Why do you think really functional cattle can't also be the showring type cattle

[DL]

Oh, and by the way judges, don't place my heifer last in class, then tell everyone what a good cow she'll make. If she's last in class, she'll make a piss-poor cow!

O.K., I'm done venting now!

But do you feel better??? I keep reading about the 1200 lb cows too and wonder where they are - now I will grant you I have some big cows (really big actually) but I know I can and have downsized them in 2 generations and have a group of very moderate cows (I call them the short cows as opposed to the big cows or the teenaged cows) - my shortest cow I figured has the greatest chance of being the 1200 lb cow - she weighs 1600 and looks fabulous. So maybe the 1200 lb cow should be a song "Where have all the 1200 lb cows gone, long time passing....." (name that tune)

ELBEE - IMVHO I thought your heifer was fabulous!!

 

[Jill]

Here is how I see it! The problem lies in the old cliche', "When in doubt, frame'm out." It's not that the breeding stock are that unsound, just too large for my tastes.

Everyone talks about this "#1250" cow! Guys, I don't own a cow that light. My 2-yearolds only weight #1000 at calving time, but mature out well over #1250. Most of the Shorty show heifers have a yearling weight more than #1250. 

Traveling around in the "power" states, I see a lot more ton cows, than #1250's.

Just last week a judge rolled one of our heifers, his reason, "too short, too heavily muscled, and too over fed". That's why you don't see me dragging cattle around the show circuit, "when in doubt, frame,m out", I'm already beat!

I think that is a real problem in the Shorthorn breed.  We started out this year showing a nice moderate framed March Shorthorn heifer, I think she was reserve at the Expo, by the time we got to the Classic they were dumping her because everything else in class was HUGE we actually had someone tell us we should have made her a May.  I don't want 8-9+ frame cattle and that is what the rest of the group will end up with, they will eat as much as 2 normal sized cows just to keep enough condition on them to keep a calf alive. Our average cow I'm guessing is between 1300-1600 pounds, I don't want ton cows, they just aren't productive.  I don't see it near as big a problem in the other breeds we show, but there is a huge variation in the Shorthorn breed right now

 

[ROAD WARRIOR]

Oh, and by the way judges, don't place my heifer last in class, then tell everyone what a good cow she'll make. If she's last in class, she'll make a piss-poor cow!

O.K., I'm done venting now!

I'm with you on this one Elbee, nothing is worse than your stated senerio. Really puts a burr under my saddle and makes the judge look like an idiot as well.

 

[ROAD WARRIOR]

I think it is the judge(s) {here come da}

There is a certain phenotype that is popular among some - the short fat hairy straight legged little "puds" that look a lot like steers in a dress - some people like them and they do win...chances are that once the dress is off they don't do much.

Then there is the free moving, deep sided, moderate framed high capacity female that looks like she will be cow - sometimes she wins and she will do well in the pasture - she didn't have to wear a dress to win but she did get her hair done.

And then of course there is politics .....although I can't imagine George Bush on a halter  ;D ;D

DL - surely you don't think that there is any politically motivated judges left. I thought all of the judges that picked sub par cattle to win were just ignorant or blind or something.

 

[Show Heifer]

First off: Chambero, you mentioned you used maine in your herd and you sold many of your heifers as commercial replacements for good money (at least I thought your average was impressive), I am hoping and assuming you were either lucky enough to avoid ALL the pha carriers before the test, or you tested the heifers before you sold them????

Now on to the question: First off, I dont' pick my cows according to one mans opinion on one given day. I actually don't pick my cows based on the show ring. I have a brain, I try and use it to the best of my ability (which sometimes isn't that good, but at least it is MY mistake!!)  No one has touched on the fact that show heifers have to be FAT. I don't mean plump or well fed, but FAT, not to mention hairy. And as with any other mammal, the first place fat is stored is the mammary glands (udder). I haven't had much luck with fat producing milk.  Also haven't seen a pampered, kept in the cooler, babied every day of her life heifer, actually be able to push hard enough to HAVE a calf.  I love those quotes that vary from "she was a show heifer, so she gave up too early,  and I helped her out...but it wasn't a hard pull." or "she took one look at the calf and ran away...but she was a show heifer so she was easy to tie up and get the calf started." or "her udder sure LOOKED full, but apparently the calf starved to death. Too bad, she was a great show heifer."  Can't tell you how many times the whole herd is bred, but the show heifer is open. Doesn't matter how great she is, if she can't reproduce, doesn't matter if she won XYZ show. But of course, when they they have a hard time breeding, or don't carry a pregnancy,  we then flush them, and make many show heifer replacements that don't breed. yea.... Do they even ask if the heifer is bred anymore. Even if they did, I am sure they all would be!!!
And the hair thing....don't know about anywhere else, but today it was 94, with 78% humidity. My slick haired cattle are under a tree panting.....I am sure the hairy ones would be dead, but of course, maybe they are all in a cooler!!!
Don't get me started on the feet and leg thing....half of the winning steers and heifers can hardly walk in a soft level show ring, let alone a rough, uneven, hilly pasture where they have to walk a mile to water, and walk around looking for grass.  I mention the steers because SOMETHING has to produce those things and it sure wasn't a cow with flex in her hocks!!!
The frame thing isn't going on here. In fact, just the opposite almost. Usually the tallest heifer isn't even in the top half of the class.
Maybe to even out the politic thing we need to draw numbers to get the heifer you show. Then the points are divided between  the showman and the heifer.  That also might get others helping another showman getting an animal ready!!

