Your thoughts on the results of the National Red Angus show in Denver

[loveRedcows]

I haVe a few red cows, and am really wondering why I keep the papers.  The red deal seems to be about as viable right now as a rowboat in a typhoon. Didn't get to go to Denver, but the judge was at e regional fair a year or so back, his reason for the champion Hereford heifer-- she will raise some show steers.
A few years ago in Ft Worth, a pretty good heifer was left standing in line,  the judge was told" we don't need that kind of heifer winning"
A couple of years after that, you do the junior show right, and you can judge the open show next year.
I'm not in love with this sowing deal, but you need to promote your cattle, and the guys running the deal a more interested in making the breed fit their visions rather than the cattle talking for themselves.
When ever the breed is more interested in constant epd realignments, and a genetic base about as deep as a kiddie pool,
I had a post on another site, asking about the reds in Denver,  not 1 reply, either no one looked or no one gave a flip.
At this very minute finding semen to use is next to impossible, no mothering ability, no deep pedigree that shows some predictability, nothing but EPD, EPD, EPD.
Hey, you asked

Thanks cowman for the reply. I found it quite interesting that at the "brain trust" meeting they had speakers that basically stated that we need to stop placing so much emphasis on EPD's and breeding cattle on a computers and yet the chosen "associate judge" did nothing except make sure the right EPD's were on the papers of the winners. Personally I would love to see someone judge the cattle in the ring on their merits that day, not what a computer program is predicting their offspring might do. RW

@Cowman.  There are good predictable red bulls out there - you just don't hear about them because some of us don't follow the show circuit or jump on the bandwagons of the "hot" bulls.  As RW well knows, we have fought for years against the onslaught of the "PHd" EPD theories and for 28 years have just continued to breed what we like....functional, usuable reds.  If you're interested, I have semen on a couple of what we consider really good bulls.

@RW.  I love your comment.  The EPD craze is one of the main reasons we quit FTW, that and the "who's your daddy" politics.  EPDs can be useful but they can also be scewed & manipulated.  Shows are exactly that -- shows, and may the prettiest one win.  But, if you like what you see, do some research before you jump off the cliff chasing the winner with the hope that you can produce a winner.  As for the genetic defect situation, that's a personal decision that requires some degree of common sense.

 

[aj]

I don't think that carcass epds can be manipulated. I don't think mce could be manipulated if it is a widely used AI bull. Structural correctness..........I don't think is a problem .......out side the club calf world. I guess cause I"ve never had problems with it. I have passed on a couple bulls because of it. A ranch cow in this area has to last 7 years with a ten year max. I have never heard a local guy complain about structural correctness in a range cow. I turned 110 cows on a circle of cornstalks and they are all walking around slowly on tender toes because a windstorm shook alot of ears on the ground and they are getting alot of corn off the the ground.

 

[J2F]

 EPDs can be useful but they can also be scewed & manipulate

With any "rule" or "system" it is easy to see if someone is cheating or manipulating. Has anyone every been caught cheating or manipulating and been punished. If no one is enforcing what is written on some piece of paper somewhere then you can bet it is not being followed by everyone. Their are people out there who think "that don't apply to me" or it is only wrong if they get caught" and if they feel it gives them an advantage they are going to do it. No matter how much you try and correct this in any aspect of life it will always be that way and buyer beware.

 

[frostback]

I don't think that carcass epds can be manipulated. I don't think mce could be manipulated if it is a widely used AI bull. Structural correctness..........I don't think is a problem .......out side the club calf world. I guess cause I"ve never had problems with it. I have passed on a couple bulls because of it. A ranch cow in this area has to last 7 years with a ten year max. I have never heard a local guy complain about structural correctness in a range cow. I turned 110 cows on a circle of cornstalks and they are all walking around slowly on tender toes because a windstorm shook alot of ears on the ground and they are getting alot of corn off the the ground.

Your feeding your cows corn? Thought you dont do that?

 

[BTDT]

Six mile is probably the most HONEST and reputable red angus breeders in either the US or Canada, BAR NONE.  They bought the bull untested and assumed clean. They tested the bull, and found him to be a carrier (way back in pedigree). They now are selling TESTED CLEAN offspring and NOTHING ELSE (semen, embryo's)..  This in my mind makes them very, very honest and wanting to preserve the integrity of the breed. 
The judge placed the cattle by what was standing in front of him. That is what you people want, so that is what you got. No politics, no epd's, no pedigree, no DNA test results. DEAL WITH IT.
How about questioning the people who RAISED him?

