65% of the Shorthorn breeds current design is based on show heifers.

[JTM]

JTM is right though. How many guys out there are buying only F1 replacement heifers? It's not happening on a large scale. The only thing I will say is that as sexed semen gets better on conception I could see more of this being done. The funny thing is when that happens terminal cattle will become a lot more valuable. One thing to remember is large scale commercial producers don't care about all the little details of breeding systems. They just want simple. That's why composites are so popular.

I understand that some don't agree or like the breeding style or system. Maybe they disdain it and think it's ridiculous and that those that participate are "drinking the kool aid". The reality in the commercial cattle market is that what Mill Iron said here is true, "large scale commercial producers don't care about all the little details of breeding systems. They just want simple." You can have exceptional animals with consistency along with simple and efficient management. That is what the best and most successful seedstock suppliers are giving them. It's a breeding system that works or they wouldn't keep coming back. On the Beef Magazine Seedstock 100 list Leachman is number 5 (1550 bulls per year), Pharo is 11(900), and Nichols is 31(500) in the country as far as bull sales.

 

[JTM]

I din't think Pharo was raising composites.

I don't follow the Pharo program. I checked them out a number of years ago and didn't really buy into the whole deal about frame score. I liked Leachman's approach of mature cow weight better. I do know that on Pharo's website he talks about the benefits of composite breeding and the simplicity of it. Not sure if he is selling them or not.

 

[knabe]

His black angus are hard to look at.

 

[librarian]

To me, composites don't belong in the ASA herdbook. That is what riles me, not any lack of virtue in the concept or the cattle. Composites are great.
http://compositebeef.com/why-composites.html
A Composite Beef Cattle Registry exists and supporting the expansion of that effort seems more straightforward than taking advantage of the promiscuous nature of the ASA.

 

[cb4]

Mark Tenenbaum- I really like the look of that deception bull. To me he looks like a darker powered up version of a red angus!

I hate to say it but I think one of the hardest shorthorn traits for commercial breeders to get over is the coat colour patterns. I feel if our bulls looked a lot more like this guy it would be more appealing to buyers jmo.

 

[shortyjock89]

Mark Tenenbaum- I really like the look of that deception bull. To me he looks like a darker powered up version of a red angus!

I hate to say it but I think one of the hardest shorthorn traits for commercial breeders to get over is the coat colour patterns. I feel if our bulls looked a lot more like this guy it would be more appealing to buyers jmo.

Seriously one of the best Shorthorn bulls we've ever used. I can't wait to start showing the calves we have out of him this summer.

 

[aj]

"promiscuous nature of the ASA" have you published any poem books........you truly are literary genus as you wax elliquently.

 

[librarian]

Hardly, but thanks.

 

[knabe]

"promiscuous nature of the ASA" have you published any poem books........you truly are literary genus as you wax elliquently.

Promiscuous is indiscriminate. It's clear its discriminate. I think the word you are both looking for may be nepotism. Waxing eloquently means making a convincing argument. Perhaps in this case, a convincing argument was made even with perhaps the incorrect word use and spelling in the follow up comment, similar to the use of the word gismo. If the association was promiscuous, perhaps there would be more of a commercial focus.

 

[JTM]

To me, composites don't belong in the ASA herdbook. That is what riles me, not any lack of virtue in the concept or the cattle. Composites are great.
http://compositebeef.com/why-composites.html
A Composite Beef Cattle Registry exists and supporting the expansion of that effort seems more straightforward than taking advantage of the promiscuous nature of the ASA.

Here is what I think about this situation. The Shorthorn breed needs a chance to be proven to the commercial industry. We need to be able to track performance and with this new digital beef system we can now more easily track performance. Also, we now are combining efforts with other breeds and will soon be adding genomic enhanced epd's into the system. I understand that things get hairy when we talk about comparing epds of crossbred animals and purebred animals, but lets put that aside. No need to go down that path again. Let's just look at it from the benefit of tracking the Shorthorn influence and the performance of the Shorthorn influence cattle. Let's not even think about the show animals, just from the commercial perspective because that is how I use the system. I will be paying around $1500 or more to track my Shorthorns and Shorthorn influenced cattle's performance through the Shorthorn Association. I think they could not only use those funds but use that performance data to promote the benefits of the breed. When we start tracking udder quality in the system, cow size, and docility. All these things can be eventually tracked and the Shorthorn influence can be proven through technology.
With that said I would support closing the herd book at a time when the breed had regained national commercial acceptance and dominance. Shorthorn Impact 2015 Conference was a kickoff that could lead us to a point where this could be feasible but we need to get everyone on a closer path and the breed as a whole with more commercial acceptance.

 

[RyanChandler]

You can't establish breed identity with an open herd book.  The primary reason shorthorns breed so erratically is because the open herd book policy has allowed generation after generation of foreign- non shorthorn blood to be infused into the gene pool.  There is no stabilized shorthorn genotype in numbers.  Continuing to flood the herd book with mongrels does nothing but move the breed farther and farther away from the stabilized uniform product we should be trying to create. 