To me, the show ring is a beauty pagent. If it is pretty, it wins. Honestly know, how many Ms. USA or Ms. Universe turn out to be doctors, or highly educated professional folks? Not knocking being a great human in other aspects of life, but ya get my point? The beauty wins, regardless of what is below. The pretty, fluffy, every hair in place, head.
I appreciate a good show animal. Just like I admire the display bulls at Denver, but would I own one? No. Do I think they are pretty, and take a bunch of hard work to create? Yes, but again....wouldn't want one in my pasture.

Yes, there are exceptions to every rule, but it is a sad state when the exception is the one that makes the money. :'(

 

[DL]

RW - well ya know I sure could be wrong - they might just be stupid or shortsighted and that there is nothing about politics involved! !

I was thinking about this as I was driving today - and I guess for me it boils down to - if I like the animal it is really irrelevant what the judge may say - sure winning is nice - but I would rather have a bunch of good cows than a bunch of purple ribbons (and how many directors chairs does a person really need??)

It seems like many people are chasing the "great one" - they may not have a program - they are chasing the illusive - if they don't know what they like or what they want - chances are they won't be happy no matter what.

 

[ROAD WARRIOR]

DL - I wish I could talk my banker into letting me trade ribbons and banners or trophies in against my interest payments (ouch!) I think you are probably right that a lot of people are so busy chasing the next "great one" that they lose sight of where their own program is going. Don't get me wrong I'm always looking for the next great one too but IMHO you have to look through all of the hype, glits and glammor associated with the so called greats and see if it will compliment your program. Several of the bulls in our breed that I consider "Great ones" were never promoted or maybe not have been politically correct enough for out and out name recognition. Get a picture of where you are going with your program and stick to your guns. Fads will come and go, to be successful you have to maintain your focus. I read somewhere once that the average life span of a purebred opperation is 7 years, pretty short lifespan considering how long it takes to get your genetics close to where you want to.

 

[NHR]

Here is how I see it! The problem lies in the old cliche', "When in doubt, frame'm out." It's not that the breeding stock are that unsound, just too large for my tastes.

Everyone talks about this "#1250" cow! Guys, I don't own a cow that light. My 2-yearolds only weight #1000 at calving time, but mature out well over #1250. Most of the Shorty show heifers have a yearling weight more than #1250. 

Traveling around in the "power" states, I see a lot more ton cows, than #1250's.

Just last week a judge rolled one of our heifers, his reason, "too short, too heavily muscled, and too over fed". That's why you don't see me dragging cattle around the show circuit, "when in doubt, frame,m out", I'm already beat!

I agree here. My 6.5 frame score cattle are weighing between 1400 and 1600. They dint have thick fronts, in matter of fact they are what I consider to be the perfect size with the perfect condition because they are calving and weaning good calves. They all have good heavy bones which keeps them going when they are heavy bred, they all milk exceptionally well.

Now on the Show Ring side of things. We have ran across a lot of folks who must have lost their calves in the back pasture for 2 or 3 months because there sure are some big framed cattle in the ring with us at times. We had a heifer beat us at one show that was stated to be a January 2006 with ours being a November 2005. The January heifer was at least 6 inches taller then our heifer. The judged used the January talking about its growth. Well I know what the frame score is of our heifer and after doing the math the January heifer would have to be in the 8 to 9 range. The judge who i know came by to see us after the show and was telling to us about why he used the other heifer. I asked him if he wanted frame score 8 cattle in is cow herd and he immediately said no. Then I pointed out to him that he just used one as champion. He didn't believe me first so i did the math for him. He was kind of shocked. I saw him judging another show a few months later and notice him getting close up behind the cattle and looking to where they came up to him, I could tell that he was doing math in is head and even asked a few of the showmen if they knew the frame score of their cattle. He did not use it as sole reason for placing but he did criticize the frame score of few heifers. He gave an explanation of how he evaluates cattle beginning from the ground up.

