Your thoughts on the results of the National Red Angus show in Denver

[shortyjock89]

Really? 

 

[shortyjock89]

A reserve division calf at both NAILE and NWSS this year cost 13k. I know that's not cheap, but that's not terribly expensive for a national show.  A division champ at both cost 19k.  Get your facts straight.

 

[Red Cow Relocators]

I have read the rules and there is nothing about a show animal having to be defect free in the red angus or any other breed for that matter.  The bull was good and he should have won based on show qualifications.
No one tried to cover up the fact that it was a carrier. No one lied. No one covered it up.
A show, in many cattleman's opinion and yours too, is based solely on appearance "on that day". You do not seem to think EPD's should be used, nor should pedigree. So defect status shouldn't be either.

If defect carriers are not allowed to show, then they should not be allowed to be sold, and not be allowed to be AI sires or donor cows.  The maine, shorthorn, and angus shows would be nothing but a few animals if carriers were not allow to show.

The reds at Denver were good. A few shouldn't have been there, but overall the Canadian cattle were great.  There seems to be some new players and they knocking on the door of success.  That says alot about the breed and the bright future for the reds. 

Denver is overated as the "National" red angus show.  It is just another show, numbers aren't as big as some other shows so the competition is the same as most other shows.

As I stated earlier, the breeders did NOTHING wrong by exhibiting the bull in Denver. They are one of Canadas premier breeders and rightfully so. I guess my thoughts were more geared towards the amount of contaversy that a "dirty" bull winning has caused. The American association has been pretty adament about constantly requiring testing for most known defects in the R A breed and I'm somewhat surprised that they didn't have a rule against showing carrier animals already on the books. If I'm not mistaken the Canadian association will not register carrier animals at all.
As far as judging the cattle on EPD's, I think there may be too much emphasis placed on "Estimated" data, especially with some of the manipulation of data that is turned in. My thoughts are that the animal should be judged on what qualities it has on that day, not on what it's progeny may or may not do years down the road. I've seen some pretty big numbered animals fall clear out of bed when their progeny start hitting the ground.
As far as Denver being overated as the National show, maybe it is. But it is about the only show that draws many cattle from north of the border and they definately impact the outcome of the shows. They will be going back to the old system of rotating the National show around to different regions of the country like they used to a few years ago. RCR

 

[cowman 52]

A reserve division calf at both NAILE and NWSS this year cost 13k. I know that's not cheap, but that's not terribly expensive for a national show.  A division champ at both cost 19k.  Get your facts straight.

My facts are just fine, if you want to compete in the shorthorn deal, your pockets better be deep, if they aren't you are just gun wadding to all the others.
Do you see any new shorthorn operations, do you see winning cattle that are of some capable cow man from out in the middle of nowhere, once maybe but no more.
Most  people can't spend 13 k on a calf to take home and hope we can sell a 7500 calf out of, on a good day, and more than likely a 2500 steer to the 4H kids, and just hope they can compete.

 

[RyanChandler]

Bar carriers from registration. It's an embarrassment to the cattle industry. 

 

[shortyjock89]

So all the new operations in other breeds just magically appear? No big money involved? Right.  If you want to win at the highest level, you either have to raise cattle that are that good, or buy them.  National shows are not a 4-H show or a county fair.  

 

[cowman 52]

And you continue to make my point, how many of these big money operations would you buy from?  The Hereford operation that just dispersed, sold truck after truck load of cattle, did you ever hear of one of those sales hitting for their new owner?
The people selling cows and bulls are kinda like trading cars at the " we toke the note" place, after you buy, they really are just about done with you,
The management is always some person who has been at x place, the banker screwed us and we had to disperse, Y place, and the animal health commission found *****}and we had to sell out, z place and the land became worth too much to raise cows on.---- and so on
The reason for their demise is always something other than knowing a good cow from a sorry one.
You want to buy a show bull, first a budget if you are like most of us, second find a critter that can compete, and that usually means finding a summer calf because no one calves in summer and the numbers to compete against are fewer. And number three you got to find someone who will part with said critter rather than show it themselves.
Could you go to Iowa and buy the top of the crop calf, I really doubt it, and neither can the rest of us.
We buy semen, tend to our homework, don't raise dirty pedigrees and hope one day just maybe we have a good one.

 

[shortyjock89]

I don't know that I could be the most expensive, but I can buy some of the best animals.  They're not dirt cheap, but they place higher than cattle that cost a lot more than they do. 

 

[cowman 52]

Exactly,  and why do I want to bust my *** to promote his cattle.

I'll do it to promote my own.

 

[shortyjock89]

Because they're probably quite a bit better than what you could raise previously?  I only buy cattle that I honestly think will progress my herd.  I don't just buy one because of a prefix or a name behind them. 

 

[cowman 52]

And Why will I have buyers for equal pedigree cattle of equal quality, for how much of a discount????
My wonderful personality is worth about a donut and a dr pepper at the c store.

