Doc
Well-known member
aj said:
I think that he is listening. If he was telling them , then I think he would have a lot of no sales at his bull sale. As it was , it looks like he had a pretty good sale.
A bull that can cross the boundaries between clubbie and cowboy cattle
- Thread starter justintime
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I think that he is listening. If he was telling them , then I think he would have a lot of no sales at his bull sale. As it was , it looks like he had a pretty good sale.
trevorgreycattleco
Well-known member
25 bulls out of what, 55? How many no sales? Not a good sale in my mind. Sorry. I think A.J. has alot of good points. I have studied and bred shorthorns for 11 years, and IMO most shorthorn people breed for the purple. The majority do. I have no problem with this, I think they are tough to beat in the ring and I admire them when I go. With that said, the majority of these cattle don't add up to what commercial guys want. I will say this, there are lines out there that do hold up or even thrive. I am sending steers to the butcher in 5 days. Shorthorn / red angus cross. They are flat out gettin it done on nothing but grass. There mamas weigh around 1,300 - 1,400 hundred tops.They got more performance then most ton cows I will promise you. They proved it! As of right now I have 0 donor cows. Why? Not one has earned it yet. Too many people have "donors" that I wonder what they are thinkin. Flushin cows is not suppose to be about being a slick marketer and puttin embryos in 57 countries. It is about those FEW cows that are a difference maker. Quit lookin at pedigrees to see if she will be a donor or not. Make her earn it. Shorthorns are on the doorstep of something big IMO. I am not tryin to step on any toes, JMO. I think shorthorns hold a key into producing a BETTER carcass than what exsists today. I am focusing on fertility, longevity, and carcass quality personally. Reading AJ put a big ol smile on my face. I just kept nodding yes while I was reading. AJ, I will be one of those breeders your talkin about. (Good Lord willing and the creek don't rise)
justintime
Well-known member
aj... here are the facts ... at least around my place. I make over 90 % of my total income from my cows. Therefore I have to produce a product that I can sell. Maybe it is different where you live, but I happen to live in an area where there are probably 500 Angus bulls, 500 Red Angus bulls, 250 Simmental bulls, and 250 Charolais bulls and probably another few hundred of Polled Hereford, Gelbvieh, Maine etc. These bulls all sell within a 70 mile radius of where I live. There are lots of options for the commercial man's dollars, and some of these bulls are produced by some of leading breeders in their breeds. There were some bulls sales with averages around $5000 or more and there were at least 10 bulls in the $20,000 or more category in these sales this spring. I keep hearing that commercial producers won't pay for good bulls, but I would say that most commercial producers are willing to pay more than most purebred breeders. I have seen many commercial producers paying over $5000 for bulls this spring. A neighbor sold 70 Charolais bulls for an average of $4900. Lots of guys I know that live close to here, paid $5000-$7500 for bulls for their commercial cows. As one guy said," when it will cost me over $1 Million for crop inputs to plant my crop this year, a few thousand for a good bull doesn't look too bad".
I have several bull buyers who have purchased over 10 bulls from me in the past 5 years. Two commercial men each purchased their 14th bull in the last decade at this years sale. Most of these producers know there stuff and this is not a hobby to them. So, for me to survive, I have to be constantly looking into the future and trying to see what type of bulls these guys will be looking for in 3 years time. I just don't chase these cows around for something to do. I do it because it is the only thing I have ever wanted to do, and I feel very fortunate to be able to say that I have kept cows, but my cows have also kept me. I have lots of discussions with commercial producers about this business, but I like to listen as well. I don't hesitate to give my views but I certainly don't dictate to them what they should do. They are smart people, they know their business, and they are quite capable in making their own breeding choices. I also try to do as much or more advertising as my competition, as I believe visibility is a key component to making sales. Here in Canada, I am greatful that our Shorthorn Association has spent over $100,000 in the last 10 years running great promotional ads in our National beef magazines. I think it is paying dividends.
