American Muscle Pic

[knabe]

dang  ))


that top 40 song  Afro  needs to be replaced with a cold front  :-*


(clapping)

 

[DL]

Whoa!! here now!!

is the cattle business a business or are you guys complaining that your hobby costs too much!!!

SHOOT in the Herf association Certs are $100 plus! 

Man the cert thing cuts your breeding costs in half!!! 

Please (herd police)  do not tell me to be nice, this is an opinion of the statement above

Sj you asked for opinions and you got them, but I gotta say I find your second sentence offensive - I don't have the specific numbers right here (I sure can get them) but the vast majority of people with beef cattle have LESS THAN 50 head - in fact the average herd size in Texas is (as I recall) 35 and the average herd size in MI is 12. That means that there are a whole lot of little people that have to balance the Gardners and Morman Church herds. It is unlikely that the Gardners, Morman Church herds and the other big herds will be interested in your bull (even if they had Shorthorns) so your comments risk offending the very people who might be interested in your bull.

Just because a person doesn't have a huge herd doesn't mean they don't make some money. Just because a person doesn't have a huge herd doesn't mean it is a hobby. Just because a person doesn't have a huge herd doesn't mean that decisions balance financial interests with breeding priorities. Just because someone works off the farm doesn't mean the operation is a hobby - if I recall 85% of all cattle operations have some member of the family with outside income.

It is irrelevant what the Herefords charge for a certificate, in fact in regards to your bull it is irrelevant what anybody charges for a certificate, and if you pi** enough people off by insulting them (either intentionally or unintentionally) it will be irrelevant what you charge for a certificate.

I like your bull but as I have said before I don't buy semen on bulls with names I find offensive (OJ, Serial Killer, Kaito etc), I don't buy semen from people who are dishonest in their advertising, and I don't buy semen from people who have no respect for the buyers....you my friend (IMHO) are verging on the latter....convince my I am wrong. DL

 

[knabe]

this discussion is really interesting in that we are exploring how to make a log leap in potential income in the open forum of a discussion, which i think is a good thing.  i see parallels with private treaty sales vs calf sale, ie holding all calves for the sale, even though there are those that violate that implied contract.  people like going to a sale when they "know" all the producers calves will be available, knowing in the back of their minds it may not be true.  trying to please everyone will always result in failure.  it is perhaps appropriate to not have to be cornered into having one bull to market and trying to be all things to all people as one might move up the supply side.  My feeling in the beginning, is that word of mouth, may be a better strategy.  otherwise, i would try and get one of the bigger guys to market the bull, unless you think he might get lost in the crowd and you could make more trying it on your own and factored in the education process of learning that as a business cost and wanted the satisfaction part of doing it yourself factor, which is ok too.

 

[red]

Thank you DL!
I was taught from an early age & learned further will in sales that the customer is always right. now, that may be stretch here but why offend your potential customers by telling them all the time they're wrong?
We have both cattle as a business & a hobby. I don't want a loosing end on either.
Just my liitle thoughts.

Red

 

[garybob]

No, the customer is NOT always right!!!

Red, my dear, many people in this Biz and its many segments, would agree with you. My Daddy, for instance, is the worst about simply raising what is curently popular. I think, what you are saying, is that we should just raise what sells in our local area, get our twice-a-year check at the sale barn, and go to the coffe shop and brag to the neighbors. Is this what you're saying?
We are being stagnant if we are all simply "followers". Right here,in the Southern MO/Northern AR/Northeast OK region, the focus is currently on Black-hided calves. Solid-red Shorthorns, or Red Angus, or good,slick-haired, heavy-boned Herefords that'll feed and grade right up there with the Black Angus calves, won't bring the same price per pound as a Black-Exotic with no Angus in it at all. I will have to disagree with you on this one. In fact, the Black Continental calves without ANY LITTLE DROP of Angus bring more per pound than sure-enough good Angus calves.

Does this make sense to any of you?