 

[oakview]

Who's to say what the stabilized, uniform product we should be trying to produce is?  If we all produced the same animals, where would the next Leader 21st, Dividend, Columbus, Trump, 034, or whatever come from?  Who would be the Bert Hansons, Bob Gordons, or Thiemans we might need to save the day when we all breed for the stabilized, uniform product somebody tells us we need?  (such as the Scotch type Angus, Herefords, and Shorthorns the "experts" told us we had to have in the 50's and 60's)  There will always be the need for somebody to breed outside the box.  Thank goodness. 

 

[beebe]

I agree with this statement.  I am glad that I can find shorthorn genetics that work for grass fed beef.  In 1969 Sutherland Prospector was the International Grand Champion.  By 1975 things had changed a lot.  That was caused by change in judges opinions.  If you base your breeding decisions on economics of beef production, the swings will be reduced.  However grass fed beef genetics and commodity beef genetics will differ.

 

[trevorgreycattleco]

Nobody is to say what you should be breeding. What we are saying is stabilize the pre potency of the cattle you're breeding. Different strains that do different things within the breed. Larry Leonhardt had several stabilized types in his own herd that were bred to excel at different things. Everybody chasing the same few bloodlines for the purple banners are ok but the more people that do that, the less diversity we are producing.

 

[aj]

I kind of agree with x-bar. However most breeds have a appendix type program. But not all breeds glorify the deal like the Shorthorn Plus deal and have shows and sell x-bred shorthorn plus heifers for 100,000 dollars. However, not all cattle that come into the herd book are mongrels. Bringing in say time tested Red Angus genetics that are probably better cattle may not be acceptable to alot of people but they are not mongrel cattle. If you get serious in this breed and close the herd book it almost forces you to limit genetic defects in order to stay with that line of direction. good discussion.

 

[oakview]

I saw Sutherland Prospector at Studer's way back when.  He was kind of heavy fronted, so they always kept his brisket shaved.  Mike can tell you a great story about the Shorthorn sale held at the hotel in Chicago.  They sold a son of Prospector, Prospector Traveler, I believe.  I was told they took the cattle up the service elevator to the sale site several floor high.  There's a good story in Shorthorn World about it, too.  I was a fan of Sutherland Citation, too, at that time. 

Perhaps you can enlighten me on the genetics you're using for grass fed Shorthorns.  I visited with a gentleman at the Iowa State Fair that was looking for the right breeding to use.  I know there are some out there, I just didn't know exactly where to point him.

 

[trevorgreycattleco]

I think grass fed genetics don't really exist yet. Or haven't been identified enough. I think you'll have to breed for it before you can say for sure. I think you have to take genetics from the lower input operations and combine them. There is no 100% grass based shorthorn ranch that I know of that produces anything in volume.

 

[beebe]

I saw Sutherland Prospector at Studer's way back when.  He was kind of heavy fronted, so they always kept his brisket shaved.  Mike can tell you a great story about the Shorthorn sale held at the hotel in Chicago.  They sold a son of Prospector, Prospector Traveler, I believe.  I was told they took the cattle up the service elevator to the sale site several floor high.  There's a good story in Shorthorn World about it, too.  I was a fan of Sutherland Citation, too, at that time. 

Perhaps you can enlighten me on the genetics you're using for grass fed Shorthorns.  I visited with a gentleman at the Iowa State Fair that was looking for the right breeding to use.  I know there are some out there, I just didn't know exactly where to point him.
[/quote
I never saw Prospector in person but a little front heavy is not a bad thing in grass fed.  Albaugh Ranch has sold grass fed meat into the California hotel restaurant trade.  The steer in my freezer is an Albaugh steer, and he is very good.  I have a bull DMH Minn Max Leader, that is the right frame score with a lot of other good qualities.  I will put one of his first sons in my freezer this fall. We will see.  Tenderness as well as marbling, in that order is what I am looking for.  Nobody ever had a tough steak and thought they had a good eating experience.

 

[beebe]

I think grass fed genetics don't really exist yet. Or haven't been identified enough. I think you'll have to breed for it before you can say for sure. I think you have to take genetics from the lower input operations and combine them. There is no 100% grass based shorthorn ranch that I know of that produces anything in volume.

Grass fed genetics exist in the Shorthorn breed, but you are right about the low input cattle.  I would suspect you might be able to find some useful grass fed genetics at Dover Sindelars operation.  Again Albaugh Ranch has very good grass fed genetics.

 

[knabe]

Albaugh Ranch has sold grass fed meat into the California hotel restaurant trade.

many have. the repeat rate diminishes rapidly.  there is no independent measurements of what it means to be grassfed and acceptable in the restaurant trade other than saying it is, making people feel like they are cheating the grain fed path.  it's really a joke.  with tastes so subjective and subject to emotion of saving the earth, there is really very few people who know and or have what is excellent with grass fed production.  one needs genes, validation, causal snps etc. the whole emotional thing just won't stand scrutiny.