When I say we should be careful to not lose performance when we downsize our frame, that is exactly what I mean. Where I live, smaller framed cattle have started to be discounted and the discounts are getting larger every year. The commercial producer wants pounds to sell in the fall when the calves go to town. The feedlots want cattle that gain well and are efficient at doing it. We sell quite a few bulls to commercial producers who have decided they want to have some Shorthorn in their replacement females. Most of them come back a year later and tell us that they were also really pleased with their steer calves and how they were accepted at the market.
So basically, what I am saying is I have to compete with some pretty big players to make a living. How many bulls do you think I would sell as breeding bulls, if they weighed 450 at 205 days and 900 at 365 days? The answer is a few... providing they had low birth weights and could be used on heifers. These guys could give a rat's ass as to how many pounds of beef they produced over a 15 year period, if their calves are discounted each year for being smaller framed.When I get a phone call from a new potential buyer, what I usually hear goes like this.... " I have been thinking of using a Shorthorn bull but I can't justify it if I lose weaning weight from what my Angus bulls are giving me. What kind of weaning weights can I expect if I purchase a Shorthorn bull from you?" I have never had anyone ask me how many pounds of beef can I expect over the next 15 years off my pastures? I agree that feed efficiency is extremely important and any cattle feeder worth his salt, knows exactly how many pounds of feed went into a pen and how many pounds of beef came out. That is another reason some feedlots are liking these Shorthorn and Shorthorn cross cattle. They are proving to reach higher grades and produce more pounds of beef from less pounds of feed.
I am not saying we want huge framed cattle either. They are discounted as well, but occasionally sell well if they have thickness and volume. I keep hearing from some on SP that the consumer is wanting smaller carcass size. I see no evidence here of that, and it is almost the reverse. The top end for carcass size, before there are discounts, has been steadily increasing. I spoke to a large cattle buyer who lives near me yesterday and he said he sees more 1500-1600 fats than ever before. I don't expect many of these cattle were frame 3.5 - 4.
The 29th bull just left my yard this morning that was sold for breeding.The last two years we had lopsided calf crops with over 75% heifers. I have a few left, but June is usually a pretty good month for selling some bulls as there are injuries and there are getting to be more and more who do not turn a bull out until mid July. I am pleased with sales this spring, considering that we are down over 500,000 cows in Western Canada alone. I take it from what you are telling me aj, that I am doing something wrong. Maybe enlighten me with your figures and tell me how your bull sales have been. In our 2008 calf crop, only two bulls were not sold as breeding bulls, and these bulls averaged $2898. We have averaged $2911 on 29 bulls so far this year. In the past 3 years we have sold 112 females off the farm by private treaty. I have sold embryos to 6 countries in the past three years and have sold over 200 to Britain alone.And I do this without chasing purple banners.... imagine that! I obviously must be doing something wrong, Please enlighten me!!
I have several bull buyers who have purchased over 10 bulls from me in the past 5 years. Two commercial men each purchased their 14th bull in the last decade at this years sale. Most of these producers know there stuff and this is not a hobby to them. So, for me to survive, I have to be constantly looking into the future and trying to see what type of bulls these guys will be looking for in 3 years time. I just don't chase these cows around for something to do. I do it because it is the only thing I have ever wanted to do, and I feel very fortunate to be able to say that I have kept cows, but my cows have also kept me. I have lots of discussions with commercial producers about this business, but I like to listen as well. I don't hesitate to give my views but I certainly don't dictate to them what they should do. They are smart people, they know their business, and they are quite capable in making their own breeding choices. I also try to do as much or more advertising as my competition, as I believe visibility is a key component to making sales. Here in Canada, I am greatful that our Shorthorn Association has spent over $100,000 in the last 10 years running great promotional ads in our National beef magazines. I think it is paying dividends.
When I say we should be careful to not lose performance when we downsize our frame, that is exactly what I mean. Where I live, smaller framed cattle have started to be discounted and the discounts are getting larger every year. The commercial producer wants pounds to sell in the fall when the calves go to town. The feedlots want cattle that gain well and are efficient at doing it. We sell quite a few bulls to commercial producers who have decided they want to have some Shorthorn in their replacement females. Most of them come back a year later and tell us that they were also really pleased with their steer calves and how they were accepted at the market.