I could tell he had gone back and re-evaluated how he should be judging and placing cattle.

 

[knabe]

this is probalby going to sound ridiculous, but in the horse industry, cutting and working cow in particular, in the bigger shows, there are 5 judges, hi and low thrown out.  they all have a card they need to get and are subject to sanction, and have to take classes or updates to retain their card so the associations can get on the same page.  obviously for cattle, environment plays a bigger role in what is appropriate, as well as personal preference, but wouldn't it be great if there was a tie for first between a larger framed cow, and a smaller framed cow, all else being equal?  when weighing cattle, it would seem simple to gather a frame score for appropriate classes such as heifer classes so the judge had a sheet and didn't have to calculate.  it should be that the show cattle has more of an influence on what is ideal breeding stock, taking into account what chambero has stated.  if the date of birth, frame score is such an issue, participants should demand a change.  it seems a reasonable request to help "level" the hips.

 

[NHR]

Alright I made it to Jr Member level of post!


I was kind of shocked at the Shorthorn Jr Nationals that no measurements were taken on the heifers. This was our first Shorthorn jr Nationals but another former jr had told us that they would weigh, measure and pull EPD's of the animals for the judge to have. I found out it had been a while since he had shown in a Jr National. I do wish they would do this but i am just a lowly member.

Do other jr Nationals go through the measurement process or has this been totally abandoned?

My heifer    My heifer after weeks of brushing and rinsing  O0

 

[Show Heifer]

I wonder what good weighing and hip height does in shows.....doesn't that actually HURT the honest? If I have an animal (bull or heifer) that is an honest growthy animal and she is a March, isn't her showing against Januarys that have the same measurements actually HURT my heifer?
Wouldn't it be better to just have everyone BE HONEST with DOB's??  Maybe have those "wonderful breed representives" that go to all the sales and blow smoke and cheerlead, actually EARN some of their money and spot check DOB's on farms.

I realize having everyone being honest is just a pipe dream, but can't I dream??? :

 

[clifflem]

This is a good thread and provokes a lot of thought.  After thinking about it for a while, I guess the way I see it is something like this--- I have been involved in the showring thing since 1975 and have been in the cattle business since way before that.  I have seen the smaller ones when we started ( I showed a Shorthorn steer in OKC at the spring show in 76 that weighed 1000 lbs and was in the light heavyweight class. 2 classes lighter and 1 heavier class) Then the big ones--Frame score 8,9, and bigger.  We passed a lot of good ones going from one kind to the other.  We always tried to stay in the middle of the road with our cows and used bulls to go whatever direction we wanted to.  We always kept in mind that those that didn't make the show ring needed to be something we could get top market price out of.

I have noticed that over the years, cattle that were structurally sound and had some rib and body capacity usually came to the top of the classes most of the time.  I have always tried to look at cattle from the ground up and if they weren't good footed and sound legged, I usually didn't try to keep them.  One of my mentors in the cattle business that I showed a lot of breeding cattle for always asked me when I would tell him about a young bull or two I have run across while showing or looking at cattle--"What are his feet like?"  It was something I got to looking at a lot and some of these cattle we are using now are not cattle that I like.  Large bone, big bodies on little tiny, contracted feet.  They won't last long as mature cattle if they have to travel much to feed and water. 

I think there are good cattle in all frame sizes and we just have to choose the ones that fit our environment.  I know I have seen some impressive cattle in the midwest that I really liked and admired that were working well for the guys raising them.  I bought several of these over the years and they didn't work near a well in our country in NW OK when they have to cover lots of acres to get enough to eat and had trouble getting bred back on time.  The same cow is not going to be ideal for everyone and you just have to get the ones that work for you. 

 

[DLD]

Very well said cliffelm.

 

[Telos]

I have done my share of complaining and felt that some judges were missing the boat when they evaluated show cattle. That was well over a decade or so ago, though. Maybe, because of structural issues we have really focused our attention towards sounder, more practical cattle. I have been impressed the last several years as to how most judges are evaluating these cattle and think they are now doing a very good job for the most part. I still feel like the the commercial cow calf operator is ignored  when selecting these show steers and perhaps we need to have a better understanding and become more considerate of their needs. I do feel, with just the shear design and overall mass of many champion steers that it would suggest a heavier birthweight and not practical in the commercial sector of our industry.

