2 strains of TH

[BAILEYFARMS]

Talked to Dr. Beaver this weekend and found out there is 2 strains of TH. If they haven't been tested in the last 18 months they could be a carrier if the have outcast or white lighting in pedigree. Thought people should know it cost me alot of money.

 

[Show Heifer]

The Outcast mutation was identified 2 years ago. From my understanding it is much more rare than the "regular mutation".  But it is nothing new. But, does go toward the importance of 100% accuracy in reporting the correct pedigree.

 

[DL]

Strains is not the usual word one uses when talking about mutations - in terms of TH there are two mutations - the Improver mutation (a deletion) and the Outcast deletion (a bigger deletion) -  both have been identified for quite some time and both are now tested for when one sends a sample for TH to either Dr B or whatever commercial lab they are using. I believe that this was covered a while ago on SP - the original test for TH only looked for the Improver mutation - now all tests look for both. The same is true for the 2 known PHA mutations.

 

[BAILEYFARMS]

As of last jan. Dr B test didn"t  check for the outcast mutation. Case in point Jazzman is a now known TH carrier.

 

[DL]

From Dr Beever July 23 2009
Used to be that Outcast TH was extremely hard to do with the Improver test, but about 2 years ago we got it to work pretty good so when a TH test is requested it is done for
both alleles.

http://www.steerplanet.com/bb/index.php?topic=11897.0

perhaps you misinterpreted what was said but if a TH test is requested thru AgriGenomics both the Improver and Outcast deletions are tested  - and have been for about 2 years. This is also true for other labs doing TH testing and when requesting PHA test both the Maine and Dexter mutations are tested

However, I am confused by your post  - TKA Outcast was born in 2001 - the Outcast mutation is extremely rare and he is believed to be the founder animal for that mutation. Jazzman, assuming I have the right bull and his pedigree is correct, was born in 2007 - his sire JPJ is THF, leaving his dam to be involved if what you say is true. His dam, apparently untested, was born in 1998 - 3 years before Outcast and her maternal grand sire is Double Stuff - a known double carrier (TH and PHA) .....

 

[ELBEE]

Dr. good to see your still "kickin'". Anything new on Shorty hydro?

 

[Show Heifer]

Maybe jazzman was ASSUMED free but not tested until someone got a TH calf.....
Trust me, the Outcast Mutation is not new, it has been around for awhile, and it has been tested for.

Don't ya just love the surprises you can get when you use "untested" animals? Gotta love surprises!! (Generic you, not you you)

 

[aj]

Hmmmm...so if the deal is true than we have some new pedigree search opportunity?

 

[aj]

I forgot...can the two th strains cross with each other to get a deformed calf or not?

 

[DL]

I forgot...can the two th strains cross with each other to get a deformed calf or not?

Hey aj - yes  it can - they call it a compound heterozygote

ELBEE - hope you are well - nothing new on Shortie hydro that I know of - but I do think I have a good picture of the bred Gizmo heifer to send you 

 

[DLD]

Maybe jazzman was ASSUMED free but not tested until someone got a TH calf.....
Trust me, the Outcast Mutation is not new, it has been around for awhile, and it has been tested for.

Don't ya just love the surprises you can get when you use "untested" animals? Gotta love surprises!! (Generic you, not you you)

 

Nope, that was not how it went.  Jazzman was tested as a calf, and came up clean.  He was extremely impressive as a baby, and was tested before he sold in a pasture bid off sale so that potential buyers would be able to decide if they wanted him for a bull or a show steer (he would have been very valuable either way).  He was retested when the th calf came along (in the past few weeks), and at that point Dr. Beevers lab came back and said he had the Outcast mutation.  He would've originally been tested less than 2 years ago, but apparently was not tested for the Outcast mutation at that time (maybe because there appears to be no connection to Outcast??? ).  The breeder and buyers thought that he had been tested and came up clean, and had no further concerns 'til the th calf came along.

As I've said before, not everyone has read every word that's been written on these forums on this subject.  There's no reason to try to make Cody (BAILEYFARMS)  or any of the other owners out to be the bad guys here.  They're trying to do the right thing by coming on here and letting us know about the bulls new status.  As he said, it's cost him alot of money already, he's just trying to keep it from costing us money, too.  Give the guy a break.

Yes, AJ and DL, this one presents a whole new mystery for the pedigree detectives.

 

[DL]

DLD - hey - how are you? I don't think anybody is trying to make anybody a bad guy but the original post is pretty confusing and I am still not sure I understand why it cost him money? Does he own the bull?

And because I am a cynical by nature when it comes to this stuff - was the first sample from the bull parentally verified? ie was the bull who he says he is and was the sample really from the bull? Does the first sample that was suppose to test clean verified to the second? This is sure a weird story .....

 

[DLD]

DLD - hey - how are you? I don't think anybody is trying to make anybody a bad guy but the original post is pretty confusing and I am still not sure I understand why it cost him money? Does he own the bull?

