at the end of the rope

[Telos]

When families get involved with these projects they put "faith" in people and never realize all the multitude of issues that might go wrong. 90 plus % of families who get involved in club calf projects are not experts and probably never will be.

What is a reputable breeder? Supposedly this was a reputable breeder.

It's not complicated and there are no excuses. Like so many, this family got taken advantage of. Period.

Seller should be liable and somehow make good.

Actions like this are bad for the sport and bad for everyones bottom line who mess with this crazy club calf business.

 

[Tallcool1]

Just give the seller a call, and tell them what the deal is.  I agree with others on the thread......the seller will most likely take care of you in some way, shape, or form.

The other thing that I want to be sure to point out is that IF in fact the seller is nationally know, then you are NOT going to be the first customer that has called them with this problem.  As others have said, some of them just have a loose screw or do not adapt to their new environment.

As far as the seller knowing or not knowing, this is a tough thing.  You are dealing with a nationally known trader or producer, so they handle tremendous numbers.  The people that work at these places are VERY good at handling calves...they are professionals.  They may look at a steer and think that he is a little high headed, but never see any signs of danger.  They do this all day every day, and they just know how to handle them.

Whatever you do, don't give up. We had a nasty one last year, great steer that was worked with constantly for 6 months.  He just always had a little "edge" to him...like he could go off any second.  Well, he did go off at the State Fair, hurt a couple people, and it was just not a good deal. 
My son was not real sure that he was too excited about showing again.  He crawled back up on the horse, did it again this year, and made the Final Drive at the same show that we had such a horrible experience. 

I showed when I was growing up.  I never got to stand in front of the backdrop, but I enjoyed it and learned a lot. 

1)  Believe......believe in yourself.  Believe it can happen.  Believe that all of that hard work will pay off.  Believe in miracles.  Believe that you actually CAN outwork them...even if you can't outspend them.  Just believe...the day will come in your life when you will be the ONLY one that believes, and that is all that you need. 

2)  Never give up. 

You are not wrong wanting your daughter to believe that she can do this on a budget...you didn't crush her or damage her for life.  You got a mean calf.  You're a great mother for being on the road with her for 2 days to go look at this steer. 

Just call the producer.

And THIS is exactly the reason you SHOULD give up on the calf. I don't care how good the calf is, it is NOT worth hurting you, your daughter OR any INNOCENT bystander.  ESPECIALLY if the injured can "prove" the calf was unsafe before it was put out to public.
If I was injured, or one of my family members was injured by a calf that was KNOWN to be have an "edge", or by a breeder that has a history of wild cattle, I would be ticked off to the point of calling a lawyer. And trust me, I am NOT one to call a lawyer, but in such a case of negligence, someone would have to be held responsible.

I agree...give up on the calf, NOT the whole hobby of Showing Cattle.

 

[paj315]

Had the same problem with a heifer we bought about 10 years ago. Went to look at her she was fine, got her home she was fine , but the more we worked her the worse she got. In the barn and going back and forth to the wash room she was fine but the minute you took her out the barn door her head went down and off she went. Tried everything from a extra long rope tied to a post, two people on the end of the lead, doped her up, nothing worked except a nose snap and even after a while that quit working. Called the breeder who was a local guy and he would do nothing. In fact it took over a year to get her registration papers and when they came he had everything wrong . In the end we gave up and turned her out to be a cow. Just wasnt worth the hassle and risk. Her first calf was a giant and was born dead and had to be pulled then after pulling the calf the cow got paralyzed and we had to put her down. Needless to say we never bought anything from that breeder again.

 

[frostback]

After reading some of the responses on this thread it makes me not want to sell calves. It is quit amazing how some never seem to want to take responsibility for their actions. It must just be the breeders fault, not what they have or not done.

 

[Tallcool1]

After reading some of the responses on this thread it makes me not want to sell calves. It is quit amazing how some never seem to want to take responsibility for their actions. It must just be the breeders fault, not what they have or not done.

Apparently you have never had one that you just couldn't manage?  You can just break 'em all?

There are some fairly experienced members sharing real life experiences on this thread. The woman that started the thread comes from generations of cattle showing. Chambero...30 years. My kids are 3rd generation.

Tell us ALL where we went wrong...I will listen. I'm always looking for ways to help my family be better at this. 

