Why do you think really functional cattle can't also be the showring type cattle

[cowgirl]

I have done my share of complaining and felt that some judges were missing the boat when they evaluated show cattle. That was well over a decade or so ago, though. Maybe, because of structural issues we have really focused our attention towards sounder, more practical cattle. I have been impressed the last several years as to how most judges are evaluating these cattle and think they are now doing a very good job for the most part. I still feel like the the commercial cow calf operator is ignored  when selecting these show steers and perhaps we need to have a better understanding and become more considerate of their needs. I do feel, with just the shear design and overall mass of many champion steers that it would suggest a heavier birthweight and not practical in the commercial sector of our industry.

I hope you cow operators could chime on this relationship re to birthweights and show steer production. I'm curious and would like to know your thoughts.

I don't think there are many commercial cow-calf producers that pay much attention to the show ring.  Because they are looking for good, sound, practical cattle that will preform in many different environments.  They don't want to call a vet to preform a C-section on 1/2 there cows to pull out that 150lb wonder.  Come on....you want a sleep all night cow that will have her calf and within a matter of minutes is up and sucking all by itself.  The easiest way to make money on cattle is to be efficient.  Time wise --not having to bottle feed every calf that is abandoned by its stupid mother and you want a cow or calf that is efficient on feed, that will put on the most pounds for the least amount of money.    It is a very simple concept that seems to have been lost for some people.  Sorry I just had to get that off my chest.  I apologize in advance.
So I don't think you can compare show cattle to your average seedstock or commercial cattle.  I would be nice if we could combine those two worlds, but the trouble is they are--"two different worlds"

 

[cowgirl]

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder - I sure like a field full of pregnant cows and heifers rather than a hairy fat unbred heifer

I will defiantly drink to that!! ;D

 

[DLD]

I know people who'll say things like they'll never make a show steer if you don't have to pull 'em, or if they don't weigh 100# or 110#. Personally, I haven't seen that relationship in ours or the herds I help with - yeah, some of the big ones make stout show steers, but so do some of the 80# ones. The percentage of either group that goes on to be competitive in the show ring isn't much different, but the percentage of >100# ones that end up with structural issues and/or being harder feeders is higher than the<100#ers . Someone asked earlier why there are so many show steers with 100#+ birthweights and so many bulls with lower bw's. Hopefully all those 100# + calves are getting cut - I know I darn sure don't want one for a bull. And, I actually think the idea that high bw's equals stouter show cattle has become so prevalent that some people are exaggerating them upwards on their steer prospects, although I've sold calves to many of the biggest names in the show steer world, and never once has anyone asked me what a steer prospects birthweight was. Another factor might be that many club calf producers have small numbers of cows and tend to keep them quite a bit fatter than most other folks do. As for our operation, we attempt to breed everything for unassisted births - not that we don't watch closely and help whenever it's needed, but we refuse to purposely breed a cow or heifer knowing that assistance or possibly even a c-section will be expected.

I truly have a problem with people who believe that show cattle can't be functional, and that functional cattle can't show. The reason there is a separation is that they keep insisting that there has to be and they refuse to look across that invisible line to see if there's anything on the other side that just might work for them. Yet if we decided tomorrow that we weren't going to try to raise show cattle anymore, just go strictly commercial, probably the only thing that would change is the amount of AI that we do. I wouldn't feel the need to sell off all or even part of my cows (well, maybe the ones that'd bring a big premium) or my bulls and I wouldn't change the breeds or type of cattle that I raise. What we've been doing works at the sale ring as well the show ring (around 15 premium sale steers and 3 breed champions or reserves at OK and TX majors in the past couple years). The same has been said by Chambero and many, many others.

I have a good friend that sells 100+ bulls a year, mostly to commercial breeders. His kids show heifers, but he's having a really hard time convincing himself that it's worthwhile to AI at least a few cows a year based a little more on phenotype and a little less on epd's. He's convinced that those epd's, and having his catalog read just like every other sale catalog in that breed will make him more money than cattle that are phenotypically pleasing, and he hasn't been willing to look outside the box even just a little for something that's acceptable in both areas. Just in the last couple of years he has tried a little, and is really excited about where it's going for him. I'm willing to bet alot that those bull calves that are nicer balanced and more attractive and have good epd's are going to sell right with (or more likely, better than) those big epd'd, more popular pedigreed but plainer looking ones.

 

[Telos]

Well said DLD. You and Chambero are the cowmen who do this extensively and some like me are, for the most part, just observers. I have always thought the showring needs to reflect the mission of the whole industry and be tightly integrated to all the economically important aspects of both a breeding program and the commercial industry.