And because I am a cynical by nature when it comes to this stuff - was the first sample from the bull parentally verified? ie was the bull who he says he is and was the sample really from the bull? Does the first sample that was suppose to test clean verified to the second? This is sure a weird story .....

Hey DL, I'm pretty good thanks, just really busy.  Yes, Cody owns part of the bull, and it didn't come cheap.  I'm neither an owner nor the breeder, but they're all good friends of mine (and each others).  I don't want to speak out of turn - I really don't know all the exact details. 

 

[DL]

DLD - hey - how are you? I don't think anybody is trying to make anybody a bad guy but the original post is pretty confusing and I am still not sure I understand why it cost him money? Does he own the bull?

And because I am a cynical by nature when it comes to this stuff - was the first sample from the bull parentally verified? ie was the bull who he says he is and was the sample really from the bull? Does the first sample that was suppose to test clean verified to the second? This is sure a weird story .....

Hey DL, I'm pretty good thanks, just really busy.  Yes, Cody owns part of the bull, and it didn't come cheap.  I'm neither an owner nor the breeder, but they're all good friends of mine (and each others).  I don't want to speak out of turn - I really don't know all the exact details. 

Glad you are good - hope a modicum of levity sees you on occasion - sorry that the bull turned out to be a carrier - that is never a pleasant experience no matter the bull no matter the defect - but it sure is a weird story - we had the conversation about TH testing back in July - I thought at that time you had to still as for the Improver deletion - but Dr B said they had been doing both for about 2 years and do them routinely - don't have to ask. Probably human error somewhere along the line...The dam has Improver several times in addition to DS, but nothing in the dams pedigree jumps out to me in terms of crossing with Outcast's pedigree but it is too late for serious pedigree hunts... sure not much fun for Cody

 

[aj]

I was wondering what the jazzmans reg no. was? I know we had a bull that was thought to be th clean. Then we got a th calf out of him. Turns out...since he was a twin(we didn't mention it) that the results are harder to figure out. Almost seems like that if a bull has the th pattern to them and suppossedly a th test was done, well maybe a second test should be done. Funny things are always happening in the club calf world.

 

[Show Heifer]

DLD. I wasn't implying any wrong doing by anyones part. But sometimes it takes awhile for those "rats in the wood pile" to come to surface. For instance, in the angus breed there was a heavily promoted bull that only after 2 years has come up as "not calved by its dam".  So it is possible that what appears to be, really isn't  and by no one fault.

With no traces of Outcast, yet he carries the mutation one has to wonder if it is a fluke of nature, or if somewhere in the pedigree (way back maybe) that something isn't quite right.

I am glad they retested with the finding of a TH calf. To me that shows that they are doing the right thing. Tip my hat to them.

 

[DL]

Since this series of posts is a little confusing let me try to clarify

Cody's bull Jazzman has been confirmed as a TH carrier - he carries the Outcast mutation

This came to light when he sired a TH calf

The calf was a compound heterozygote - meaning he has the Improver mutation (presumably from his dam) and the Outcast mutation (from the bull)

A calf can be born with typical TH is they have two Improver mutations (one from each parent) or one Improver and one Outcast or (theoretically) two Outcast mutations

Compared to the Improver mutation the Outcast mutation is very rare - it is also a huge deletion so it is not likely a calf homozygous for Outcast would survive long in utero

FWIW - If you bred a THC cow to this bull and she is short bred you might consider aborting her as the risk of a TH calf is 25%

If you bred the bull to an untested potential carrier - might be worthwhile to have her tested

Where Outcast mutation came from in the bull is unknown and the investigation at all levels  is ongoing

 

[BAILEYFARMS]

Here's the story.
    Jazzman was tested by agrigenomics in Jan. 2008; Test results came back th and pha free. We bought Jazzman. We bred Jazzman to many cows. TH calf was born out of first calf hfr.We immediatly sent in sample from calf and semen from Jazzman. While at Tulsa stae fair Dr. Beever called me and told me Jazzman is a carrier of the outcast mutation I asked him why they didn't catch it the first time and he told  me they didn't start testing for it until  that spring of '08. So I decided to post the info on here so that you guys would know. Please don't let this scare you off using him. Jazzman is a great bull that will help the breed as far as muscle, bone, belly and look. If you follow the steer shows you will see some with purple banners.We will be having a fall born sale the last weekend in Jan. there will be 10-15 there come see for yourself.

 

[DL]

Thanks for the info - I am sure that was a disappointment to you - any idea where he got the Outcast mutation - his pedigree doesn't suggest he would have it. Has he been parentally verified? Is it possible he isn't a JPJ but was bull bred? Strange unfortunate turn of events

 

[BAILEYFARMS]

Thanks for the info - I am sure that was a disappointment to you - any idea where he got the Outcast mutation - his pedigree doesn't suggest he would have it. Has he been parentally verified? Is it possible he isn't a JPJ but was bull bred? Strange unfortunate turn of events

Yes he was. ASA  makes u to sell semen. Dr B wants his reg number to figure that out. Ill keep you posted.