I don't know that there has to be "fault"...unless the seller knew. Otherwise I believe that it is a fact of showing cattle. Some calves just don't want to give in. They don't want to be show cattle and will hurt someone to prove their point.

 

[Okotoks]

After reading some of the responses on this thread it makes me not want to sell calves. It is quit amazing how some never seem to want to take responsibility for their actions. It must just be the breeders fault, not what they have or not done.

Apparently you have never had one that you just couldn't manage?  You can just break 'em all?

There are some fairly experienced members sharing real life experiences on this thread. The woman that started the thread comes from generations of cattle showing. Chambero...30 years. My kids are 3rd generation.

Tell us ALL where we went wrong...I will listen. I'm always looking for ways to help my family be better at this. 

I don't know that there has to be "fault"...unless the seller knew. Otherwise I believe that it is a fact of showing cattle. Some calves just don't want to give in. They don't want to be show cattle and will hurt someone to prove their point.

I think that is Frostback's point, there doesn't have to be a fault unless the seller knew. Not every project we take on will end in success.
Some animals change disposition when put in different situations. I have seen a quiet animal load on a trailer act like a crazy thing when being unloaded.A few times at our 4H club a calf that was manageable at Achievement day went nuts when arriving at the large interclub show in Calgary. It's unfortunate a large amount was spent on the steer and I can understand the disappointment but hopefully quitting altogether is not the lesson that will be learned.

 

[aj]

Don't buy cattle from cattle traders......NEVER buy breeding cattle from club calf people. They don't have breed loyalty......they want to make a fast buck. Strictly my opinion.

 

[ejoe326]

aj not quite an accurate statement.

We have no "breed loyalty" and we absolutely will stand behind what we sell.  Club calves, heifers, cows, and bulls. 

Absolutes aside from death and taxes aren't all that beneficial to anyone.

 

[vc]

Over the years I have seen or bought all of them, ones who start out fine and go south, the calves who you know will be a project from the very beginning but turn out fine, puppy dogs that never give you problems and one I just should have never bought. (My first steer)
In your case I would CALL the breeder; to me a text is like an update, the breeder probably did not get the impression that you were having a problem just letting him know how things were going. Call them explain the situation, and see what they will do.

Here are some thoughts I have about selecting cattle when it comes to their behavior.

If they run about 10 yards from you turn with a defiant look head and tail up and blowing smoke, I do not care how cool they look, cross them off your list period. A bruised chest broken hand and feeding them with a bucket in one hand a 2*4 in the other is not the way to go.

If they run away but stay with other calves, that is normal, if they always seem to be the first calf to scatter and run twice as fast and twice as far away from you as the other calves, probably going to be an issue. You can settle some of them but it can take twice as long and depending on your fencing at home can be a real problem up to that point, if they ever settle (The Commercial Angus guy we got some of our calves from calls these “Orangutans”) The heifers like this leave.

Most calves will settle down more and more just as you walk through the pens and look at them, shoot at some of the sales they have been walked through so many times they just start standing or laying there as you go through, these calves are a better choice than the one that is still running from end to end at the end of the day.

When selecting calves I think behavior is as important as soundness, if either go south, so does the project.

I hope the breeder makes things right for you.

 

[frostback]

After reading some of the responses on this thread it makes me not want to sell calves. It is quit amazing how some never seem to want to take responsibility for their actions. It must just be the breeders fault, not what they have or not done.

Apparently you have never had one that you just couldn't manage?  You can just break 'em all?

There are some fairly experienced members sharing real life experiences on this thread. The woman that started the thread comes from generations of cattle showing. Chambero...30 years. My kids are 3rd generation.

Tell us ALL where we went wrong...I will listen. I'm always looking for ways to help my family be better at this. 

I don't know that there has to be "fault"...unless the seller knew. Otherwise I believe that it is a fact of showing cattle. Some calves just don't want to give in. They don't want to be show cattle and will hurt someone to prove their point.

I think that is Frostback's point, there doesn't have to be a fault unless the seller knew. Not every project we take on will end in success.
Some animals change disposition when put in different situations. I have seen a quiet animal load on a trailer act like a crazy thing when being unloaded.A few times at our 4H club a calf that was manageable at Achievement day went nuts when arriving at the large interclub show in Calgary. It's unfortunate a large amount was spent on the steer and I can understand the disappointment but hopefully quitting altogether is not the lesson that will be learned.

