Angus "Classing out" @ Austin

[BIGTEX]

On lautners' website it says the Grand Angus at Ft. Worth was sired by Heat Wave!!!!!!!!!! Amazing they would advertise that. You would think that this would make the people doing the classifying less credible.

 

[JSchroeder]

Show Heifer, you’ve already shown by your blood typing and breed elimination suggestions that you lack the knowledge of the system to have anything resembling such a strong opinion on it.  Throwing another temper tantrum and yelling doesn’t give your opinion any more weight, it just shows you are still you.

Sorry, I’m not going to play this time.

 

[R1Livestock]

On lautners' website it says the Grand Angus at Ft. Worth was sired by Heat Wave!!!!!!!!!! Amazing they would advertise that. You would think that this would make the people doing the classifying less credible.

It does make the classifiers less credible, and I'm sure they know that.  But it also expands Lautner's market for Heatwave, if it wasn't big enough.  Now you can breed Heatwave to even your frailest boned, least muscled cattle and hope that the bone and muscle comes out in the middle somewhere, and bang, you have an angus steer now!  By and large, this system is part of what makes the game fun.  All livestock shows are just that in the end, merely a game.  It is no worse than false-papered cattle winning up North.  If you think a calf is too good and will class out, don't pick it to feed; or at least know going in you run this risk.  It's that simple. 

 

[Torch]

Grew up in Texas and showed in Texas. When I classed out went north. Never showed in a Texas show after that. I won the Tulsa State Fair that year. The classification system is for the show steer people and that's who profits from it. The Heatwave winning "Angus" is the result.

By Jeff's statements you can see how narrowed visioned it is. I decided it wasn't worth changing and found a place where your animal is judged in the ring not outside of it.
JMO

 

[Show Heifer]

Grew up in Texas and showed in Texas. When I classed out went north. Never showed in a Texas show after that. I won the Tulsa State Fair that year. The classification system is for the show steer people and that's who profits from it. The Heatwave winning "Angus" is the result.

By Jeff's statements you can see how narrowed visioned it is. I decided it wasn't worth changing and found a place where your animal is judged in the ring not outside of it.
JMO

Nice statement Torch!  Glad you found success elsewhere!

 

[JSchroeder]

Speaking of narrow visioned, where do American breed steers show in the Tulsa State Fair?

 

[yuppiecowboy]

First of all if you do not show in, sell to, or at least reside in Texas, why are you posting an opinion? For all I know there is French Lop rabbit board that is raising a ruckuss (for the umpteenth time) about verifying ear length standards at Great Rabbit Round Up in Hackensack NJ. I wouldnt know because IT AINT MY BUSINESS. Im not from NJ, nor do I show rabbits so why would anyone there give a hoot about my opinion of rabbit classification there?

However they do whatever they do at Texas shows, they do it because it works for them and obviously they have experience enough to know what does and doesnt work.

People whine, whether it be getting sifted, where they placed, who judged, temperature of ice cream, etc.

I can tell you this, no one from Iowa has any business telling anyone from Texas how to ensure animals are shown by their legitimate parentage. Blood typing? please. Registration papers? all that proves is that ink sticks to paper. DNA? For petes sake its a 4h steer show.

At least down there you can be honest about it. When there is a line seemingly a hundred head deep of steers trying to get into a class of a certain type, the most common sense approach to me is 3 guys opinion yeah, or nay and move on.

I am sure if a better, faster way that appeals to the people THAT MATTER comes along they will use it.

 

[A.P.]

Jeff and yuppie are dead on this is a texas issue. We show a 16 breed format for several reasons. The most important in my opinion is that it many more kids a chance to be sucessful. Their are a total 76 breed champs and reserves at the three texas majors and that dosen't count the state fair, san angelo or austin.

If your concerned about classed out  and just want to show by weight we have that covered to its called the AOB class.

We have raised americans and red angus for years and we always tell our customers their is always a chance of being classed out.

We have the best junior show system in the country. Texas sells more placing steers at majors than show up at most state fairs.

