Americans ideas of living in Canada

[knabe]

 What are the statistics something like 70% of Americans don't have health insurance?  What that implies to me is that the people who most need it are those least able to afford it.  

fail.  maybe 70% percent of your comments lack factual basis.

the second comment lacks factual basis as well.

comments like those are often used for agitation purposes and class warfare.  it's often called populism.

 

[GONEWEST]

I enjoyed reading Marks comments. One thing that was interesting was your definition of "works best."  As I understand it one of the things that made it better in your view was that small town had a new hospital. My thought is why does a town of 5,000 people need a hospital when (surely) one is 30 miles away in Red Deer? Even more so why does a town with 7000 people need a hospital when there is are two or three already 10 or 12 miles away in CA? I do not want the government taking my money to build a hospital that keeps people from having to drive 30 miles to get medical care.

Here, we live in what we call a small town, 100,000 people. Two major medical centers that cover an area of about 100 60 miles north, east and west. People who aren't in the "top 3%" certainly have no problem receiving the same care I do as one of these hospitals alone had $300 million in indigent care expenses in 2008. Almost 3/4 of that was care for illegal aliens, mostly in neo-natal care. Doesn't seem like you need to be in the top 3% to get care. Some of the best heart doctors on the planet are in this "small town.". 60 miles to the south is one of the worlds premier health care facilities and medical schools. My dad has seen 6 specialists and had 4 procedures in the last month that have cost him zero out of pocket expense. There is a fully staffed fire department with state of the art equipment and ambulances within 5 miles of 87% of the homes in our co If the insurance company I am with is too expensive or unresponsive, I can choose another one. I understand that my premiums are paying indirectly the bills of those illegals, but that is the problem and fault  of our government who isn't running shuttle buses to the border every hour, not an insurance company.

The bottom line is that I do not want  money taken from me to pay for your new hospital out in the middle of nowhere or your gall bladder operation. If you want health care like I have then you need to live near where I do and buy insurance. And I have no problem taking care of people who can't take care of themselves. Our government has destroyed the economic environment that is needed for real jobs to be created that pay people enough money to buy houses and cars and health insurance. That's what they should be working on, creating an environment where business and manufacturing facilities would be able and willing to provide good paying jobs with benefits. Then being able to afford your health insurance would not be a problem.

I would rather live out in the wide open spaces where I could drive for hours without seeing anyone. But then there would be consequences like no nearby hospital. Just because someone else chooses to live there, doesn't mean I should have to work to pay for them to have the same level of health care and facilities that I do. To each his own, but the government has no right to be in the Robin Hood business.

 

[JbarL]

Our health care may not be the best in the world but at least I know that if I need to use it for some serious reason I can.  What are the statistics something like 70% of Americans don't have health insurance?  What that implies to me is that the people who most need it are those least able to afford it.  

From things I've heard the US system has become a business - the health care business suddenly shifts the emphasis from the health and well being to PROFIT.  I can't imagine being denied services because it won't make anyone enough money.
But in both countries that is where the problem lies is the money.  We lose doctors and nurses to the US where they can make more money.  I'm a little young to remember when the doctor was equally concerned about his patients as money - the days older people talk about when you could barter for a doctors services, and if they knew this might be the only way to get compensated they'd do it.  I know my mother told me they did a partial trade of something or other and cash to have her little brother delivered, and at their home none the less - wow what are the odds of getting a doctor at your house nowadays?
Canadian systems very somewhat from province to province but at least its available.  It too does need some reform,  example in Saskatchewan if you need say an MRI you wait in line unless your a member of a local sports franchise then you can pay extra to get it done off hours and ASAP,  but this does not apply to the general public, we have to go next door to a private MRI clinic in Alberta.  Make any sense?  
OH Breeder Americans aren't the only ones afraid of change lots of Canadians are too - mention changing the health care system to alot of elderly people in Saskatchewan and they'll chase you down, which they can do thanks to that new hip, and beat you with the walker they got while it was healing!!

in order to be correctly pompulus in any  topic it must start out like " i dont know for sure but"......??.....it may be  less agitatinous to others?....give us a break  knabster... :...    are you sure it isnt the reality of the rest of this analogy, that may have seemed so ..."scary"      ... jbarl  

 

[JbarL]

 What are the statistics something like 70% of Americans don't have health insurance?  What that implies to me is that the people who most need it are those least able to afford it.  

fail.  maybe 70% percent of your comments lack factual basis.

the second comment lacks factual basis as well.

comments like those are often used for agitation purposes and class warfare.  it's often called populism.