So basically, what I am saying is I have to compete with some pretty big players to make a living. How many bulls do you think I would sell as breeding bulls, if they weighed 450 at 205 days and 900 at 365 days? The answer is a few... providing they had low birth weights and could be used on heifers. These guys could give a rat's ass as to how many pounds of beef they produced over a 15 year period, if their calves are discounted each year for being smaller framed.When I get a phone call from a new potential buyer, what I usually hear goes like this.... " I have been thinking of using a Shorthorn bull but I can't justify it if I lose weaning weight from what my Angus bulls are giving me. What kind of weaning weights can I expect if I purchase a Shorthorn bull from you?" I have never had anyone ask me how many pounds of beef can I expect over the next 15 years off my pastures? I agree that feed efficiency is extremely important and any cattle feeder worth his salt, knows exactly how many pounds of feed went into a pen and how many pounds of beef came out. That is another reason some feedlots are liking these Shorthorn and Shorthorn cross cattle. They are proving to reach higher grades and produce more pounds of beef from less pounds of feed.
I am not saying we want huge framed cattle either. They are discounted as well, but occasionally sell well if they have thickness and volume. I keep hearing from some on SP that the consumer is wanting smaller carcass size. I see no evidence here of that, and it is almost the reverse. The top end for carcass size, before there are discounts, has been steadily increasing. I spoke to a large cattle buyer who lives near me yesterday and he said he sees more 1500-1600 fats than ever before. I don't expect many of these cattle were frame 3.5 - 4.
The 29th bull just left my yard this morning that was sold for breeding.The last two years we had lopsided calf crops with over 75% heifers. I have a few left, but June is usually a pretty good month for selling some bulls as there are injuries and there are getting to be more and more who do not turn a bull out until mid July. I am pleased with sales this spring, considering that we are down over 500,000 cows in Western Canada alone. I take it from what you are telling me aj, that I am doing something wrong. Maybe enlighten me with your figures and tell me how your bull sales have been. In our 2008 calf crop, only two bulls were not sold as breeding bulls, and these bulls averaged $2898. We have averaged $2911 on 29 bulls so far this year. In the past 3 years we have sold 112 females off the farm by private treaty. I have sold embryos to 6 countries in the past three years and have sold over 200 to Britain alone.And I do this without chasing purple banners.... imagine that! I obviously must be doing something wrong, Please enlighten me!!
Hilltop
Well-known member
Just curious what most of your juniors steers would weigh when they go to get their heads cut off?trevorgreycattleco said:
I remember when I was in 4-H (just a few years ago) LOL that if a steer was over 1250lbs you got laughed out of the barn. Now unless you are 1325+ you probably don't have a chance.
Does this not show what the industry is looking for? If we all were still finishing a 600lb carcass then that is what we would see in the "HOME GROWN" classes but we are not.
These steers are not coming out of 1000lb cows. How old are your steers that are going to slaughter?What would they weigh now?
To me the ideal cow size is whatever works for a particular operation. Shortys are far from the biggest breed here.
trevorgreycattleco
Well-known member
Personally my steers need to weigh around 12 to 13 for me to send them. These calves were born last March and early April. I agree with the right size is what is right for you. I like smaller cows that eat less, that way I can stock more cattle. JMO. I cull all cows that are over a 6 frame. The steers will be weighed next week but i am guessing them at right about 1,200 lbs or more. The last two years I have averaged 58% dress. My butcher says he would like to see a bit more marbling but they are very tender and very good. They have not seen grain since the end of Feb. They got about 4 lbs per day duting the winter with good hay. They were raised last year with no creep( like I always do). I will post the data when I get it from the butcher. I sell alot of freezer beef and my customers love it. Sold out this year and already sold out for next year so I must be on the right track. I got lots of room for improvment mind you. I don't show steers but my red angus have done well for others. Folks if you have not tried the angus shorthorn cross, you are really missing out. They are flat out tough to beat. I honestly don't care what some judge thinks about steers or heifers when he picks them. I want profitable cattle that work for me. Bigger cows for me have proven to be not as profitable. Just my thoughts.