One last thing do you guys who raise these cattle realize what would happen if we did away with the breed system. every person that raised a breed type steer would not get them sold. That includes the yankees that are chiming in right now, that includes herfs shorties simmis angus, red angus, limmis, and any american cross. Be careful what you wish for

 

[ZNT]

I am from Texas, and I do feel the system has room for improvement.  I personally am for submitting DNA samples on all steers at validation time, at the cost to the exhibitor, and have steers certified into a specific breed prior to the shows begin.  Once certified as an Angus, or a Hereford, or any breed, that animal can be confidently entered into the Angus class or whatever at the majors without the risk of getting sifted.  I am sure animals that do not belong in a breed will get through, but at least everyone knows at the front end what they can show as.  It would also be best to only allow the DNA to test for only 1 breed, eliminating people fishing for a breed to show their steer in.  It also eliminates some of the "good ol' boy buddy situations" that sometimes occurs.

Most people that aren't from Texas do not realize, but at Ft. Worth, if you enter your steer in a specific breed, and they do not classify, then that animal is thrown out of the whole show.  It can not be shown in the AOB division.  That kid just spent and entire year of work, and a $1000 or so to bring a calf to Ft. Worth, and not even get a chance to show at all.  On top of that, they are forced to stay at the show the whole week, the calf is not released until most of the show is over.

Definitely room for improvement, but the breeds do give a lot more kids the opportunity to be successful.

 

[GONEWEST]

The thing to remember about the classification system is that it is meant to provide more opportunities for kids to win. It's  purpose is not to arrange classes made up of the same breed of cattle. If you look at it with those two fact's it's easy to see that the system is a good one. The thing that's hard for many to understand is that it's not about breaking the classes up into actual breeds.

For me, the fix for classing out of cattle that are truly purebreds isn't that hard. The breed associations need to have a side show. I am sure that the Angus and Hereford associations in Texas are big enough to be able to raise enough money so that the champion and reserve champion steers would be meaningful. Steers with registration papers could show there. We do that here and it's worked great. Maybe you could DNA the champions to their papers if you're worried about someone just putting angus papers on a Heat Wave.

As far as Texas goes, I'm, all for it. If they actually do secede I'll move there. But as far as steer shows go, I'd say that any county fair official in appalachia who has as many as 3 steers total at the fair that actually have HAIR on them could teach most of Texas a little about running a steer show. Just sayin'..............................

 

[carl s.]

How'd I guess when I left on vacation that I'd come back and Show Heifer would be telling somebody else what they are doing wrong?

Gonewest, hair?  Really?  You just had to go there didn't you. 

 

[yuppiecowboy]

DNA? How does that prove that anything more than the parentage of the sample donor? Ok, so you have a DNA report that a sample submitted is within 99.99% likely to be fullblood Belted Brahmalo. Prove to me the animal you are holding is the donor of the sample, and therefore should be in the Belted Brahmalo class?

We could have another sample taken and verified by a committee of reliable witnesses, and wait 3 weeks for the confirmation to come back. Or maybe we could ask three people who know what a Belted Brahmalo is supposed to look like to give their opinion so we can go to the next one in line.

I would vote B.

If someone gets the gate at FT Worth, they have my utmost sympathy;however, I am guessing anyone who goes to FT Worth knows the game and the risks involved. If you dont like the rules, dont play the game.

 

[Freddy]

You have a mess.  You are teaching 8 year old an up 4-Hers how to lie and cheat with the best, under the
under the 4-H  banner ..    Your one concern is how much money those kids are making for you with  their calves ..
An as far as our right to be interested ,some of you are using our calves in this mess...An I would also like to get a hold of my Angus director and see how much Angus money is used in these shows  under these conditions ...Why can't the parents of these cattle be DNA'D to be registered, an stop this business of raising cattle to cheat with ...AND most of all for the sake of the good kids of Texas ...

 

[yuppiecowboy]

IBID, your Honor.

 

[carl s.]

Freddy, are your complaints about the Texas steer shows or Certified Angus Beef because pretty much everything you posted applies to both.

Well, except for the whole Angus money thing.  The Angus association puts a TON of money into CAB.