That is my point and another one is that some people are choosing their calves and then complaining about the breeder. Unless you send money and tell someone to send me a calf, it was their choice. Stand behind your decision. She went and looked at the calf, no one sent it to her. How on earth is the breeder supposed to know how a calf will act at a new location. If there were not red flags when the calf is at home. If there was then yes shame of the breeder, funny how everything wrong is always someone's else fault, some have no accountability. 
Our criteria for choosing what we sell is if its not something our kids would show or could show it doesn't sell. My 12 year old helps with the calves so if I don't feel comfortable with him around them they don't sell.

 

[husker1]

There's the old business adage....The customer is always right. 

I know it's sometimes hard to swallow this in the any business, but if you don't take care of your customer, they won't be back.  And they will tell plenty of others about their problems.  There are just so many other choices out there offering similar products.  I realize that there are exceptions to every rule, but in this case, the customer has a very legitimate complaint.

We've had to refund money on a couple different ocassions though the years that just didn't seem right at the time.  However, one of those customers, in particular, has turned out to be one of our best repeat buyers and continues to bring new business to every sale.  Would not have happened if we didn't go above and beyond the call with his problem.

I realized a few years ago that there is so much more to this business than money.  If you are in it soley for the money, that is the wrong reason!  Treat your customers the way you wish to be treated and you will be successful. 

 

[bellaangus]

To: at the end of the rope

It sounds like we are having similar experiences with our kids' steer projects. Our daughter isn't giving up though. She works him still and is stubborn about his behaviour. He gets tied up each time he acts out. We are fortunate to have a 6 mo. heifer that looks pretty good, so she's starting to work her. We have talked to our breeder/seller with nothing productive coming out of it. We live in a small town and bought it from a local breeder/seller that we know and has been part of our FFA club. That makes this even harder.

Our steer goes along and then suddenly wigs out, has thrown one of our Ag teachers, plowed through the other, broken through pipe fencing just because he saw my husband walk by, freaks out loading into our trailer - these are just some examples. We have tried Calf Calm and thiamine to no effect. We are now missing the State Fair because we will not put anyone in danger with this steer. It has been suggested that maybe he would benefit from Thorazine because obviously the breeding to produce this steer has caused something to go wrong mentally. Has this been anything you considered? Have you tried anything? We haven't tried melatonin but that's about it. I know there's a can of worms by saying anything about this, but it is a psychiatric medication. Wouldn't this be a good use for it? If it worked at home, then it protects everyone and the project isn't lost.

 

[bellaangus]

@ husker1

Amen!  <beer>

Very well said. We are in customer services businesses too and have found this to be true. Thank you for taking the time to remind us all of this as customers/buyers and sellers/breeders.

One of our businesses (separate from our daughter showing) is that we buy, breed, and sell angus. We don't breed for show but for production. I don't understand why the two (show and production) are so far apart, but that's another topic! 

 

[DL]

We have tried Calf Calm and thiamine to no effect. We are now missing the State Fair because we will not put anyone in danger with this steer. It has been suggested that maybe he would benefit from Thorazine because obviously the breeding to produce this steer has caused something to go wrong mentally. Has this been anything you considered? Have you tried anything? We haven't tried melatonin but that's about it. I know there's a can of worms by saying anything about this, but it is a psychiatric medication. Wouldn't this be a good use for it? If it worked at home, then it protects everyone and the project isn't lost.

One of our businesses (separate from our daughter showing) is that we buy, breed, and sell angus. We don't breed for show but for production.

You say you breed for production . As a producer of beef you should be aware of the laws regarding ELDU (extra label drug use) and AMDUCA - if you don't shame on you - the laws are the same no matter if the bovine is a show animal, a cow or a feedlot steer

The use of thorazine in cattle is illegal

If you want to "protect everyone" leave the crazy ones at home

 

[BTDT]

After reading some of the responses on this thread it makes me not want to sell calves. It is quit amazing how some never seem to want to take responsibility for their actions. It must just be the breeders fault, not what they have or not done.

Apparently you have never had one that you just couldn't manage?  You can just break 'em all?