I hope you cow operators could chime on this relationship re to birthweights and show steer production. I'm curious and would like to know your thoughts.

 

[DL]

I realize having everyone being honest is just a pipe dream, but can't I dream??? :

Sure but when you wake up it will still be reality!

 

[JbarL]

I like the concept of the slick steer shows. Not much much "pretty", but some good steers that are easier to evaluate. At the same time I really liked looking at those champion steers at the NAILE this last year.

I have misspelled definitely at least six times this year. I can do better.  Spell check would help, but keep forgetting to use it.   ))

i agree with telos....i like slick cattle also.......tone, movement, and frame just seem to be more easier for me to "see" and i seem to appreciate
a slick cows looks more.  it seems like  sometimes folks will finally add    x + y  to there stuff and get exactually what "they" were looking for, and
feel quite proud of the success of there fore thought... but seem qutie disappointed when the judges dont "see" and share the same excitement
over  the cow that they felt was "perfect"......i think a functional cow is a perfect cow.......and the best one you think is the best is the one that
you took to the fair.  i have enough on my plate keeping my foundation herd headed in a sound/ healthy/ conformation/ idirection......trying to add
something like hair.....is not a funcitional direction for me at this time....it is a cosmetic direction...and i am just not qualified to recoginize and breed towards that direction.
if it is the judges "perfect cow" your looking for then  you'd just have that to go on his past prefrences is judging.....as long as they believe hairy is something that is "requiired"...to win the bigs ones  then  slickys just cant compete..i guess........jbarl

 

[garybob]

To answer the original question, I think that show cattle (from genetics and breeding programs revolving around the showring) can't perform, is based on experiences I had as a breeder.Dang it, every time I tried a cow  that was sired from a show bull ( even if she looked the part of a good calf raiser), she weaned the sorriest calf, or didn't breed back.

 

[Telos]

Garybob - It  always seemed my best looking cows always had fertility issues. I could have bought a house with ten acres with all the cows I've sent to the salebarn for a discount because I couldn't get them rebred.

 

[DL]

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder - I sure like a field full of pregnant cows and heifers rather than a hairy fat unbred heifer

 

[jimmyski]

I guess I will chime in on this one starting out from a judges point of view and then I will discuss it also from what I see as a commercial cattleman's point of view.

As a judge, I try every time to start from the ground up. If a heifer does not fill her tracks or is too strait off of either end then she doesn't belong at the top of a class. However, at the same time I don't want a cow that tracks up underneath herself and rounds out of her hip. So there is a fine line between having too much one way and not enough the other. At the same time, it is important for me that a heifer have enough depth of body, ribshape, and fleshing ability as well. This is almost more difficult than evaluating structure, which I was told is the hardest thing for a person to pick up. WAY too many heifers are being overfed to the point that they have pones like a fat steer and start depositing fat in the udder. So I have been known to get on my soapbox and maybe use a heifer that might be a little straighter off either end than I would preferr, but at least she is in a decent body conditon score. There are many bred heifers that are fatter than the heifers in the market class but that's for another topic.  In regards to the comment about a heifer going on to be a good cow and being low in class, there are many factors that could influence this for me. Alot of times I'll use this with a heifer that's in a good and deep class, that maybe a little greener or maybe not have as much muscle or overall ribshape as the heifers a head of her. Just because she doesn't have exactly what that judge is looking for that day, doesn't mean that later on down the road she couldn't develop into a solid cow. Just that day she wasn't looking or at her best.

Now, I'll try and put on the other hat and be a commercial cattleman. It's really frustrating for me to go and watch shows in which a heifer wins just because of who is on the halter, or what her EPD's are, or even what her bloodlines are. Now, I realize this doesn't always happen, thank goodness. But, I go and watch the Junior Angus Shows at Denver, KC and Louisville, and the ones I see winning would never make it on a commercial opperation. They seem to be the largest frames, heaviest conditioned females, that have the latest and greatest bloodlines. I know hardly anyone has 1200 pound cows anymore, but honestly most of ours fit in that 1150-1350 pound range at a frame score 4.5 to 6.  So it's hard for me to go to one of these shows and think that there is going to be something there that will produce the type of cattle that I'm looking for, and that is the most frustrating part.

Enough of my rambling and soap box. This has been an interesting topic and I like hearing other people's opinions without everyone jumping on each others case. Keep up the good work. This has quickly become my favorite cattle information site.