Davis Shorthorns
Well-known member
trevorgreycattleco said:
I agree that cross is one heck of a cross. In my personaly openion the best cross since the Baldie and if you are in a place that you have enough grass to support the milk production and a calf that can put some IMF into a carcass then I say go with the Shorthorn/ Angus.
And as far as I am concerned it is a better cross than the Sim Angus cross was a few years back and if the ASA and its members can get the numbers fixed we as a breed would be one BIG step closer to being a commercially acceptiable breed. Add that to the trent towards retaining ownership through the feeding process and if you use a black angus bull on your shorthorn cows you still quallify for CAB and get the extra money for that.
One thing to really watch as far a carcass quality the Meat Animal Research Center in Neb. Shorthorn is the no 3 breed as far as they have found, very close behind the red and black angus and a good way ahead of simmi. Now remember that is with the VAST majority of breeders not selecting for carcass quality for over 30 years.
trevorgreycattleco
Well-known member
Just think when we start to identify bulls that are carcass improvers! Lets hope we don't go chasing that rainbow over the hill to far tho. Some shorthorns i know of have really lit up the ultrasound machine. Sue's Clementine heifer to Uluru comes to mind with her high IMF. My Durham Red bull from Leveldale with a 17 inch ribeye on a 5 frame. Shorthorns could be the missing link the commercial sector has been looking for to decrease those low yeilding carcasses. I know my customers love the shorthorn angus deal. My one buddy likes it so well he wants to invest in a meat shop that sells my beef. I need alot more cows first lol.
CAB
Well-known member
When it's all said and done, the packing plants dictate the "perfect" sized carcass. They will scrutinize as many areas as they can to take as many docs as they can get by with including the color of the hide, but it still boils down to the fact they, the factory, is way more efficient killing larger carcasses than smaller ones. It takes the same amount of time to run both size carcasses through the line and @ the end of the day you'll have more product in the boxes killing the larger carcass cattle making the plant more money @ the end of the day and the meat seller's will spin the story to fit their most profitable scenario.
Show Heifer
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- Joined
- Jan 28, 2007
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- 2,221
I called 8 local sale barns to find out the discount or premium on roan calves. The range was from a 15-45 cent discount. Even if the quality was similiar to that of a black calf.
I called 3 feed lots. None preferred roan cattle. One flat refused them, one said the daily rate would be more due to "feeding issues".
I also called 2 shortie breeders, and both said their market was to other shortie breeders or to juniors. A few sold solid red bulls to commercial cattleman, but one commented that he had sold a red bull last year that threw some roans the the buyer was not happy at all.
CAB - While I agree with your statement on carcass size, I also can relate to the family trying to buy beef for supper. If you have a 15 square inch ribeye, that is thick cut (1 1/4 inches), and ribeye is $.8.50 a pound, you are going to spend roughly $18-20 PER STEAK. Yes, you can cut the steak into pieces, but lets face it, when someone wants a steak, they want their own steak. At the same time, a 8 square inch ribeye cut the same thickness will only be $8 per steak. So while it is fun to brag about having a steer cut a 15-20 inch ribeye, it doesn't neccessarily translate into a good thing at the super market.
JIT - While I like the looks of your bull, he would never be used in the commercial cattle herds around here simply due to his color. That is just the facts. He may offer the world to the industry, but unless he throws solid colored calves, he is worthless to the commecial cattleman around her. I hope he works out for you in Canada.
I called 3 feed lots. None preferred roan cattle. One flat refused them, one said the daily rate would be more due to "feeding issues".
I also called 2 shortie breeders, and both said their market was to other shortie breeders or to juniors. A few sold solid red bulls to commercial cattleman, but one commented that he had sold a red bull last year that threw some roans the the buyer was not happy at all.
CAB - While I agree with your statement on carcass size, I also can relate to the family trying to buy beef for supper. If you have a 15 square inch ribeye, that is thick cut (1 1/4 inches), and ribeye is $.8.50 a pound, you are going to spend roughly $18-20 PER STEAK. Yes, you can cut the steak into pieces, but lets face it, when someone wants a steak, they want their own steak. At the same time, a 8 square inch ribeye cut the same thickness will only be $8 per steak. So while it is fun to brag about having a steer cut a 15-20 inch ribeye, it doesn't neccessarily translate into a good thing at the super market.