With that said, I have seen and heard  breeders calving out the Heat Wave's and the Full Flush's and from what I've experienced is that the boys come out from 95 to 110+. That has been the norm. The 70 and 80 pounders are not as common. Bone size appears to be associated to birth weight from my limited experience, too. I understand ( from what I've been told from some other club calf breeders) that pelvic size is also of some concern with regard to the females.

Look DLD, when you concentrate your efforts to produce an ideal looking show steer you're just bond to ignore many of the other traits. Show steer production has never been about balanced trait selection. One thing, I think I know, is that it usually takes a very good hard working female to produce these good show steers.

Now... Let's say, we take the king of calving ease, Ali. I think he's capable of producing your competitive steer, but you better have something like Full Flush  or Heat Wave in the momma's pedigree.

Just my thought for the morning before tackling the Kitchen. This probably didn't make any sense, but it will make my day easier to get it off my chest. I hope you can at least get a good laugh out of it.

 

[DLD]

I can't argue with what you're saying Telos - no doubt, commercial producers don't want to be using Heat Wave, but on the other hand a little Ali could do alot of 'em a world of good. The extremes on either side aren't going to appeal to the others, but there are cattle out there that can work in alot of different scenarios, if they're given a chance. Those are the kind I try to produce, and the kind I think the showring is gravitating towards.

Yeah, I know I haven't produced a major show grand champion, but on the other hand I know alot of people that have many times what I do in dollars invested in their cow herd (and that see their vet more than their spouse during calving season) that can't claim the modest success in the show ring that we can. No doubt some can claim much more, but I'm willing to bet that most of those that can will be able to show you a set of cows that would appeal to 'most anyone in any aspect of the cattle business. They may use some bulls that throw big birthweights or structural issues, but those guys know that it's for the most part a terminal cross. Cows lacking in soundness, fertility, productivity and longevity don't make anybody money in the long run, and the truly succesful long-time club calf breeders are no exception.

 

[Will]

I can't argue with what you're saying Telos - no doubt, commercial producers don't want to be using Heat Wave, but on the other hand a little Ali could do alot of 'em a world of good. The extremes on either side aren't going to appeal to the others, but there are cattle out there that can work in alot of different scenarios, if they're given a chance. Those are the kind I try to produce, and the kind I think the showring is gravitating towards.

Yeah, I know I haven't produced a major show grand champion, but on the other hand I know alot of people that have many times what I do in dollars invested in their cow herd (and that see their vet more than their spouse during calving season) that can't claim the modest success in the show ring that we can. No doubt some can claim much more, but I'm willing to bet that most of those that can will be able to show you a set of cows that would appeal to 'most anyone in any aspect of the cattle business. They may use some bulls that throw big birthweights or structural issues, but those guys know that it's for the most part a terminal cross. Cows lacking in soundness, fertility, productivity and longevity don't make anybody money in the long run, and the truly succesful long-time club calf breeders are no exception.

I agree completely with your last sentence,  most of the clubby herds I have been to that have been around a while have a very functional set of cows.

 

[Show Dad]

OK first please let no one take what I am about to say personally.

I think if we look at what the "show ring" is today and what it was in the past we might just understand the "why" to the question. In the past (turn of the last century) the ring was a great tool in promoting ones cattle. It got your name out there as being a producer of great cattle (remember the internet wasn't around). This was because judges were not academic types but buyers. There was much more pressure in the "ring" to judge for final product. Today there is more pressure on look. Why else would there be judges commenting on hair (the most worthless part of market cattle) amount and quality (fess up how many of you have cool rooms). Today the ring is a tool to access a market all to itself, show cattle. The evaluation process judges are using are not in parallel to the meat market but headed for convergence for more of a pageant type market niche.

It would make sense to separate the two worlds or expectation for the "ring." One being a "show" ring and the other being a "market" ring. No different then different classes of racing cars based on 6 or 8 cylinders. Maybe we have just reached that point. If your are breeding for competition then let the "show" ring be you venue. Or if you are breeding for the consumer market then the "market" ring is for you. One uses all the adhesive for the hair and fitting. The other for evaluation of all the variables that affect putting meat on the plates of the consumer. One a sport, the other business.

Let's face it, if it wasn't for the current trend in the show ring a few breeds wouldn't have the popularity they currently enjoy. While other breeds might become so dominate that it actually narrows the gene pool. So do these  show breeds offer or add value to the consumer or producer? Do the other breeds add something to the sport of showing cattle?