I have been around awhile and never in my life have condoned using carriers, even when it wasn't "cool" and when I was physically threatened when I called dirty "dirty".  I have not changed my mind or opinion.  But, I can also understand the situation that 6 mile was put in. 
In my opinion, a carrier of a DNA tested defect is no different than promoting cattle with "DNA untested" defects such as big teats in uncalved heifers, huge birth weights, bad feet, bad dispositions, etc.  All can be lethal, all can lead to bankruptcy. 

Will I ever use a carrier? No.  But I also won't deal with breeders who sell big birth weights, big teats, or have bad ethics. 

The reds have a far bigger issues than a single carrier bull owned by a ethical BREEDER, who is doing the right thing.  Lets get rid of the big problems first.

 

[J2F]

http://beefmagazine.com/blog/don-t-be-fooled-pretty-bull-picture?NL=BEEF-02&Issue=BEEF-02_20130131_BEEF-02_458&[email protected]&YM_MID=1370160&sfvc4enews=42

article seem to fit the topic brought up by cowman on geno and pheno.

 

[aj]

Frostback......in production there is a practice of "grazing crop residue" the cattle do most of the work. Its an economical way to get cattle through the winter in crop production areas.

 

[Red Cow Relocators]

Six mile is probably the most HONEST and reputable red angus breeders in either the US or Canada, BAR NONE.  They bought the bull untested and assumed clean. They tested the bull, and found him to be a carrier (way back in pedigree). They now are selling TESTED CLEAN offspring and NOTHING ELSE (semen, embryo's)..  This in my mind makes them very, very honest and wanting to preserve the integrity of the breed. 
The judge placed the cattle by what was standing in front of him. That is what you people want, so that is what you got. No politics, no epd's, no pedigree, no DNA test results. DEAL WITH IT.
How about questioning the people who RAISED him?

I have been around awhile and never in my life have condoned using carriers, even when it wasn't "cool" and when I was physically threatened when I called dirty "dirty".   I have not changed my mind or opinion.   But, I can also understand the situation that 6 mile was put in. 
In my opinion, a carrier of a DNA tested defect is no different than promoting cattle with "DNA untested" defects such as big teats in uncalved heifers, huge birth weights, bad feet, bad dispositions, etc.  All can be lethal, all can lead to bankruptcy. 

Will I ever use a carrier? No.   But I also won't deal with breeders who sell big birth weights, big teats, or have bad ethics.   

The reds have a far bigger issues than a single carrier bull owned by a ethical BREEDER, who is doing the right thing.  Lets get rid of the big problems first.

BTDT - I would be interested in hearing your list of bigger problems if yolu care to share.

 

[Red Cow Relocators]

I don't think that carcass epds can be manipulated. I don't think mce could be manipulated if it is a widely used AI bull. Structural correctness..........I don't think is a problem .......out side the club calf world. I guess cause I"ve never had problems with it. I have passed on a couple bulls because of it. A ranch cow in this area has to last 7 years with a ten year max. I have never heard a local guy complain about structural correctness in a range cow. I turned 110 cows on a circle of cornstalks and they are all walking around slowly on tender toes because a windstorm shook alot of ears on the ground and they are getting alot of corn off the the ground.

AJ - I'm not sure if the carcass data can be as easily manipulated as the other traits but I'm not convinced of the accuraccies either. I personally witnessed a highly respected tech measure the same bull two different times just 10 days a part, the first scan showed a 17+ inch ribeye - the second scan 10 days later scanned a 14+ inch ribeye on the same bull. Too much variation for me to put a huge amount of faith in. Structure is incredably important to me, kid of like building a house. If you don't have a good foundation to build the house on all you have is a glorified mobile home. RCR

 

[justintime]

I don't think that carcass epds can be manipulated. I don't think mce could be manipulated if it is a widely used AI bull. Structural correctness..........I don't think is a problem .......out side the club calf world. I guess cause I"ve never had problems with it. I have passed on a couple bulls because of it. A ranch cow in this area has to last 7 years with a ten year max. I have never heard a local guy complain about structural correctness in a range cow. I turned 110 cows on a circle of cornstalks and they are all walking around slowly on tender toes because a windstorm shook alot of ears on the ground and they are getting alot of corn off the the ground.