JIT - While I like the looks of your bull, he would never be used in the commercial cattle herds around here simply due to his color. That is just the facts. He may offer the world to the industry, but unless he throws solid colored calves, he is worthless to the commecial cattleman around her. I hope he works out for you in Canada.
ELBEE
Well-known member
Show Heifer said:
And that friends, is the world I live in, real or make-believe!
Shorthorns, the hobby breed!
CAB
Well-known member
SH, I understand your thoughts also, But like I said B4 the packing industry will do what is best for them. I did say that they would doc for as much as they can get by with including too large of carcasses. I didn't say anything about 15-20 s.in rib eyes. Personally I like cattle that ave 13/14 sq.inch eyes. When we put the meat truck up on the street each Saturday. We had the locker cut Rib eye steaks 1 1/2 inches thick then cut them in half. We packaged those steaks one per package,( the half steak per package). Those half steak packages were always gone quickly and @ over $12.00per lb were less than $8.00 per serving. Women loved them. We also cut boneless sirloin @ 1 1/2 inches thick, the whole sirloin across. They usually were in the $30.00 to $35.00 range per package & could feed 4 to 6 PPL. PPL grilled those whole and cut up servings accordingly. Try to have one cut like that sometime, you'll love the flavor and moisture left in that steak. One of my favorites.
JIT, you make that bull available next year and I'll find a way to use him. I flat out like the type of SH cattle that you are putting together. I will be stopping in close to Jacksonville Iowa to look @ the lot #15 bull as soon as I can get a chance to.
JIT, you make that bull available next year and I'll find a way to use him. I flat out like the type of SH cattle that you are putting together. I will be stopping in close to Jacksonville Iowa to look @ the lot #15 bull as soon as I can get a chance to.
I think different folks are arguing apples and oranges. I thin JIT was arguing about size/weight of cattle. SH - I think you are talking color. You're both right based on our experience.
We sell our cattle straight to feedlots - nothing through a sale barn except for our scrubs. We have never ever had a buyer tell us an animal was too tall or too "big" in general.
We've never had roan colored cattle, but our buyers don't want anything but blacks or black baldies. They don't argue with us on the handfull of solid red calves we'll wind up with. They do sometimes try to kick back our few silver or yellow Charolais-X calves. When I'll explain to them the bloodlines they are coming from (HooDoos or some of the other stuff we use, they'll reluctantly accept them with the rest of our truckloads.
Our buyers also know full well that a lot of our cattle have Maine blood in them or come from "clubby" sires. They don't mind that one bit as, as I've posted the data on here before, those calves perform just fine in the feedlot.
I can see where calves from club calf sires might not perform well commercially if your cowherd has been bred (really inbred) that way for a long time. But I've got plenty of data to prove to myself that club calf sires on good solid cows do just fine in the commercial world. Calves out of Heat Wave and his sons feed out just as good as commercial Angus or commercial Simi-Angus calves - as long as they are out of "normal" sized cows.
Go watch the Superior Auction on RFDTV today - you'll see what folks want. Not trying to take shots - but its not Charolais cattle and its not Shorthorns - for different reasons. I kind of scratch my head at Shorthorn breeders raising cane about the show ring. That's the only real market in the US for those cattle. As far as I know - they've never had a dominant or accepted role commercially. People have them because they like looking at them. The perception of them is most are just not tough animals that can make it in our range conditions. I know there are lots of exceptions - but that's the perception from the few commercial breeders in our region that have tried them.
I really wonder about the logic of bias against Charolais. Their problem is their calves are hard to get to grade and too many of them are still too coarse and too heavy boned. But as a crossbred their calves grow well. And if you run the numbers, NO OTHER CARCASS TRAIT TRUMPS WEIGHT - either for the cow calf producer or the feedlot seller. A 1300 pound SELECT steer is going to bring more money than a 1250 pound Choice steer.
AJ isn't wrong either about huge cows being bad. Where people get in trouble (including us), is trying to make one kind of animal do it all. You will wind up with cows that are too big using high growth bulls and keeping females out of them for multiple generations. At the same time, you can't use all small to moderate frames bulls on small to moderate framed cows without leaving money on the table with the calf crop you sell.