 

[shortyjock89]

     Hey there, I guess I'm one of those "hobby farmers" because I only have 15 cows and 35 head altogether, including bulls, show calves, and bred heifers. I am only 18 and just graduated from high school.  Selling my calves each year is the way I make money.  I sell nearly all my calves for show calves every year.  Now before you go saying "Good for you, so does everyone else," let me tell you a little about why I'm even posting.  We AI all of our cows, bred heifers, show heifers. Basically the whole bunch.  I like to talk to the owner of a bull before I buy semen on him.  If this means that I want to breed to one of Joe Schmo's bulls that I saw in TopSires or whatever, I call him.  We chat about the bull and what sort of cows he feels they would work on. I'm sure this is not uncommon in the industry.  I will not buy semen from a guy if he just kind of blows me off and gives me the pedigree of the bull.  I know that people are busy, but if you wanna move that semen, sometimes a little customer service goes a long way.  This holds true for when I go to buy calves or anything like that.  When people call me to ask about calves, I'll chat their ear off if they want to talk.
     I don't understand what the big deal is with buying a certificate.  I won't pay out the a$$ for one or anything, but 15, 20, or even 40 dollars isn't too much to me. If the calf is good enough to register, someone will surely buy it for more than the cost of registering it.  I look at it this way: You want to buy semen on a  bull.  The cost of the semen is $25.  If you have enough confidence in that bull, wouldn't you pay $15 more to get the calf registered?  Your total cost of having that calf would be $40. Not bad for an animal that you plan on making money with.

 

[red]

When I said the customer is always right, I'm meaning that you don't hit him over the head because he's not agreeing w/ you.
If that's the trend in your area, remember trends always change. Not sure how your trend is the same as critizing the people who you are trying to gain as customers.

Red

 

[shorthorns r us]

garybob - where in the ozarks do you call home?

 

[OH Breeder]

No, the customer is NOT always right!!!

Red, my dear, many people in this Biz and its many segments, would agree with you. My Daddy, for instance, is the worst about simply raising what is curently popular. I think, what you are saying, is that we should just raise what sells in our local area, get our twice-a-year check at the sale barn, and go to the coffe shop and brag to the neighbors. Is this what you're saying?
We are being stagnant if we are all simply "followers". Right here,in the Southern MO/Northern AR/Northeast OK region, the focus is currently on Black-hided calves. Solid-red Shorthorns, or Red Angus, or good,slick-haired, heavy-boned Herefords that'll feed and grade right up there with the Black Angus calves, won't bring the same price per pound as a Black-Exotic with no Angus in it at all. I will have to disagree with you on this one. In fact, the Black Continental calves without ANY LITTLE DROP of Angus bring more per pound than sure-enough good Angus calves.

Does this make sense to any of you?

I am not agreeing or disagreeing on this one, BUT, you have to give credit to the folks that have marketed for the black hided calf. Most city folks think "angus beef" is the best. They have no idea the black hided animal may be brown swiss, chianina and less than 5% angus. So, for the folks who marketed the black hides good for you. I am not sure what black hides have to do with the certificates and the post above? Help me on that one.

DL and Red- Agree with the points. The little guy ( i have 18 head total) makes up a large part of the market share. We account for a larger part of the revenue generated in some semen sales. THis may be wrong, but how many commercial producers are buying 500 units of Heat Wave?

 

[Jill]

I have the answer to that one (clapping)NONE!

 

[DL]

I have the answer to that one (clapping)NONE!

You mean the Morman Church cattle aren't bred to Heat Wave? I am shocked, must be because they are bred to WMW (lol) (lol)

 

[farmboy]

BEEF IS BEEF AND WHETHER ITS (the hide that is)  BLACK,WHITE,RED,ROAN,SMOKEY,IT'S STILL BEEF.  (cow)
OH B, I ONLY HAVE13 COWZ AND A HERD BULL.

4 HALF SHORTYS
A RAMBO x FB ANGUS(she's an excellent cow)
A  COW WHO'S MATERNAL GRANDFATHER IS TOTAL PLAY AND FATHER WAS A POWER PLANT SON
A GOOD CHAROLAIS HOLSTIEN CROSS COW
A BIG RED MAINE COW (she's the best)
OUR BULL IS A PALE FACE x ANGUS COW
AND THE REST I CAN'T RECALL AT THE MOMENT, I'D HAVE TO CONSULT MY DAD.


CITY PEOPLE WHO THINK THE BEST BEEF IS ANGUS ARE JUST BLINDED BY THEIR LACK OF KNOWLEGE OF BREEDS OF CATTLE. I'M SURE ANGUS IS THE MOST ADVERTISED AND POPULAR TYPE OF BEEF BUT IT'S NOT THERE FAULT. BEEF IS BEEF AND IT TASTE GOOD ;D

 

[sjcattleco]

man we need to step back and take a breath!!!!!  

