Breeding Heifers NEED SOME HELP

[TJ]

 TJ, Like I said in my earlier post,  I believe there is a definate fit in the commercial industry for Lowlines.  I just can't seem to justify using them in a clubby herd.  So if the only bulls I can use are the select few that you mentioned,  I don't see how I could justify it for use in a club calf herd.   So you reccomend for the most part a very select few clubby bulls or else breed to a half blood that will give me a halfblood that I need to breed to a halfblood and now I am searching for new clients to sell all my halfbood lowlines to.  Like you said there is a market for them, but not locally.   Not saying it won't work,  for the most part I raise cattle to build a herd that my kids can show our calves out of.  If there were local shows for 1/2 bloods it might make me think.  I don't think Dani will allow me to haul the kids to Denver so we can show their lowlinea.

Tony

There is a JR Lowline Show in North Platte, Nebraska & has been for several years.  It's only 1 show, but there is one & you can show 1/2 bloods at that show.  There are 19 Lowline members or junior members in Nebraska & I've had Lowline inquiries from Nebraska who were not Lowline members.   I just don't think that you'd have too much trouble selling some "good ones" although it would require some additional marketing, that is correct.  With that said, if you are convinced that 1/2 bloods wont work for you or your program, don't use them.  If something is currently working for you, stick with it!   Before this thread got sidetracked, I was simply trying to talk somebody out of using Jersey's, I wasn't trying to get everyone to breed everything to Lowline Angus... not even close.   But, I still do think that they will show... in steer shows & in AOB.  And there are 58 breeders in TX & a Lowline show in TX, so they should not be that hard to market (I've sold Lowlines to TX & had a slew of inquiries from that state), especially if they are any good at all.                   

RE calving... I always lean toward the side of caution, especially when giving advice.  With that said, I do think that as long as a bull isn't a "known hard calver" that you could probably use it on a 1/2 blood Lowline "cow".  Seriously, if a fullblood Lowline cow can handle DR Who & Charolais sired calves then a 1/2 blood cow surely could handle a lot of bulls!  I don't know that Hotmail is exactly calving ease or even moderate calving ease, yet Jerry Adamson used him on at least one 1/2 Lowline.  I can tell you that Sunseeker & Get Serious on a Lowline donor, produced 60ish lb. male calves out of full sized recips, so I think those 2 bulls could be used on 1/2 bloods with no problems.  I wouldn't get too crazy, but after they've had a calf or 2, I think you could get pretty adventurous with 1/2 Lowline females.  How adventurous depends on the female... some 1/2 blood cows, like that Lowline X Angus that I posted a picture of, could probably be bred to Heatwave.      But, I wouldn't use something like Heatwave on a 2,000 lb. cow, so I most certainly don't want to go around promoting that idea on 1/2 Lowline, even though I think it "could' work 95% of the time.       

 

[savaged]

The American Lowline Registry, if that is the breed's official website, sure doesn't help it's case any relative to this discussion.  The "photos" section makes them look like miniature cattle.   They need to showcase some of the show calf half-bloods that have been mentioned here.

 

[TJ]

The American Lowline Registry, if that is the breed's official website, sure doesn't help it's case any relative to this discussion.  The "photos" section makes them look like miniature cattle.   They need to showcase some of the show calf half-bloods that have been mentioned here.

I agree!  The ALR site is a joke.  That photo section probably hasn't been updated in 5 years!  The whole site is "supposedly" going to be redesigned (I know that some want to do it), but I'm not sure when it will be "allowed".  However, even when it is redesigned, there are some people who could care less about "percentage Lowline anything", so it will be interesting to see what happens when & if the site is redesigned. 

Right now, some people are actually taking a stand against the registration of 1/4 & 3/8 Lowlines!  It's the craziest thing that I've ever heard of & it will really hinder our breed!!  I've talked to 2 of them on the phone & told them both that I couldn't believe their opposition or even their reasoning why... and I like both of them!   All we have to do is vote not to allow those low percentages to show in our breed shows against the 1/2's & higher & everybody should be happy.  I don't know what's going to happen, but most people that I know are actually either neutral or they are in favor of registering low percentages.  Anyway, I say all that just so that you realize that not every Lowline breeder has the same mindset & some of them think that the breed should only be "minis" & "pasture pets".  Why they can't be that & commercially acceptable too, depending upon what individual breeders want to do, is way beyond me!!  Unfortunately, about as many people listen to me in the ALR as I have listening to me on Steer Planet!      

