American Muscle Pic

[roan]

Dragon Lady,
If I can sell calves w/out registration papers at the same price as the ones that are registered, why would I pay the price of a certificate?  I guess I have always looked at the certificate cost as the added value that I think that calf has over the others.  If I don't think an AI bull with a $25 certificate cost is going to produce calves that are $25 better than my herd bull, I'm not going to use that AI bull.
I know that sometimes the idea of a certificate cost is a little irritating (like, why pay someone extra money just because I ended up with a live calf?), but I think I'm better off with some lower priced semen and a certificate cost than with high priced semen and a low certificate cost just because I don't get 100% of my cows settled through AI on one try.

 

[DLD]

Um, okay... Not trying to argue with anybody, but here are a couple of my observations from over 15 years of selling semen.

First of all, semen costs and quantities. Alot of my club calf customers, and virtually none of my commercial customers are willing to even consider semen that costs more than $20 per unit. The purebred breeders are a little more open to spending more, but it still matters to them. If you're going to handle the semen yourself, I would strongly suggest selling it only in 5 straw increments unless you have a tank big enough to work inside when splitting canes. When you try to split it in less than 5 or odd size groups out of a standard sized tank, the semen is just exposed way too much. If it's coming directly from a big distributor (like SEK) or from the stud, they can (if they're willing) split them up safely, otherwise, I won't buy or sell semen in odd increments. Even splitting a goblet (5 straws) off onto another cane out of a standard tank is alot of exposure unless you're well practiced at it. Lower semen quality isn't good for anybody involved - why take the risk? Plus, 5 straws for $100 is a nice round number and an amount that most people are willing to spend if they're truly interested in using a bull.

All I can say about certificates is I'm pretty sure the cheaper they are the more calves you're going to see registered. My personal opinion is try and keep them somewhere in the $25 - $40 range. I think the biggest reason for the higher certificate prices is the theory that only the best calves will be registered out of those bulls with high certificate prices, especially in breeds like the Maines where not every A.I. bull requires a certificate.

I guess my thought would be to sell a package of something like 20 straws of semen and 5 certificates for $500 (and a couple of caps    ), and let package buyers have additional certificates for like $25 each. Other buyers pay $20 a straw and $40 a certificate....

David

 

[DL]

Dragon Lady,
If I can sell calves w/out registration papers at the same price as the ones that are registered, why would I pay the price of a certificate?  I guess I have always looked at the certificate cost as the added value that I think that calf has over the others.  If I don't think an AI bull with a $25 certificate cost is going to produce calves that are $25 better than my herd bull, I'm not going to use that AI bull.
I know that sometimes the idea of a certificate cost is a little irritating (like, why pay someone extra money just because I ended up with a live calf?), but I think I'm better off with some lower priced semen and a certificate cost than with high priced semen and a low certificate cost just because I don't get 100% of my cows settled through AI on one try.

Hey Roan - Welcome. You are saying sort of what I am saying - (I think, at least the first sentence) - I know that the ASA has certs on many (most? all?) AI bulls - the Maines don't. No one has yet convinced me that paying for a certificate is going to improve my bottom line. If a certificate costs $25 and increases the value of my calf $25 how did I win? In fact if you consider the time and cost of contacting the breeder to get him or her to release the certificate and the time to write the check and the now 42 cent postage I have actually lost!~ and the only winner is the person who got money for the certificate. How about lower priced semen and no certificate?

Help me Rhonda - is the argument that if there was no certificate the semen would cost more? and so you pay less for the semen and only pay for the certs on those calves you want to register - I don't get it, if the semen is worth 50 bucks it is worth 50 bucks if its worth 20 its worth 20 if its worth 20 why would I pay 30 for a piece of paper?....DL

Let me try it this way - I have used the Maine bull Caesar - semen cost $20 - had some nice heifers & sold them for some nice money - paid $80 for the certificate which allowed me to register the females. I have used a variety of other Power Plant sons - semen costs $15 to $20 - had some nice heifers & sold them for some nice money - paid no certificate fee - How did paying for the certificate help me?

 

[Joe Boy]

Since my surgery I have not made a post but have read this one with great interest.

First, great looking bull.  Great bulls are prooven not seen.  The real proof is in the pudding, not a picture.  I have been given semen and sold lots of semen for $5 per straw, just to get some calves on the ground to prove a bull.  My best looking cow has had two sorry calves and will not be here next week.

Second, why offend potential customers when they have a different thought than we do?

Third, no one is more independent than the American farmer and he will do it his/her way.  People with different ideas should not be forced off a board, as they might have some wonderful information that will be beneficial to our operation in another area.  Most of my friends are republicans, Christians, and rural Americans and I cherish their friendship and wealth of knowledge, but do not agree with them on some areas.  I would not want to live without their wonderful friendship even though I think they are as radical as many liberals.  All of us are wrong a great deal of the time and forgive ourselves and go on.  Why can't we be as kind to others who might be wrong.  Sometimes only time will tell the honest person if he/she was right or wrong.

