I agree with aj on the WPDA factor in the show ring. I, for one pay no attention to it. I think it was instituted as a tool to show which cattle had the ability to gain, but what it has done is see who has the best feed bucket.( it was probably the idea of some college guy who has lost any concept of real world of cattle production). I agree that WPDA should be scrapped, and if it isn't scrapped, it is a useless term in older bulls especially. On a positive note, I see some shows are not weighing heifers now, which to me is a good thing. I was the Beef Chairman at Canadian Western Agribition for three years, and our beef committee passed a motion not to weigh the heifers at the show. It was interesting that this motion was passed unanimously by every breed rep on the committee ( all breeds are represented) and I thought we were on to something very good as we might eventually see heifer shown with less grease on them ( I know, It was a foolish thought!). Well, when word got out that this motion had been passed, all Hell Broke Loose! We received angry letters from many breed associations, saying that this decision would be fought vigorously by their breed. Some associations threatened to move their National shows from Agribition. Interestingly, it was the Angus, Simmental and Hereford breeds that screamed the loudest, with the Angus breed being the most vocal. I was also on the Agribition board of directors and our decision saw lengthy discussion at the board table. Because the beef committee had voted unanimously for not weighing females at the show, it was decided that breeds who wanted to weigh females could do so voluntarily, but they would have to use their own staff and do it after any Agribition entry processing was done. This sounded like a decent compromise. Interestingly, every breed decided to weigh the females shown, so this decision was reversed the following year.
I think this discussion on cow size is one where there can be no winners. We all try to raise cattle that work for us and work for the markets we are trying to produce for. As I said earlier, the majority of my cow herd, would be similar in size to most of everyone else's who has voiced an opinion here. I expect my average cow size would be smaller than some others. I do have a few bigger framed cows, but I do not keep them just because they are big framed. They are also easy fleshing and very maternal. I have them because they allow me to access some overseas markets such as Britain where they still demand much bigger framed cattle than most on the North American continent . These cows were selected with these markets in mind, but I have been very surprised how they have been accepted here in Canada and the US. I find it interesting that some of the same people who talk about moderating frame, are some of the same people who have purchased breedings stock and embryos from these bigger cows. Like I said earlier, I don't try to just produce cattle and embryos for one sole marketplace, but at the same time, I do not regulate who can buy them either. I would agree that these bigger framed cows will not work for everyone. My point is that if these cows are making me money and producing offspring that are making other people money, I find it hard to say that these cows are no good. Some of the comments I have responded to, have been the ones that state that there is no such thing as a good bigger framed cow. Maybe that is true in some people's operations, but I don't think that is true in every operation. We all try to blend genetics to design a better beast. The definition of a better beast, can vary between producers and between countries.
I would be the very first to say that you have to raise the type of cattle that works in your environment and fit the amount of management you wish to provide. Two cattlemen living side by side, may need different types of cattle, dependent on the management provided. The area I live in can be pretty harsh, much like where aj lives I expect, but we may be able to work with a different type of cow than he does . Our average annual rainfall ( snow and rain) is 12 inches, and many years we are much below this amount, and some years we get more. I am sure the majority of my cows are a different frame than many in the Midwest US or eastern Canada. That is only common sense. That said, what may be a perfect sized cow in your operation may not be a perfect cow in someone else's.
The comments about the discounts on roan cattle in parts of the US is disturbing to me. For several years after I started breeding cattle, there was some discounts on roans but it was never more than 5-6 cents a pound. When we started raising Charolais, my Charolais calves outsold me Shorthorn calves. Within 5 years, my Shorthorn calves were demanding as much at the market as the Charolais calves, and within a few more years, my white Charolais calves were being bringing less than my Shorthorn calves. I would say right now, that here in Canada, the calves that are most in demand are the ones that should British influence along with some Continental influence. The solid reds and blacks are not receiving the premiums they once did. A good set of black calves will demand a strong dollar,as will a good set of smoky or tans, but so will a good set of roan calves.
When we were feeding cattle, we put our pot loads of fats up for bid every Monday morning. We listed the average weights, and breed if possible. If it was a load of mixed breeds we would put " British crossbred" or Continental crossbreds, and the plants would bid accordingly. The bids were faxed to us, by noon that day and we had to decide what bid we were going to accept by 4 pm the same day. We never knew where we would be getting bids from, as they could come from Alberta, Saskatchewan, Ontario, Nebraska, Minnesota or Iowa. Sometimes we would be totally surprised by getting bids from plants in Washington or Oregon. If we did not like any of the bids, we had the option of accepting none of the bids, and we would put them up for bid the following week again. We shipped loads of fat cattle to most of the packers in Canada as well as most of the Western US ( other than the southern US). I do not ever remember having any packer discount us for roan or Shorthorn cross fats, in fact, many would ask if we had more cattle like the ones we had sent.
I will also say that when we were operating our feedlot, we offered a 3 cent premium over the average market price that week, for calves from producers who purchased their bulls from us. In order to help pay for this, I increased the base price of our bulls by $200 each. It was mostly optics, but many producers thought it was a great deal. It was also good for us, as we got a percentage of our calves delivered direct from the farm without going through the auction marts , and arriving sick at the feedlot. With this policy in place, we got cattle of all colors in the feedlot. At the packer level, we did not get anyone complaining about the roans in any load.
After reading the comments in this thread about some of the huge discounts for roan cattle, I called a fellow who manages a 10,000 head lot near here ( they are moving to 20,000 head) . This fellow also runs a cow herd with his brother, and between their cows and their father, run about 1300 cows or more. They have been buying some Shorthorn bulls from us for a few years now. Seeing that we quit feeding cattle a few years ago, I wanted his opinion as to whether they are discounted for their fed cattle that show Shorthorn influence. They also ship fat cattle to many packers in Canada and the midwest US. He said that he gets no discounts for the Shorthorn influence cattle, other than the fact that some of them do not qualify for the CAB program. He also said that many Shorthorn sired black calves do qualify though. He also said that these cattle are some of the most efficient in the feedlot. When I mentioned that roan calves are discounted $.15-$.45 in many auction marts in the Midwest US, he said, that somebody is making a pile of money at the expense of the producer. I would have to agree with him, and I think this is nothing short of highway robbery.
Change never comes easy in this business, so trying to change this absurdity may be very difficult to do. I would suggest that retained ownership would be a good way to avoid this, but this is also difficult if you only have a few roans to sell. I think if I was losing $.45/ lb on some roans, I would be trying to work with some others and grouping some roans into a feedlot. Many feedlots have programs available now, where they will pay all the feed costs and deduct the feed bill at the time of sale, and share in any profits. I think this would be a great way to convince a feedlot to consider feeding some again. If these guys show a profit, they won't be afraid to do it again.