 

[aj]

Does Canada have a "medicinal Moosehead beer" program. That might sway me. ;D

 

[justintime]

We're still working on the " medicinal Moosehead" program. Typical of bureaucrats, they have legalized " medicinal pot". If  you can get a doctor to verify that you need pot to suppress pain, you can get a license to " grow your own". Lots of people with MS on this program. The government also has it's own pot factories in some abandoned mines, far below the ground. I can just imagine the power bill to those grow operations! Total stupidity in my opinion.

In my opinion, the biggest problem we have is that, like any other bureaucratic system, our health care system has too many layers of people working in jobs in hospitals, that have little to do with care of patients. Yes administrators are needed in any system, but it seems to me that we have " too many chiefs and not enough Indians". Like I said in a previous post, I think the best model is a combination of the American system with our system.

It was mentioned earlier that some 5000 population towns have a hospital here in Canada. That may be more common in Alberta than in other parts of the country. It certainly is not the case here in Saskatchewan, where it is almost the opposite. Some small towns have converted their hospitals to basis health care facilities, where local people can get basic first health care, but if your illness or injury is more minor in nature, you are sent to a larger hospital, sometimes 150 miles from where you live.We have lots of people, in remote areas who have to go more than 100 miles for a baby delivery. This is unfortunate, but no system can provide first class health care for remote areas.

Alberta is a bit unique as, for many years, it was blessed with overflowing bank accounts, obtained from the oil patch. That has changed a bit in recent years, however, this has provided their population with many local benefits.

 

[knabe]

in order to be correctly pompulus in any  topic it must start out like " i dont know for sure but"......??.....it may be  less agitatinous to others?....give us a break  knabster... :...    are you sure it isnt the reality of the rest of this analogy, that may have seemed so ..."scary"      ... jbarl  

the rest of the analogy fails as well.  since when were doctors not motivated by profit? 

what about lottery based lawsuits like the fake ones john edwards imposed on society that were based on emotion rather than fact.  ever think that edwards, the jury, and the plaintiffs were not motivated by money? 

i decree that jbarl to set up a compensation table for goods and services so there won't be any arguments over what's fair or not.  only then can we have a truly equal society. 

 

[Mark H]

That small town hospital in Innisfail is part of a integrated network of care facilities  through out the Region and Province.  It is always busy and specializes in care that the town needs such as extended care.  Also why should patients always travel to Red Deer?  If the demand warrants it problems are taken care of close to the need.  Also some peope will go from a city of 80,00 to the small townfor treatment -no big deal.  Also keep in mind the hospital in Santa Paula went bankrupt and no hospital fora population of 60,000 existed for around 2 years.  The county ( big bad government) took the hospital over because it was a 40 minute ride in an ambulance to Ventura or Santa Clarita and the local populace was pleading for this to happen as a result.  No private hospital holding company would run the hospital due to the lack of insurance for farm workers.  Remote areas in California use heilotransport  and it is expensive so reopening the hospital in Santa Paula made sense.
Also the United States deindustrialized in the past couple of decades due in no small part to the "tax" of providing health care to employees.  The big three car companies became social welfare agencies providing health care to employees and retirees.  No foreign manufacturer faces this expense and it puts the American economy at a crushing disadvantage versus the EU or Asia.  This does not help the trade deficit or job creation.
Immigration to Canada in the 20th and 21th century has always been higher than in the United States.  This "bubble" will continue because these immigrants give Canada business contacts in the rest of the world and provide the means for Canada to compete better in the world economy.  If you went to any major Canadian city you would be amazed by the variety of different cultures around you and the numbers.  Toronto is the biggest Italian city outside Italy. Edmonton is the largest Ukrainian city outside Ukraine etc.  Every small town has Chinese and Greek restaurants.  Small towns are being impacted full force in Canada.  In California immigration is from one source Mexico and is largely unskilled making the debate rather one dimensional in California.
Lastly Gonewest if you lived in a small town unless every one has access to health care neither would you.  Health care systems require planning, staffing and funding. None of this happens spontaneously.  Iit requires a means to get things done.  This is want the Canadian health care system does.  Claiming you would care for the those with out the means to pay for access rings hollow with out a realistic plan to do so.