Think on it. Maybe, just maybe, it's time to go our separate ways.
(I say all this with love for all cattle and their people. Bovines Rock! 8))

 

[garybob]

OK first please let no one take what I am about to say personally.

I think if we look at what the "show ring" is today and what it was in the past we might just understand the "why" to the question. In the past (turn of the last century) the ring was a great tool in promoting ones cattle. It got you name out there as being a producer of great cattle (remember the internet wasn't around). This was because judges were not academic types but buyers. There was much more pressure in the "ring" to judge for final product. Today there is more pressure on look. Why else would there be judges commenting on hair (the most worthless part of market cattle) amount and quality (fess up how many of you have cool rooms). Today the ring is a tool to access a market all to itself, show cattle. The evaluation process judges are using are not in parallel to the meat market but headed for convergence for more of a pageant type market niche.

It would make sense to separate the two worlds or expectation for the "ring." One being a "show" ring and the other being a "market" ring. No different then different classes of racing cars based on 6 or 8 cylinders. Maybe we have just reached that point. If your are beeding for competition then let the "show" ring be you venue. Or if you are beeding for the consumer market then the "market" ring is for you. One uses all the adhesive for the hair and fitting. The other for evaluation of all the variables that affect putting meat on the plates of the consumer. One a sport the other business.

Let's face it, if it wasn't for the current trend in the show ring a few breeds wouldn't have the popularity they currently enjoy. While other breeds might become so dominate that it actually narrows the gene pool. So do these  show breeds offer or add offer to the consumer or producer? Do the other breeds add something to the sport of showing cattle?

Think on it. Maybe, just maybe it's time to go our separate ways.
(I say all this with love for all cattle and their people. Bovines Rock! 8))

Thank you, for advocating the continued demise of functional cattle. It's people like you who continue to contribute to this nonesense! In the Shorthorn breed, this "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em attitude" has ruined us, while down in Australia, those guys have stepped up their performance testing to the point that Shorthorn Bulls are the preferred terminal cross for both muscle AND marbling, in the toughest environments.

 

[ELBEE]

Show Dad, that's "Deep and real".

Gary Bob, I ain't-a-gonna join'em!

 

[Show Heifer]

I have never heard a feeder calf buyer say "Gosh, what nice hair" or "might be a bit straight, but that's ok" or "the grooming on these calves is impecable"
I have never heard a show judge say "I think his grade/yield is going to be good" or "This calf will really make someone some money" or "Is he preconditioned and source verified"

So maybe, the worlds can cross at times, and maybe not.....I just do what makes me money....and for the most part that is NOT hairy, straight, goose fronted calves. But I do AI for some clubbies and hope they are good enough to show, cause if not, I am going to take a BIG hit at the salebarn!!

 

[Show Dad]

GB - I think you misunderstood my point. I have no desire to contribute to the demise of functional cattle. What I see as the outcome of the two distinct camps separating is that the functional will continue to be what is connected to the real world. While the other if it will not anchor itself to something more than fluff will go it's own way much like Emu's. How can there be any demise to functional cattle by going our own way? What one says as giving up is actually saying that the other is going to be irrelevant to the beef industry if they don't get real.

Judging needs to keep pace with the market as well. There is no way to stay together unless it changes. Get rid of the no hands on, no experience academicians as judges. All they have is the ability to put together words that don't really say anything. There needs to be a rating system for judges that compares their placings with real carcass data or ultrasound information.

In my opinion functional cattle are it while those that aren't, well are, can I say, disfunctional?! ;D   (lol)

 

[knabe]

not just to say there are exceptions to the rule, there has been some really noteworthy acamedician judges, i can think of two right of the top, jarold callaghan, bill jacobs.  it's not the judges fault, it's whose selecting the judges, just like it's not the lawyers fault for awarding damages to people who spill hot coffee, it's the juror's, which is, guess who, YOU, US, we reward it by rewarding them.  change it.  get on the selection committee.  i say get rid of the no experience jocks and "whoever" else as judges as well.  pick the pickers and it will change.

 

[jimmyski]

I have never heard a show judge say "I think his grade/yield is going to be good" or "This calf will really make someone some money"

Show Heifer,
reading these two statements disturbs me quite a bit. As judge of Market Animals, it is our job to pick an animal that is sufficient in both the amount of muscle that he has and the amount of finish. If I do not think that a steer has either of these, no matter how pretty or how long his hair he absolutely will not win. However, I will agree with you that these two topics are never covered enough. I like to talk about cattle being acceptable from a Market Readiness standpoint or if their genetics allow should be safe into the choice grade. These are direct drivers of profitability. So if you have never had the opportunity to show under a judge that places more importance on the finished product rather that the look and hair on an animal (I still think structure and balance are important, structure even more so), then you are missing out.