Fourth, I view certificates as a tax and hate taxes.  Hotline seems to be a great bull but his $1,000 certificate has held his numbers down.  I have had lots of his grandsons and I have not had but one that I would sell as a club calf prospect, while on the female end I have not had one I have not kept. $40 per straw and $20 for a worthless piece a paper will limit a young unproven bull marketability and a $100 certificate would kill him unless he won the majors.  Our former county agent had a calf in his cull pin that he finally got $1,500 from that won Houston this year. 

Fifth, prices on bulls can be raised and usually do IF he is good enough at passing on his genetics and will click with a large varying sector of mates.  I bred dairy cattle to a bull named Bootmaker and his price went to $500 per ampule.  He made them more black, a little smaller, and great feminine genetics.  His name sold.

Sixth, We just do not know what a bull, cow or calf will do.  I have sold sires that looked very good but disappointed me, only to have them produce a winner at a large show and by that time they had gone to McDonald's.  It will take time and exposure to have a proven sire. 

Seventh, relax and do not take either praise or criticism too seriously, but be open and learn from both.  If you will print off these seven points you can use the sheet to make a paper airplane, or wipe off your boots or give it to the postman with return to sender on it.  Strike up the band and all of us oldies sing along....."She wrote upon it, return to sender,  address unknown, no such number, no such song, ....return to sender."

 

[red]

Welcome back JoeBoy!!!
Hope the hand is doing better, we missed you!

Red (clapping)

 

[red]

(welcome) Roan!

Now if you could come up w/ a purple roan you'll fit in just perfect!

Red

 

[DL]

Joe Boy - welcome back - we missed you! Great post, excellent points, well said! DL

 

[Jill]

(welcome) Roan!

Now if you could come up w/ a purple roan you'll fit in just perfect!

Red

You know Dr. Schaake had the guts a couple of years ago at the Nebraska AGR show to make the comment on the mic in the final drive that the roan calf of Sullivans was very good and the only way you could make that calf better was to make it purple.  Those of use that caught what he was saying were cracking up, glad to see you agree with him!

 

[knabe]

my best boss ever, a woman, once told me:

ideas
10% are good
30 % just really suck
60% don't matter

she also gave me a tampon when i complained once too often.

on that note, if a certificate is so high, then this is reducing the number of registered calves, artificially increasing the quality of the offspring of the calves.  this probably isn't true, becuase the high cert price guarantees only better animals will get used. same thing happens in quarter horses.  how do you prove a young stud other than using on good mares.  that said, if he can't improve my mediocre ones, then i would get annoyed.  however there is a trap here, because the guy with the mediocre cows and variability will want to blame the bull instead of his cows.  so i can see the logic of the certs, to "prove" the bull faster, get better progeny out there.  i'm thinking i'm not offended by any style of marketing these bulls.  a bull i'm using is by one with a high cert price, except for me, the son works better because he has more of what i want.

 

[DLD]

Well said, knabe.

 

[DLD]

on that note, if a certificate is so high, then this is reducing the number of registered calves, artificially increasing the quality of the offspring of the calves.  this probably isn't true, becuase the high cert price guarantees only better animals will get used. same thing happens in quarter horses.

After re-reading this, I do disagree with this part - high certificate costs on a bull whose semen costs are competitive doesn't neccesarily mean he'll only get used on better cows, it just means only the better calves will get registered. In fact, the bull will get used on alot of average cows in hopes of improving them. If the calf's a great one, it's worth papering, if not it was just another $20 straw of semen, no great loss. Not the same as in horses where it's going to cost you the stud fee to get the mare settled, no matter how good the foal is... In that case, yes, only the better mares will get bred to the studs with the higher breeding fees. In the case of high semen cost, your horse comparisim does hold true ( i.e., why so many good Meyer 734 daughters? Because for what his semen costs, most of it is being used to flush some very good cows).

that said, if he can't improve my mediocre ones, then i would get annoyed.  however there is a trap here, because the guy with the mediocre cows and variability will want to blame the bull instead of his cows.  so i can see the logic of the certs, to "prove" the bull faster, get better progeny out there.  i'm thinking i'm not offended by any style of marketing these bulls.  a bull i'm using is by one with a high cert price, except for me, the son works better because he has more of what i want.

This part I do agree with. There's no point in getting upset or offended by how anyone prices their semen and/or certificates - if you feel it's worth it for your program you can buy it, if not pass that one by for one that will work for you. As with knabe using a son of a higher priced bull, he's getting that bulls genetics, plus some traits that suit him even better, in a cheaper package - there's more than one way to skin a cat.