Personally, our herd consists primarily of relatively large to moderate framed commercial Angus (R.A. Brown Angus bloodlines and some of the Sitz bloodlines) and low percentage Maine-Angus or Simi-Angus crosses with some Chi mixed in. Right now, we AI for primarily for black show steers/heifers but we are buy maternal oriented bulls - a mix of Ohlde Angus bloodlines (Anchor), some halfblood Meyer sons, and some other halfblood Simi bulls to use back on these types of cows. We keep some of our best show steer-oriented females, but we don't keep heifer calves from those females as replacements.
We sell our cattle straight to feedlots - nothing through a sale barn except for our scrubs. We have never ever had a buyer tell us an animal was too tall or too "big" in general.
We've never had roan colored cattle, but our buyers don't want anything but blacks or black baldies. They don't argue with us on the handfull of solid red calves we'll wind up with. They do sometimes try to kick back our few silver or yellow Charolais-X calves. When I'll explain to them the bloodlines they are coming from (HooDoos or some of the other stuff we use, they'll reluctantly accept them with the rest of our truckloads.
Our buyers also know full well that a lot of our cattle have Maine blood in them or come from "clubby" sires. They don't mind that one bit as, as I've posted the data on here before, those calves perform just fine in the feedlot.
I can see where calves from club calf sires might not perform well commercially if your cowherd has been bred (really inbred) that way for a long time. But I've got plenty of data to prove to myself that club calf sires on good solid cows do just fine in the commercial world. Calves out of Heat Wave and his sons feed out just as good as commercial Angus or commercial Simi-Angus calves - as long as they are out of "normal" sized cows.
Go watch the Superior Auction on RFDTV today - you'll see what folks want. Not trying to take shots - but its not Charolais cattle and its not Shorthorns - for different reasons. I kind of scratch my head at Shorthorn breeders raising cane about the show ring. That's the only real market in the US for those cattle. As far as I know - they've never had a dominant or accepted role commercially. People have them because they like looking at them. The perception of them is most are just not tough animals that can make it in our range conditions. I know there are lots of exceptions - but that's the perception from the few commercial breeders in our region that have tried them.
I really wonder about the logic of bias against Charolais. Their problem is their calves are hard to get to grade and too many of them are still too coarse and too heavy boned. But as a crossbred their calves grow well. And if you run the numbers, NO OTHER CARCASS TRAIT TRUMPS WEIGHT - either for the cow calf producer or the feedlot seller. A 1300 pound SELECT steer is going to bring more money than a 1250 pound Choice steer.
AJ isn't wrong either about huge cows being bad. Where people get in trouble (including us), is trying to make one kind of animal do it all. You will wind up with cows that are too big using high growth bulls and keeping females out of them for multiple generations. At the same time, you can't use all small to moderate frames bulls on small to moderate framed cows without leaving money on the table with the calf crop you sell.
Personally, our herd consists primarily of relatively large to moderate framed commercial Angus (R.A. Brown Angus bloodlines and some of the Sitz bloodlines) and low percentage Maine-Angus or Simi-Angus crosses with some Chi mixed in. Right now, we AI for primarily for black show steers/heifers but we are buy maternal oriented bulls - a mix of Ohlde Angus bloodlines (Anchor), some halfblood Meyer sons, and some other halfblood Simi bulls to use back on these types of cows. We keep some of our best show steer-oriented females, but we don't keep heifer calves from those females as replacements.
ELBEE
Well-known member
One consolation on these extremely large loineyes is, that consumers buying freezer beef directly off the farm prefer a leaner and higher ratio of the more expensive cuts. ie; @ $2.40 per lb. for a whole or half why wouldn't you want 20 inch eyes?
CAB
Well-known member
ELBEE said:
Exactly Lee. If they can buy a whole or half beef, you can average the price out. The last freezer beef that I sold averaged $5.40 per take home, ground beef to fillets.