 

[JbarL]

in order to be correctly pompulus in any  topic it must start out like " i dont know for sure but"......??.....it may be  less agitatinous to others?....give us a break  knabster... :...    are you sure it isnt the reality of the rest of this analogy, that may have seemed so ..."scary"      ... jbarl  

i decree that jbarl to set up a compensation table for goods and services so there won't be any arguments over what's fair or not.  only then can we have a truly equal society. 

thats your problem......you actually believe you deserve a decree..from me and/or anyone else .....it just dont work that way....all the right can do is talk about what damage "this" issue  "might" do.........i'm not sure  about the canadians but i think we have some  "older" issues to deal with as well.....a) stopping illegal immigration/    b)  paying for bush's wars and armies and rebuilding the middle east....our old problems didnt just disapear just because we handed over the presidency.....the canadians/ british/ sweds/  laugh at us.....they see us argue over every thing except  the real soulutions.....i still stand by the preable to the consitiuion and the interputation of " good and welfare" of its people to solve any "argument" that may arise concering medical care for amercians .....it still boils down to whether medical care is a right or a privleage.....wheter or not you  personally like it / understand it / or agree / disagree with it ...deserves no decree ......from me especially.....call your congressmen and senators....  get a compensation table from them.....having a truly equal society doesnt mean its because knabe jor jbarl  agrees with it....        jbarl

 

[afhm]

Canadians do have this funny habit of putting brown gravy on their french fries instead of ketchup.  It's not bad though.  Also, they have no clue how to make a good burrito.

Brown gravy on fries is awesome!

 

[GONEWEST]

Also why should patients always travel to Red Deer?

Because they choose to live 40 miles away, that's why. What is so hard to understand about that? Why should you steal from one person to provide services for another that chooses to live 40 miles away?

Also keep in mind the hospital in Santa Paula went bankrupt and no hospital fora population of 60,000 existed for around 2 years.

First the population of Santa Paula is 30,000, not 60,000 and there are at least 10 hospitals in Ventura County, CA. why do they need another one?

Immigration to Canada in the 20th and 21th century has always been higher than in the United States.

You must be on that program JIT had mentioned. There are 5 times as many legal immigrants to the US each year as Canada. There are a gazillion more illegal immigrants into the US each year and I pay for their health care and I am sick of it. If there was no health care provided to illegal immigrants the cost of health care in this country would plummit.

Toronto is the biggest Italian city outside Italy. Edmonton is the largest Ukrainian city outside Ukraine etc.

And that is such a good thing because??


Lastly Gonewest if you lived in a small town unless every one has access to health care neither would you.

Didn't I say in my note that I would choose not to live there? I wold much rather live in a less populated area, but there are consequences to that decision. One of them is not having convenient access to health care. If the people in that small town want to pay for some facilities themselves, I am all for it. But don't take the money from people who live in Edmonton to fund something for people in Innisfails. They choose to live there.


Health care systems require planning, staffing and funding. None of this happens spontaneously.  Iit requires a means to get things done.  This is want the Canadian health care system does.

What the Canadian system does is take money from those who have it and give it to those who don't. That's the definition of socialism. Marxism is "from each according to his means to each according to his needs."  Services do require means but services for you should require YOUR means and not MY means. Why is it such a bad thing to require people to be responsible for themselves? The government should focus on making an environment for business that gives people the opportunity to be able to provide for themselves. Not playing Ronin Hood and taking form one to give to another.

I am all for taking care of those who can't care for themselves and due to the policies of our government, there are more than ever before. I am not however, for taking care of those who either can and won't or are here illegally.

The one thing that the recent debates in this country has shown is just how polarized Americans are in the way they view the role of the government and the way they view socialism. Likewise there is no middle ground on morality issues. I believe it has gotten to the point that it would be better to divide the country in two and allow one to be governed one way and the other the other way. If this continues to fester we will be in for some hard times in the future.

 

[GONEWEST]

JBARL the canadians/ british/ sweds/  laugh at us

The fact that anyone in this country gives a flying flip over what anyone in any other country thinks of us is the basis for most of our problems. It has caused the vast majority of deaths in these ridiculous wars we are in. It is the root of  trade imbalance. It's the source of dependence on foreign oil. It's the source of all the money thrown away to other countries when we have none for our own. Many Americans and certainly this government are more concerned about other countries, their well being and what they think of us than they are of what is best for Americans and our own country.

 

[Mark H]