David

 

[DL]

[

This part I do agree with. There's no point in getting upset or offended by how anyone prices their semen and/or certificates - if you feel it's worth it for your program you can buy it, if not pass that one by for one that will work for you. As with knabe using a son of a higher priced bull, he's getting that bulls genetics, plus some traits that suit him even better, in a cheaper package - there's more than one way to skin a cat.

David

And that I believe is the point -sj asked for opinions and he got them - many he didn't like (apparently) - he can make the choice to charge whatever he wants for semen and he can make the choice to charge whatever he wants for the certs. Likewise, people can make the choice to buy the semen and make the choice to buy the cert should they want to register the calves - ain't America great!

 

[sjcattleco]

America is wonderful... It also gives me the right to have someone call and order semen and when I figure out who they are I can tell them NO!!!!

 

[red]

Now that is an interesting comment Scott. Why would you turn someone down for semen?
If it's because you don't like the cattle they raise, maybe they're trying to improve. If it's because you just don't like them, then what are you going to do when the offspring goes on the market?
I'm just curious & please no names on what would make you turn now a semen sale. There are certainly people I wouldn't sell a calf to but that's because of how they'd treat it.

Not picking on you at all but I've never heard that comment made on semen sales.

Red

 

[Show Heifer]

I have read this with post commenting several times to myself about some of the post, both agreeing and disagreeing. So, decided to add my half penny worth....
SJ: Charge how ever much you think your bull is worth....I know some folks won't consider buying something unless it is priced high. Don't know why, I guess they like bragging how much they have spend. But you might consider the walmart idea: sell a lot for a small profit  and therefore make a lot. On certs, thats a tough one. I register a few angus and HATE certs. But I still buy them. I also a lot of the "register-able" calves without papers, to save both me and the buyer money.  Yeah my name gets lost on the sold calf, but the buyer usually comes back and to me, that is what is important.
And I guess you can refuse to sell semen to anyone you want, just as I have the right not to purchase semen from someone just because of who they are and what they represent. I have passed up many a bull just because of who was selling them or their semen. And I don't lose one wink of sleep over it!!  :-*
I like your bull. I think he would do my herd a lot of good! Thought of using him. Still am. But I wonder if my cows are "worthy" of him. Is that something I decide or you? Should I send you photos of the cows I want to breed them to?  ??? And just because I don't register a calf doesn't mean the sire or breeder of that bull will be forgotten. In fact, I can go back almost 6 generations on all my UNREGISTERED cows.
On a side note, I remember a time when I went to a very large sheep sale....asked the very prominent breeder about a ram he had. He ask how many sheep I owned. I replied 15, and Dad 200 but the ram was for ME. He rolled his eyes and said (and I quote) "you can't afford a sheep of this quality. Try looking local."  With that he turned and walked away.  That was 16 years ago, countless herd sires, thousands of dollars and thousands of miles ago. AND TO THIS DAY, I  HAVE NEVER, NEVER, NEVER, PURCHASED A RAM FROM HIM, HIS SON, OR HIS EXTENDED FAMILY. Not even second hand. NEVER. Little did he know, I was there with $2500 to spend, and went home with another ram, that cost more than ANY of his rams brought. Wonder if he still thinks that little comment was worth it? ???
So....take it or leave it....it is just my opinion.
By the way, when you decide what the semen is going to cost, please email me!

 

[DL]

America is wonderful... It also gives me the right to have someone call and order semen and when I figure out who they are I can tell them NO!!!!

WOW!! Now there is a marketing strategy that I never thought of! INCREDIBLE! Are you really trying to sell semen on this bull?? or just make some sort of a perverse statement

Show heifer - it appears we are on at the same time - gotta agree with you on almost everything you said - love the ram story - the moral of the story is you never know who a really good customer will be .....and most of us don't forget being treated badly  ;D ;D​

 

[red]

I don't know how anyone else feels about this whole thread but it to me gotten way beyond what it started out as. This has probably to me gotten to be the most hotly debated & most critical thread we've had.
I'm not picking on anyone person or any group, just the whole make-up of the thread.
Personally, I'd like to just stop the thread or delete most of it & just have a picture of the bull as requested. Then we can go on w/ other topics.

JMO,
Red :-\

 

[DL]

I don't know how anyone else feels about this whole thread but it to me gotten way beyond what it started out as. This has probably to me gotten to be the most hotly debated & most critical thread we've had.
I'm not picking on anyone person or any group, just the whole make-up of the thread.
Personally, I'd like to just stop the thread or delete most of it & just have a picture of the bull as requested. Then we can go on w/ other topics.

JMO,
Red :-\

JMO - Lets delete the whole thing...

 

[red]

Can we just have the orgrinal post of AM so it can serve it's purpose?
Scott- are you fine w/ that?
Let me know, I just think this thread has cause more trouble than it ever should have.
I welcome any feedback but try refrain from any finger pointing.
Probalby the only board that will discuss how to handle something like this without just going & pulling posts on their own.

Red