 

[DLD]

I have never heard a show judge say "I think his grade/yield is going to be good" or "This calf will really make someone some money"...

If you ever participate in and/or watch major market shows, and you haven't heard judges talk about grade and yield or profitability, it's no wonder you're disenchanted with the system (not just you ShowHeifer, but anyone who agrees they've never heard that). Most judges at market shows do talk about and look for high yielding, good grading cattle... in this part of the world at least.

 

[red]

Boy, looks like a hot topic & I'm getting in here late.
I want functional heifers that can go on to be good show cattle but can also raise a calf without falling over. I've had train wrecks here by not watching my breeding lines & producing cattle that are too straight or bowlegged. Those go to the feedlot never to be heard of again. I like to see bulls walk & look at their history on whether they will produce functional cattle.
Don't believe anyone here is wanting to see good structure fly out the window for the sake of the show ring. That's putting a blanket statment on the whole club calf program. Yes, there are sires out there that aren't known for their structure but hopefully those are being used on good strutural cows.
I can see where Show Hef has a negative veiw on show cattle if she's never heard yield or grade used in a show. I've heard this used many a time & applud judges who will pick cattle that can make it to the feedbunk rather than have to have it served on a silver platter for them.
Give me good legs & feet & good hair & a good temperment & I'll be a happy camper!

Red

 

[Show Heifer]

I did see a judge say "I am going to start with this white faced steer today....he has adequate finish..." and I was impressed....but then he continued..."the steer in second, and third are finished better than the steer standing in first, and they are a close pair, but just couldn't overcome the first steer...."
And besides that, well, I have indeed missed out. But that is ok, I am the one that had a heifer place second in class (and trust me I was THRILLED with second - first big time show I attended) until the judge said my heifer was more correct, deeper ribbed and was more fluid in her travels, but just didn't have enough "panashe" (spelling)....whatever!!!

Jimmyski: You sound like my kind of judge.....just never had one like you apparently!!!

And I have NEVER heard a judge comment on profitability. NEVER.  Just like I have never heard a cattle buyer mention hair.

Side note: I don't care what qualifies a judge, as along as he can do a good job and stay predictable...meaning he stays true to what he picks throughout the day or show!!!

 

[red]

That gets back to our thread about some of the strangest and/or stupidest things we've heard from a judge.

Good question though- what qualifies someone to be a livestock judge?

Red

 

[chambero]

I have never heard a show judge say "I think his grade/yield is going to be good" or "This calf will really make someone some money"...

If you ever participate in and/or watch major market shows, and you haven't heard judges talk about grade and yield or profitability, it's no wonder you're disenchanted with the system (not just you ShowHeifer, but anyone who agrees they've never heard that). Most judges at market shows do talk about and look for high yielding, good grading cattle... in this part of the world at least.

I can't remember the last terminal show I was at here in Texas that the judge didn't talk about grade and yield - even at our only remaining hair show (Ft. Worth).  The carcass contest data normally backs up their placing.  Maybe we aren't typical, but its usually the same judges that judge the big majors in the country.  Of course you aren't going to win Ft. Worth without a whole lot of hair either.  There are just too many things involved to talk about profitability -  you can lose a lot of money on a group of cattle that grade choice with good yield grades if they've gained too slow or had a good round of respiratory problems - or if you just paid too much.

Show Heifer - do you really take a beating at the sale barn on your calves out of club calf sires?  Why do you think that is?  The buyers can't know what they are.  We never have a problem with volume buyers that come into our pastures ahead of time when we tell them what we've got. 

 

[Joe Boy]

I like the slicked sheared steer contest too.  Some of those have done real well in other shows in full make up.

I do not think post legged or sickled hocked cattle are pretty or functionalable.  A post legged bull can only last a good while as an AI stud because he will break down in the pasture and do it quickly.  The same is true of calving out cows with poor leg structure and she is lost.

It is tough calving hairy calves in August that are black in this heat.

But my answer to your question is yes.  Functionalable cattle will work any where.  Heart in cattle needs to be deep to help longevity with better lungs and hearts.  Heifers need to be feminine.  Bulls need to be masculine.

 

[JbarL]

That gets back to our thread about some of the strangest and/or stupidest things we've heard from a judge.

Good question though- what qualifies someone to be a livestock judge?

Red

i think that gets back to " ALOT " of threads/topics of past .....
very sound observation and sound appoach  joe boy....jbarl