 

[R1Livestock]

Sometimes too many rules get in the way of what is supposed to be happening.  Learning and teaching about quality cattle, hard work, and the trials and tribulations of life is the end goal of these projects.  Have you ever noticed part of life is all of the hoops you have to jump through?  It is not cheating, as some have said, because there is no rule against trying to class that 17-way cross as an angus.  You have free-shot at it if you want to, you just know that you might not make it.  We're not teaching the youth to cheat; we're teaching them to be SMART, JUDICIOUS, and make the best of the resources they have.  There are complete verification systems in the livestock industry that can work (ever tried to show a purebred barrow up North?), but so much money and hassle is created there that the whole point of the game can be lost. 

 

[JSchroeder]

You are teaching 8 year old an up 4-Hers how to lie and cheat with the best, under the under the 4-H  banner

I'll mail you a check for $1,000 if you can find a rule in either the San Antonio or Houston premium books that makes running a crossbred, Angus appearing calf in the Angus class cheating.

 

[shortyjock89]

You are teaching 8 year old an up 4-Hers how to lie and cheat with the best, under the under the 4-H  banner

I'll mail you a check for $1,000 if you can find a rule in either the San Antonio or Houston premium books that makes running a crossbred, Angus appearing calf in the Angus class cheating.

Will you mail me that check if I try real hard? (lol)

 

[chambero]

I guess I'll go ahead and add my two cents.

Jeff, I, and others on this board that seem "jaded" are that way because we've been showing down here for a long time (myself going back to the mid 80s).  Texas has tried everything - usually we were so cutting age on it that its old news to us (the whole blood testing thing).  As far as DNA testing goes, how many discussions have we had on here about false negatives/positives from the testing labs? 

The current Texas steer classification system was developed by the show managers, ag teachers, and county agents.  Same crew that came up with the whole slick shearing thing.  Both were developed to try and combat the "steer jocks".  As far as classification goes, sifters are nominated by ag teachers, county agents, and breed associations.  Sifting decisions aren't overtly political, but as with any committee, one strong personality can influence a lot.  Even though they are dropping buttons or beans in a blind vote, the other sifters can tell when one another are really giving a certain calf the "evil eye".  A few thoughts:

1.  As much as I hate having a calf sifted, do you really think you can do a better job picking a 100% angus than what the sifters do.  Personally, I think anyone that says they could are pretty much talking out their ***.  It isn't easy to decide which polled, solid black, medium muscled and boned calves are Angus and which ones ain't.  There are precious few folks involved in breeding black show steers in Texas who haven't sold a crossbred calf to someone that then ran them Angus.  We don't open our mouths about it for fear of running off customers, so we need to shut up about the sifters.  Remember the old "cast the first stone" rule.

2.  There are no innocent parties to the skepticism that has developed on the part of sifters.  Most of the sifted calves are fairly sorry exotics whose owners are typically the "half-interested, didn't feed or work with their calf much" kid who knows their calf isn't good enough to place in the crossbred classes - so they know they don't have anything to lose by trying.  I got more than irritated at a kid from our county who tried to run the most Chi looking calf as an Angus at San Antonio.  I tried to take the high road and explain why they shouldn't and they basically laughed at me.  This type of kid/calf combo is compounded on the other extreme by the overt advertisement of winners from crossbred bulls. 

3.  The best step to probably fixing this is to get off our collective "high horses" about pretending they need to be 100% Angus.  The Hereford and Shorthorn folks did and their sifts aren't nearly as vicious as the Angus and Red Angus.  Real good Angus and Red Angus calves can run with these crosses that are winning.  Judges are backing off of the extreme muscling in a hurry anyway.  If your calf is balanced, can move, and is deep bodies you are going to be fine.

4.  Another realistic option would involve education of sifters.  Get the breed associations involved and get a formal pool of sifters nominated, and then get these guys out to see some real world Angus and Red Angus cattle.  That may sound stupid, but I'll bet we'd surprised at how many cattle these guys really look at.  I bet it ain't many.  Heck, put on a workshop of DNA verified cattle and some crosses and open their eyes as to what's real and what ain't.  But that would require money from someone besides an exhibitor.

5.  There is no real reason to be scared of buying a good, "real" Angus or Red Angus steer.  If you have a good one, you could find a home for it if you tried hard enough.  Not everyone is scared of showing them. 

 

[RAShower]

This topic discussion sounds like something you would find on Breeders World.