AJ - I'm not sure if the carcass data can be as easily manipulated as the other traits but I'm not convinced of the accuraccies either. I personally witnessed a highly respected tech measure the same bull two different times just 10 days a part, the first scan showed a 17+ inch ribeye - the second scan 10 days later scanned a 14+ inch ribeye on the same bull. Too much variation for me to put a huge amount of faith in. Structure is incredably important to me, kid of like building a house. If you don't have a good foundation to build the house on all you have is a glorified mobile home. RCR

Soundness starts from the ground up. If you see problems near the ground, you don't need to bother looking any further. I will agree with the comments about Six Mile being ethical breeders of quality cattle. And they are breeders rather than just followers and multipliers like so many others are. I don't understand why there would be any contraversy about their bull winning the Denver show. If the rules and the associations do not disqualify them from showing the bull, then why on God's green earth would anyone expect a judge in a show ring to make a ruling? If  they rules allow the bull to be shown, and the judge feels he is the best bull in the Championship drive, then he should be the Champion and deserve to be. Sounds to me like some sour grapes may be involved. If you don't want a carrier bull to have the opportunity to win a show, then change the rules so he is ineligible. This is NOT a judges job!

 

[RyanChandler]

It hurts the breeds image.

Absolutely

 

[aj]

I think the carcass scans almot need to be done in contempory groups......and then you can compare in the group. Even then it would be better to compare sire 1's 100 steer progency vs sire 2's 100 steer progency. Scan on one bull could be a shaky deal I would think.

 

[shortyjock89]

I think the carcass scans almot need to be done in contempory groups......and then you can compare in the group. Even then it would be better to compare sire 1's 100 steer progency vs sire 2's 100 steer progency. Scan on one bull could be a shaky deal I would think.

That's an excellent idea, especially if you can get a large contemporary group from a sire in just one season.

 

[Mill Iron A]

They are supposed to be done in contemporary groups, the bigger the better.  The red angus association does welcome slaughter data, the more the better.  The reason you haven't seen many structure problems AJ is because you live in Kansas.  Flat farm ground Kansas. The other part is because you can't see the difference in feet, legs, skeleton, etc.  Further west from you deep heel, structurally sound cattle that can take the hard blows of walking on rocks and hard soil and cover large pastures are very important.  Closer to home frail boned straight legged feedlot cattle often blow out hocks in the deep mud, not sure feet matter much though in that environment.  I believe that six mile is an honest breeder, I just personally wouldn't have gone to the expense of taking a big bull to Denver if I was only going to promote clean progeny out of him.  But that is just what I would do, not saying they did wrong, I just would have done it differently.  Since it has already been brought up maybe we should list some of the problems we see with the breed.

1. extreme calving ease sires repopulating herds with small pelvis females
2.  feet
3.  chasing the black angus mentality and making big bad terminal females

Good things are..

1.Focusing on the females
2. slowly developing bulls for longevity
3.staying industry relevant by concentrating on our strengths including value in crossbreeding

There are a few things to get started  

 

[aj]

My base is non club calf Shorties and they are pretty darn sound. I think the Angus'es do have more feet trouble.

 

[aj]

Although some Shorties do have the white hoofs.....which I have heard are a softer hoof.

 

[Barry Farms]

Can you sell semen on an OS carrier? Can you register them......are they yanked if a carrier? I hate to see the Red Angus have cattle shows......I think that will wreck the breed. Maybe not a valid opinion........but it is mine.

I know what TH & PHA are but what is OS

 

[cowman 52]

Couple of things on epds, I don't have enough cows and calving is not as tight since the fires of 2 years ago, can't make the scans work dollar wise, and dang sure don't care to drive 300 miles one way to take them somewhere.
Second, the birth epd is pretty much a non factor, I'm a heck of a lot more interested in birth shape and not birth weight.  I calve a good number of heifers for others, and when I see them bred to a bold shouldered bull, I don't take them in. A 85 lb calf shaped right will fit in better than a 60 lb calf that is so fine in his make up will never make up the difference,and the commercial buyers keep shuffling him to the back of the line, just never enough mass to suit. I really don't care to ai and the have to make steers out of what I get.

 

[Aussie]

I think the carcass scans almot need to be done in contempory groups......and then you can compare in the group. Even then it would be better to compare sire 1's 100 steer progency vs sire 2's 100 steer progency. Scan on one bull could be a shaky deal I would think.

AJ I would say 90% of seedstock producers here scan their contemporary groups of bulls prior to sale I am surprised that is not the case over there. However the scan data does not always correlate or change EVBs

 

[CAB]

Can you sell semen on an OS carrier? Can you register them......are they yanked if a carrier? I hate to see the Red Angus have cattle shows......I think that will wreck the breed. Maybe not a valid opinion........but it is mine.

I know what TH & PHA are but what is OS

http://redangus.org/genetics/dna-tools/defects/OS
Here's a link to a summary of the defect through the Red Angus Ass. Web-site.