There are some fairly experienced members sharing real life experiences on this thread. The woman that started the thread comes from generations of cattle showing. Chambero...30 years. My kids are 3rd generation.

Tell us ALL where we went wrong...I will listen. I'm always looking for ways to help my family be better at this. 

I don't know that there has to be "fault"...unless the seller knew. Otherwise I believe that it is a fact of showing cattle. Some calves just don't want to give in. They don't want to be show cattle and will hurt someone to prove their point.

I think that is Frostback's point, there doesn't have to be a fault unless the seller knew. Not every project we take on will end in success.
Some animals change disposition when put in different situations. I have seen a quiet animal load on a trailer act like a crazy thing when being unloaded.A few times at our 4H club a calf that was manageable at Achievement day went nuts when arriving at the large interclub show in Calgary. It's unfortunate a large amount was spent on the steer and I can understand the disappointment but hopefully quitting altogether is not the lesson that will be learned.

That is my point and another one is that some people are choosing their calves and then complaining about the breeder. Unless you send money and tell someone to send me a calf, it was their choice. Stand behind your decision. She went and looked at the calf, no one sent it to her. How on earth is the breeder supposed to know how a calf will act at a new location. If there were not red flags when the calf is at home. If there was then yes shame of the breeder, funny how everything wrong is always someone's else fault, some have no accountability. 
Our criteria for choosing what we sell is if its not something our kids would show or could show it doesn't sell. My 12 year old helps with the calves so if I don't feel comfortable with him around them they don't sell.

I have looked at livestock that act perfectly fine in the pasture or in the sale ring, only to get them home and have them blow up. I send in blood (I HATE unknowns) and so far, 95% of the time, they have had drug residue in them. So, just because they act calm at the sellers home does not relieve them of the "not knowing" responsibility. They could have very well known and drugged the calf for all we know.

I have had calves I couldn't train.  Some has been my "fault", some hasn't been my "fault". Some I have gotten money back from, some I haven't. But, I will say this, ANY time I sell an animal I make sure it is a good match for the new home. If I do not feel the animal is a good fit, I do not sell it to that family. I NEVER sell an animal I feel is wild or unsafe. NEVER. I do not tranq animals either. As DL has mentioned, drug residue in food producing animals is becoming a HUGE issue, both because of the industry and of the consumer.

While we are having a good discussion, it doesn't solve the issue that 4-H Mom, has a discouraged daughter with no calf and no money. It is a black eye to the industry as a whole. Since 4-H Mom has not followed up in the discussion, I can only guess that she is shaking her head, trying to decide whether to trust anyone in the industry again or not. And to that I would say "fair enough".

 

[vc]

I went back and read through the post again, it states that she sent a "text" to the breeder one month into this, I really think a phone call would get allot more results, one text, over a month ago, as the breeder you probably are assuming every thing is good now.
Call them, talk to them, explain the situation, I am sure you will get better results than with a text.

I do not know who the breeder is but if they sell 40 to 50 calves or more I wounder how many text they may get a day, every day.

 

[frostback]

]

.
[/quote]

I have looked at livestock that act perfectly fine in the pasture or in the sale ring, only to get them home and have them blow up. I send in blood (I HATE unknowns) and so far, 95% of the time, they have had drug residue in them. So, just because they act calm at the sellers home does not relieve them of the "not knowing" responsibility. They could have very well known and drugged the calf for all we know.

[/quote]

Where do you send in blood for this test and how much does it cost?

 

[brianp]

you don't need to travel halfway across the states to buy good cattle.  Buy from people you can build a relationship with

 

[knabe]

Can't imagine cattle today being worse than the height of the chi days.

 

[cowman 52]

Have read through this with some curiosity as to where it would lead. Why in the Sam hill do we buy critters sight unseen from B F E and when we get them home and something goes haywire, we wonder where the blame goes?
You don't put all your eggs in one basket, and a pretty big basket i imagine. Spend some time behind a windshield, see some calves, deal with people you know or at the least know someone who has had dealings with them before and don't ever buy  one on the say so of such and such said there was a good one here or there. You have become the victim of just that, and now you are behind on time and short a cow. 2 weeks 5 months ago looks like time well spent right now, don't it?

This has been happening since ugh first showed his dinosaur, and he was mad as heck at the guy he got him from, the sob tried to eat him.