First of all I thought i was doing a good thing by taking and using 99% of the advice I was getting from you guys... I appreciate it very much..... then the uproar hit about the cert deal..... I have never questioned cert prices but I do look at the calf wiht a very critical eye!!!  I just looked at certs  as a BUSINESS cost!  I was surpriesed to hear people scream about the price of a cert when  IMO your calf is worth double than market price and you were not nailed for the original cost in the begining  I think we are trying to pick Knat poop out of a pile of pepper.... Hey if the cert bothers you call me we can work it out.....This is my show I can do what ever I want.... Kinda a plus rather than dealing with SEK or Semex.... Shoot who knows I might even include some extra FREE!!! or send a hat... I am a pretty good guy!!!

... I did not belittle anyone about the size of their operation... go back and check.... I made a comment about whether we are talking about a hobby or a business....Can noone see that a $25/ unit cost plus cert is a better deal than $30 with certs free... If  you guys think that is the way to do it i will go for it.... just call and I will keep a record of it!!!!and I will send the ASA a check for the certs myself!!! But do you know of any business that sells a product then takes a gamble of having to give back 20 % of their income for someone elses benefit??

 

[knabe]

what i'm really wondering is what kind of cow to breed my white bull to.

http://www.abc.net.au/science/scribblygum/September2000/moby.htm


;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
sorry, couldn't resist, and not a comment on the direction of the thread in anyway.

 

[farmboy]

I'M NOT CRITISCIZING (sp) ANYONE ABOUT THE SIZE OF THERE HERD, I WAZ JUST RELATING TO SOME SMALL OPERATIONS  (cow)

 

[OH Breeder]

....Can noone see that a $25/ unit cost plus cert is a better deal than $30 with certs free... If  you guys think that is the way to do it i will go for it.... just call and I will keep a record of it!!!!and I will send the ASA a check for the certs myself!!! But do you know of any business that sells a product then takes a gamble of having to give back 20 % of their income for someone elses benefit??

Scott, this really is an abstract concept that by buying an inflated certificate price it some how increases the value of the progeny. I cull pretty hard and do not have the room to hold on to stock if it is not making it  in my herd. Whether I can register them or not in my operation is a small contributing factor. The industry that usually buys my stock is showing on the club circuit. WIth the invent of AOB and Crossbreds folks have registerable stock but choose to show AOB or Crossbred. Maybe I am a small share of the market who knows.... ???
More important- I think that your bull could be a cow changer for some. I also think he might add some performance to harder made club females. I wish nothing but the best for you in your endeavors with this sire. Anxious to see how the calves come out. What ever you come up with keep us in the loop. Looking forward to the ad in Shorthorn Journal. Maybe we can say, we knew that guy and that bull when they were just on the internet.
PS
Auto industry- they are giving tons back in rebates and refunds to move their product. By doing so, some automakers are still moving vehicles.

 

[garybob]

I think that too often, in feeder calf country, there isn't enough dialogue with people that feed the calves that are sold in this region. Right now, people should be paying attention to the end product and the economics of producing it. If you are paying a buck-65 for an eight-weight black exotic that'll never grade choice, it'll never pencil out. Maybe that is why Red-breed English calves are stolen---pay less for them as calves, get more for'em in the box. As to tying my post to the cost of certs, well, I guess I'm rambling away from the main topic.
I was answering a blanket statement that the customer is always right.  Been tired of getting my Shorthorn calves docked by buyers who always tell me I need a Black Limousin to put on my "Milking Shorthorns". Dammit!!!!!! I've never had Dairy Shorthorns, but these guys, no matter what you tell them, can't seem to get it through their  skulls, that the Beef Shorthorn and the Milker cattle aren't the same critter.  I  can't wait for national ID,or Value-based marketing, or some form of economic pressure, to get enough of these hard-headed old farts to re-think their viewpoints on hide color ALWAYS equating to marbling and tenderness. The same coffeeshop professors who used to push the heck out of the yellow cattle are now saying they will never use anything but black bulls (regardless of breed). Yes, trends will always change, but not fast enough here, in my opinion. We have always been 15 years behind any major change in genetics and marketing. I can remember ( I was 12 years old) when you couldn't sell a calf, unless he was perfectly Hereford-marked. This was in 1982, LONG after producers in other regions of the country were big-time into the exotics. We were the last strong-hold of the Hereford breed, at the time.  Black Baldies didn't top the market, even then!

No, the customer is NOT always right!!!