No one outside the United States is laughing at us.  They are concerned about the ability of the United States to defer consumption and make the investments it needs to stay the leader of the free world.  This goes beyond health care.  Look at the state of education on international achievement tests for math and science we are getting hammered.  It is getting to the point where we can not build major weapon systems critical for the defense of our country with out relying on expertise or parts purchased in China.  What sort of steps should we take to ensure these commercial electronic parts (COTS) are available to the DOD if we have a falling out with China?  Build an isolationist wall around the US that will allow American industry to stagnant?  The ability of the United States to be a world leader is dependent on its economy.  Steps undertaken to reinforce American capitalism is nothing but a good thing and some cooperative problem solving is the best way to get things done think about the roads, sewer system, navy army etc.
Ventura county has 5 acute care hospitals with emergency care.  I can name them if you want.  Given the hills, mountains, and population distribution this can leave some areas far from a hospital.  By the way I know the city of Santa Paula has a population of 15,000.  I am talking about the entire Santa Clarita Valley from Santa Paula to Piru.  I would agree with you that the most isolated parts of the county such as the Lockwood Valley should not count on subsidized health care.  But they do resort to helicoptering patients out at great public expense so we already are subsidizing isolated rural communities. Before you get alarmed about this think of this if you are ever caught in an accident in an isolated rural area you better hope they can get care to you-your life may depend on it.
I can certify that Canada has more ethnic diversity than the United States if you have ever been to Canada you could easily see this.  Canada has its share of illegal aliens gaming the system-just check any Canadian newspaper. By the wat even if some one is illegal I want them as healthy as possible Why? because of public health concerns.  You catch the same diseases as they do-how would you feel about an epidemic raging on your doorstep?  What specifically is your solution to the problem?

 

[JbarL]

No one outside the United States is laughing at us.  They are concerned about the ability of the United States to defer consumption and make the investments it needs to stay the leader of the free world.  This goes beyond health care.  Look at the state of education on international achievement tests for math and science we are getting hammered.  It is getting to the point where we can not build major weapon systems critical for the defense of our country with out relying on expertise or parts purchased in China.  What sort of steps should we take to ensure these commercial electronic parts (COTS) are available to the DOD if we have a falling out with China?  Build an isolationist wall around the US that will allow American industry to stagnant?  The ability of the United States to be a world leader is dependent on its economy.  Steps undertaken to reinforce American capitalism is nothing but a good thing and some cooperative problem solving is the best way to get things done think about the roads, sewer system, navy army etc.
Ventura county has 5 acute care hospitals with emergency care.  I can name them if you want.  Given the hills, mountains, and population distribution this can leave some areas far from a hospital.  By the way I know the city of Santa Paula has a population of 15,000.  I am talking about the entire Santa Clarita Valley from Santa Paula to Piru.  I would agree with you that the most isolated parts of the county such as the Lockwood Valley should not count on subsidized health care.  But they do resort to helicoptering patients out at great public expense so we already are subsidizing isolated rural communities. Before you get alarmed about this think of this if you are ever caught in an accident in an isolated rural area you better hope they can get care to you-your life may depend on it.
I can certify that Canada has more ethnic diversity than the United States if you have ever been to Canada you could easily see this.  Canada has its share of illegal aliens gaming the system-just check any Canadian newspaper. By the wat even if some one is illegal I want them as healthy as possible Why? because of public health concerns.  You catch the same diseases as they do-how would you feel about an epidemic raging on your doorstep?   What specifically is your solution to the problem?

Spacifically its not my ( or anyone certain persons)  "personal" opinion or remedy that is ever even considered in the process.........we elected our represenetives....then we call them bums....then we start our name calling and " what ifs'.....then we hinge on polls on the tv news to let us no what we think....then the tide swings one way....then the other.. as the weeks go by..... then the president speaks...hes a bum, too....more polls on the tv news....then the tv news starts concentrating on the bush crooks and that  on going story....another bit of business left to be delt with......then we complain about "our side "  being distracted...by politics.......and me or anyone else hasnt even had a chance to" specifically say anything" about it yet !  others watch us complain about  the way things are here....then watch us call all the bums ...treasonous communists for for any remedy they recommend....i suppose the ones that have watched and laughed the last 30 yrs probally are taking it a bit more serious now...jbarl

 

[knabe]

thats your problem......you actually believe you deserve a decree..from me and/or anyone else . it was a tongue in cheek joke regarding your continual comments regarding evil corporations making profit. the issue is competition, there is very little in health care which is the major reason prices go up.  the government regulates the industry and doesn't promote competition.


.....it just dont work that way....all the right can do is talk about what damage "this" issue  "might" do....uh, not really.  there is a plan that has been offered for quite a while which includes competition, which always drives prices down and service up, tort reform regarding the lottery based lawsuit arena, and a host of other ideas which the left does a better job of talk about what damage that might do, and the media sucks it right up.


paying for bush's wars and armies and rebuilding the middle east..why are we in iraq, afghanistan, korea, germany, japan, etc.  obama could get us out today along with congress.  obama is simply bush III, well actually IV if you count prescott.

..our old problems didnt just disapear just because we handed over the presidency.why not, with that logic, you can't pin any blame on bush.

...the canadians/ british/ sweds/  laugh at us.....they see us argue over every thing except   the real soulutions..you mean like technology to solve health care problems, new surgery techniques etc.