I agree with you Chambero, I am breeding similar to what you are doing with an emphasis on breeding to make better cows. The thing that I am saying about JIT's SH cattle is that I think that they are good enough to incorporate into my cowherd in a way that I can take some great things into my cows, but still remain with a predominantly black calf crop.
Freddy
Well-known member
Your articles are very interesting an educational to me ,wondering how well is the half blood Charx bull going to work in this process, in my experience about half of those calves out of black cows re going to be black an the other half smoke or cream ... An most of these cattle I have worked with will finish in that 1300 lb. weight an up ....Most of these smoke bulls are some of the show steer breeding , an perform satisfactory if you don't use the clubby cross female ..... Just wondering about your views on these .....
Freddy said:
Freddy - I'll never get to expirament with this on any more than a handful of cows due to the overall goal of our program (black cows, black calves), but the black calf out of a halfblood Charolais cow (basically a 1/4 blood calf with some other exotic in him - Simi, Maine, Chi, etc) makes one heck of a performing calf - both gain and grading - on the limited few I've got data on. Last year our highest money making commercial calf was bred like that. Beat out 70 some odd other steers in that truckload - at weaning time and in $$ paid to the feedlot owner for the end carcass. This particular momma cow is out of a Charolais bull called Troy and a black Magic grandaughter. Really she is the best cow on our place. Most of her calves aren't quite pretty enough for very top end show steers, but they are always super stout and heavy. This year she had the George daughter (a 3/4 blood calf) you might remember seeing a picture of on here last fall. I'll be keeping that calf for a replacement. I'll get a photo of her up in a week or two. She's making a real nice heifer, but not quite cool enough looking to show down here.
aj
Well-known member
From what I've heard the Canadian commercial industry isn't even faintly like the the U.S. All I am saying is to heck with weaning weights. If you start figuring pounds weaned per acre of grass or pounds weaned per cow exposed you wake up in a hurry. With this way of measurement you figure in dead 120# calves and dead defect calves, cows that don't breed back because they are to big. WDA is a joke in the showring....its all artificial. Commercial guys don't talk about weaning weights they talked about how many pounds they weaned off the north pasture. They keep records on that pasture from year. The big cows won't get it done if you are truthfull and keep records on it.
aj said:
AJ - I don't disagree with you in principal about probably making more money off moderate framed cows vs. big ones, but the only variable every commercial ranch I know of cares about IS weaning weights. If you are talking commercial shorthorn breeders that is hardly a representative sample of the commercial world. Large commercial operations in our world could care less about birthweights - just as long as the cow can have a calf unassisted out in the pasture. Which is rarely a problem anymore.
In theory you can run more moderate framed cattle per acre than large framed cows, but nobody (in a significant sense) really determines their stocking rates that way. Most operations that really make a living from cattle allow a pretty comfortable margin for grazing capacity based on weather - which is much more significant than the differences between what one cow eats vs. another. Having smaller cows doesn't really allow you to run more cows in a pasture, at least not in our part of the world.
By the way, I've never seen a pasture full of 2,000 lb cows from any breed. The real question is what is the extra cost associated with a 1500 lb cow vs a 1200 lb cow? I think most people would agree a 1,000 lb mature cow is too small and a 1500 lb cow is on the upper end of what anyone really needs.
r.n.reed
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- Joined
- Apr 29, 2008
- Messages
- 611
So if weaning weight is the main criteria for acceptance in the commercial market,seedstock providers should have big heavy milking cows and a creep feeder every 50 yards so they can advertise their exceptional weaning weights.
aj
Well-known member
Chambero......points taken. One factor of the "large cow syndrome" is the shape of the growth curve. I think cattle like the Red Angus....grow like crazy then stop growing. I think some say shorties charolais and etc grow like crazy.....have their first calf......grow some more up to 3 or 4 years of age. Thats why I don't think you can nessecarrily bash moderate cattle for poor performance. If you are harvesteing cattle in the feedlot at 18 months or less who needs that growth curve after that age? There is no need for it unless salvage value of cows rise to say the 1.50$ range for some reason. One cool thing about some breeds of cattle and some lines of cattle is their early maturing growth patterns. I think it is cool to see these early maturing,masculine headed, little Red Angus bulls running in the pastures.
