybe you have found "the sleeper!"

Interesting discussion about the Red Angus! 

FWIW. I actually own 6 registered Red Angus females & my father in-law owns a Red Angus cow too.  Several of mine trace back to Cherokee Canyon & a few back to King Rob & Heavenly.  However, the best 2 Red Angus females out of the group, IMHO, trace back to none of those bulls (at least they don't show up on the certificates).  Right now, all are being bred to Lowline bulls to produce registered percentage Lowlines or what some people are now calling "Redlines".  However, if I don't sell them in the next few years, I am thinking about producing some Durham Reds or some Tarentaise X Red Angus F1's & then using those to make a 3-way or possibly even a 4-way composite or possibly go clubby.  I've got lots of ideas, just don't know how many of those ideas that I will get to try.   

Go to Leveldale's website, click on sires page, then look at'' Peak View Moet'', he's just a baby, but, he has potential. Stay away from anything clubby, and, you'll be fine, as far as making Durham Reds. Are all your Tarentaise black, now? I prefer the original color pattern, myself.

 

[TJ]

Go to Leveldale's website, click on sires page, then look at'' Peak View Moet'', he's just a baby, but, he has potential. Stay away from anything clubby, and, you'll be fine, as far as making Durham Reds. Are all your Tarentaise black, now? I prefer the original color pattern, myself.

Thanks for the heads up on Peak View Moet!  Peak View Moet looks like he would work good on these Red Angus females.  I will certainly keep him in mind if I decide to try a few Durham Reds.  I wouldn't mind seeing him in person sometime, if I do indeed try that route.  I like the fact that he is solid red & especially because he is dark red. 

Honestly, after seeing some pics of Durham Red's, I wouldn't mind trying a 3 way composite consisting of Tarentaise X Shorthorn X an Angus base (using Red Lowline or Red Angus or Lowline/ Red Angus crosses for the Angus base) & I think that a bull like Peak View Moet might work really well in that scenario.  I really like the looks of American Muscle & Jake's Proud Jazz, but I would rather stick with solid colors, that is, if the right solid red bull can be found.     

If I use anything clubby it will be on a VERY limited basis & it will only be done to produce a small handful of showsteers & I wont keep the heifers.   

Yes, most of the Tarentaise we have are either black or brownish black.  But, we still have some breed color females around here too.  If I crossed Tarentaise with Durham Red's to make a 3 way composite (50/50 British/Continental), I would use breed color Tarentaise on those Durham Red's & try to keep that composite Red.  However, right now, I am really liking these F1 Lowline X Tarentaise & my goal is to build a heard of them, so I don't know how quickly I'll be ready to do too much experimenting with another combo, but I am certainly interested. 

   

 

[red]

Welcome back TJ! Wondered where our resident Lowliner was!

Red