...i still stand by the preable to the consitiuion and the interputation of " good and welfare" of its people to solve any "argument" that may arise concering medical care for amercians .if you read what the founders thought, it was protecting the country.  find me some examples that the founding fathers set up programs to provide health care for everyone. ....

it still boils down to whether medical care is a right or a privleage..privilege  HOW DARE A DOCTOR CHARGE FOR HEALTH CARE, who will decide how much we can afford?...wheter or not you  personally like it / understand it / or agree / disagree with it ...deserves no decree ......from me especially.....call your congressmen and senators....  get a compensation table from them.(that's exactly what we don't need because there is no incentive to improve)....having a truly equal society doesnt mean its because knabe jor jbarl  agrees with it....         jbarl

a truly equal society is equal opportunity, not equal outcome based on unequal effort, natural ability etc.  if you don't charge for health care, how will you curb excessive consumption.    medicare is a "right" for senior citizens. it's underreimbursed, it's broke, people don't pay into the system.  if you want health care as a right, you can't have infinite care.  you need a plan like social security that has a limit.  if you want more, get a better job, save money, pay a higher premium, if no one pays in, you won't have a vehicle to pay for it.  not understanding this is believing that money should not exist, which i used to believe was the way to do things until i started looking at societies which had no efficient means of exchanging goods. money is simply a means to break down bartering into chunks that are a different size than the goods or service being provided.  it is a way to store goods and services so one doesn't need to store a perishable good to trade for one that isn't.

the problem with socialism, again, is that it doesn't work when it runs out of other people's money.

 

[aj]

I think one option would be to build a special rail system into Canada. It would be cheapest just to send Americans to Canada for health care. It's free up there. Hopefully some of the "projects" people would stay up there.

 

[Doc]

JBARL the canadians/ british/ sweds/  laugh at us

The fact that anyone in this country gives a flying flip over what anyone in any other country thinks of us is the basis for most of our problems. It has caused the vast majority of deaths in these ridiculous wars we are in. It is the root of  trade imbalance. It's the source of dependence on foreign oil. It's the source of all the money thrown away to other countries when we have none for our own. Many Americans and certainly this government are more concerned about other countries, their well being and what they think of us than they are of what is best for Americans and our own country.

Gonewest , I couldn't agree more. We are the only country that fights in a war & are worried more about how other countries perceive than what results we get. I don't care how much gas costs in England or anywhere else(like you are always hearing the reporters talk about). I heard last night that they are thinking about in Iraq, about asking us to put our troops back in the streets because they aren't ready after all .

 

[aj]

Did Canada participate in WW 2? They had some people in it didn't they?

 

[Telos]

JBARL the canadians/ british/ sweds/  laugh at us

The fact that anyone in this country gives a flying flip over what anyone in any other country thinks of us is the basis for most of our problems. It has caused the vast majority of deaths in these ridiculous wars we are in. It is the root of  trade imbalance. It's the source of dependence on foreign oil. It's the source of all the money thrown away to other countries when we have none for our own. Many Americans and certainly this government are more concerned about other countries, their well being and what they think of us than they are of what is best for Americans and our own country.

Gonewest , I couldn't agree more. We are the only country that fights in a war & are worried more about how other countries perceive than what results we get. I don't care how much gas costs in England or anywhere else(like you are always hearing the reporters talk about). I heard last night that they are thinking about in Iraq, about asking us to put our troops back in the streets because they aren't ready after all .
[/quote

 

[JbarL]

it was a tongue in cheek joke regarding your continual comments regarding evil corporations making profit.
???  i dont believe ive ever said anyting about "evil corporations" making a profit.....??   your paranoia is showing again

..... you mean like technology to solve health care problems, new surgery techniques etc.
no i mean they laugh at us ...as we ( private citizens) waste our lives and time complaining about the bums we elected
.
...if you read what the founders thought, it was protecting the country.  find me some examples that the founding fathers set up programs to provide health care for everyone. ...show me where health care is ommited

HOW DARE A DOCTOR CHARGE FOR HEALTH CARE, who will decide how much we can afford?.......your words not mine....

that's exactly what we don't need because there is no incentive to improve ....you have alot of faith in "incentive"...maybe that could be your new party....the Incentive Party.....

.having a truly equal society doesnt mean its because knabe jor jbarl  agrees with it....    

a truly equal society is equal opportunity, not equal outcome based on unequal effort, natural ability etc.  ........no one goes " that extra mile"...just to get sick....our "oppertunity" to get well has nothing to do with our efforts or natural  abilities...jbarl.