Red, my dear, many people in this Biz and its many segments, would agree with you. My Daddy, for instance, is the worst about simply raising what is curently popular. I think, what you are saying, is that we should just raise what sells in our local area, get our twice-a-year check at the sale barn, and go to the coffe shop and brag to the neighbors. Is this what you're saying?
We are being stagnant if we are all simply "followers". Right here,in the Southern MO/Northern AR/Northeast OK region, the focus is currently on Black-hided calves. Solid-red Shorthorns, or Red Angus, or good,slick-haired, heavy-boned Herefords that'll feed and grade right up there with the Black Angus calves, won't bring the same price per pound as a Black-Exotic with no Angus in it at all. I will have to disagree with you on this one. In fact, the Black Continental calves without ANY LITTLE DROP of Angus bring more per pound than sure-enough good Angus calves.

Does this make sense to any of you?

I am not agreeing or disagreeing on this one, BUT, you have to give credit to the folks that have marketed for the black hided calf. Most city folks think "angus beef" is the best. They have no idea the black hided animal may be brown swiss, chianina and less than 5% angus. So, for the folks who marketed the black hides good for you. I am not sure what black hides have to do with the certificates and the post above? Help me on that one.

DL and Red- Agree with the points. The little guy ( i have 18 head total) makes up a large part of the market share. We account for a larger part of the revenue generated in some semen sales. THis may be wrong, but how many commercial producers are buying 500 units of Heat Wave?

 

[garybob]

When I said the customer is always right, I'm meaning that you don't hit him over the head because he's not agreeing w/ you.
If that's the trend in your area, remember trends always change. Not sure how your trend is the same as critizing the people who you are trying to gain as customers.

Red

I guess I have been guilty of arguing with sale barn owners and buyers, and ill-informed friends and family, about the price/value relationship of Shorthorn cattle, compared to the other, more popular breeds. Same principle here. If you always take what people are willing to give you, then, that is what they will always offer you, price-per-pound wise. same principle here. Scott and I agree that the entire gene profile of "purebred" Shorthorn Cattle is so jacked up, and people NEED to be made aware of the long-term damage to a breed's reputation all this show-cattle breeding has done! Otherwise, they are gonna keep doing "what sells", and no progress will be made, and this backward slide will continue.

 

[garybob]

garybob - where in the ozarks do you call home?

Raised in Carroll County, Arkansas, born in Harrison, in 1970. Graduated in 1996 from UA with degree in Ag-Ed. Raised around the commercial cattle industry. Like many, my love of Shorthorns started in the show ring, but I have a different sense of direction for the Shorthorn breed.

TMI?

 

[DL]

man we need to step back and take a breath!!!!! 

First of all I thought i was doing a good thing by taking and using 99% of the advice I was getting from you guys... I appreciate it very much..... then the uproar hit about the cert deal..... I have never questioned cert prices but I do look at the calf wiht a very critical eye!!!  I just looked at certs  as a BUSINESS cost!  I was surpriesed to hear people scream about the price of a cert when  IMO your calf is worth double than market price and you were not nailed for the original cost in the begining  I think we are trying to pick Knat poop out of a pile of pepper.... Hey if the cert bothers you call me we can work it out.....This is my show I can do what ever I want.... Kinda a plus rather than dealing with SEK or Semex.... Shoot who knows I might even include some extra FREE!!! or send a hat... I am a pretty good guy!!!

... I did not belittle anyone about the size of their operation... go back and check.... I made a comment about whether we are talking about a hobby or a business....Can noone see that a $25/ unit cost plus cert is a better deal than $30 with certs free... If  you guys think that is the way to do it i will go for it.... just call and I will keep a record of it!!!!and I will send the ASA a check for the certs myself!!! But do you know of any business that sells a product then takes a gamble of having to give back 20 % of their income for someone elses benefit??

SJ - you asked for opinions - you got them - you didn't like them - but it appears that instead of incorporating them into your repertoire you decided to trip the messangers (not shoot them)  and then talk about not taking it personal and the negative things about the internet - to me this is a case of asking for cake but not liking the flavor - you may look at certs as a business cost, clearly others don't - from a business standpoint many of us can market calves without certs for the same price as with certs - so from a business standpoint it may be an excess expense with no return - from a business standpoint I do not see any added value for my program with certs - of course there is the added financial benefit for the bull owner ----(you don't know me, you can't see my face, this is to be interpreted exactly as written - no sarcasm, no hidden meaning, no make up - just words as written