 

[aj]

I'm suprised the defect carriers aren't banned from the ring in the Red Angus deal. Maybe its just an over sight and language hasn't been written YET. What about the black angus shows?

 

[cowman 52]

Seems the blacks have enough variation of pedigree for it not to be a problem, if you have a pedigree that is suspect, it has to be DNA tested to be registered.
Don't think the reds have the desire to take the financial hit by doing the same thing, the asterisk on the papers is a lot cheaper.

 

[Show Dad]

A breeder is someone who can help me solve problems not create them. So this particular exhibitor, though up front about the status of the bull, is just that, an exhibitor not a breeder. It would be like  promoting a bull that would produce bad milkers.

With that said, the rules are the rules, so they can show what they want. Should genetic defect status be a consideration just like EPD's or not be allowed at all. I think we should not allow bulls with fatal genetic defects to be registered, which would not allow them to show.

JMHO
SD
<alien>

 

[J2F]

A reserve division calf at both NAILE and NWSS this year cost 13k. I know that's not cheap, but that's not terribly expensive for a national show.  A division champ at both cost 19k.  Get your facts straight.

My facts are just fine, if you want to compete in the shorthorn deal, your pockets better be deep, if they aren't you are just gun wadding to all the others.
Do you see any new shorthorn operations, do you see winning cattle that are of some capable cow man from out in the middle of nowhere, once maybe but no more.
Most  people can't spend 13 k on a calf to take home and hope we can sell a 7500 calf out of, on a good day, and more than likely a 2500 steer to the 4H kids, and just hope they can compete.

Yes, yes the world is not equal. What breed can you win with a $1200 dollar animal and grass fed with min. corn. It comes down to why are you showing. If you are showing to promote your breeding program and animals and you don't want to spend the money to develop and market top end animals then you not going to sell top end calfs or win the purple at Louisville. The world is a ladder and in every industry there are steps on the ladder that every business choices to be on. It takes knowledge and money to climb that ladder. Their are Home Depots and mom and pops hardware stores, their are Krogers and mom and pops IGA's the cattle industry is no different. Your success and place on the ladder is up to you and decisions  you make. You are right not everyone chooses to spend their money on show animals to have a chance to win the purple in the show year in and year out but that's life not show cattle and your definition of "win" greatly impacts you experience at the shows. If I make a couple of business contact it is a win, if my daughter learns and makes a new friend that's a win and if we get better the next year another win.  Their is people who have a $40,000 dollar truck in the drive to pull their 150,000 dollars worth of boats and campers that all will resale for penny's on the dollar at resale. It is all about choices on how and what you want to spend your money on?  What do you enjoy and want to do? What are your goals in life?

 

[TPX]

I think its very important to note that there were at least calves out of the Champion bull in their stall that were also very good animals, this is something that can not be said for a lot of 2 year old bulls that are being showed.  In Canada there are stricter rules as far as registering carrier animals and I hope it ends up for the best.  I know that 6 mile had to test every calf out of this bull before they could register them. I know of another herd in Canada that shipped all there carrier animals to the states so that they could keep breeding and registering them with the RAAA as the CAA would not allow it anymore.

 

[herfluvr]

Have read this post with interest as we have always been interested in the RA and we are seeing them as an up and coming breed.  I am disheartened in reading a genetic carrier was rewarded in the show pen.  So I went on the RA site and was interested in their mission statement.  It reads
Red Angus Mission  http://redangus.org/association


Our mission statement outlines the purpose towards which we commit our work life.  These are the reasons for the existence of the Red Angus Association of America and it clearly describes who our customers are and what we produce as outcome benefits for them.

Our Mission is to provide our members and their customers with innovative programs and services, to continue advancing the quality, reliability and value of Red Angus and Red Angus influenced seedstock used in the commercial beef industry.

We pursue this mission to promote the economic well-being and satisfaction of our members and their customers, and to equip them to be progressive cattle producers


Hmmm..."quality,reliability and value".  Those words kind of slap you in the face.  What of those three words goes hand in hand with promoting the  breeding of a carrier animal?    To promote a bull or a heifer that has the potential to contaminate a herd gives no quality or reliablity to a breed and certainly what value does a dead calf have?

 

[SWMO]

In this world there are:

1.)  Breeders
2.) Multipliers
3.) and cow traders.  That goes in the beef industry and any other industry that you wish to examine.  It just depends on what your individual goals are.

 

[Show Dad]

Not against registering heifers that are carriers, especially in a breed that is small in numbers with a limited gene pool. But a bull that is a carrier just breeds more carriers. So I don't think they should be registered. Make him a steer!

I have bought clean cattle produced from dirty dams (that is a breeder, solving a problem).

SD
<alien>

 

[coyote]

TPX , I think I am missing something , how can one breeder continue to breed a carrier while another could not ?
Or is it a new rule that just came in?