BTW, attached is a 1/2 blood cow with a 5-6 month old 3/4 blood calf.    You can see exactly how "miniature" the cow isn't, using people as a reference.  That cow isn't as nearly as big as some 1/2 blood cows & she isn't exactly a belt buckle cow.   The woman behind the cow is probably around 5'4... my wife (who is not in the picture) is 5'2 & that woman is taller than my wife. 

 

[TJ]

What would a calf buyer say if he came to look and you told him your hundred head were out of low lines. Or how would they sell on superior.

That's a great point and not totally fair but reality!

RSC

Never sold a Lowline on superior, but I did sell one 1/2 Lowline steer in a feeder sale a couple years ago...  grossed me just under $750... pretty sure that is was $749 something.  It got fed soy hulls for maybe a month or 6 weeks... I can't remember exactly, but the calf didn't eat very much because I weaned it on grass (was going to grass finish it).  My net off that calf was pretty incredible considering that it was sold in a feeder sale & my feed costs were small.   Lowline Angus are 100% Angus... probably more pure than most Angus, so it naturally looked just like a Angus X steer, which it was... and that is reality!   And the thing is, that calf was out of my 1st Lowline bull who isn't nearly as big as Doc Holliday (2-3 inches shorter & 250+ lbs. lighter).   

 

[Throttle]

Speaking of neck extension, here is the Res. Grand Champion Shorthorn Plus at Louisville.  I wish that I had ordered a show picture of my Lowline X Shorthorn to show you, so that you could carefully compare the 2 side by side, like I did.   Just being as honest as I can be, she doesn't have a bit more neck extension than my Lowline X Shorthorn heifer.  Actually, their front end's look virtually identical.  And this is a Res. Champ Shorthorn Plus at one of the biggest shows in the US.  She's taller than my heifer & has more roaning, but otherwise, just not a whole lot of difference, IMHO.  And I am just being as honest as I can be.  Maybe I can get a pic from Linde's & post them side by side.     

I saw this Shorty Plus heifer up close and personal at NAILE and she was a flat good one. Awesome structure, big centered, wide made, feminine in the right places, would've won if she had the right prefix. I also saw some of the Lowlines moving in as we were heading out. The pictures might compare favorably, but I cannot imagine that any judge on earth would say that they did if standing side by side in the ring. Not that there isn't a great use and place and market for Lowlines, and not meant to offend anyone, but I just don't think they are quite ready to run with the big leagues of the crossbreds, like this very good Shorthorn Plus female, regardless of how similar they may look in a picture. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the breed is relatively young when compared to the biggies, and the crossbreeding and half blood registry seems to be just starting, so with some time, they will probably stand right beside those Shorty Pluses, but not this year and probably not the next several. My 2 cents  <cowboy>

 

[CAB]

To me what it boils down to is that TJ & Dori are proud of their cattle and rightfully so. We all should be and are. We are striving to produce the kind of cattle that we personally like and have a place in the market. As long as the Lowline breeders can sell their cattle and make them work who are we to judge. If you would have told me 15/20 years ago that Jerry Adamson & Neil Effertz would be breeding and pulling even Lowline cross cattle, I would have said never in a million years. It will be fun to watch the breed evolve. My guess is they'll have their ups and downs. Brent

 

[RSC]

To me what it boils down to is that TJ & Dori are proud of their cattle and rightfully so. We all should be and are. We are striving to produce the kind of cattle that we personally like and have a place in the market. As long as the Lowline breeders can sell their cattle and make them work who are we to judge. If you would have told me 15/20 years ago that Jerry Adamson & Neil Effertz would be breeding and pulling even Lowline cross cattle, I would have said never in a million years. It will be fun to watch the breed evolve. My guess is they'll have their ups and downs. Brent

  I totally agree with this post Brent.  I think having reputable breeders like these two helps erase some of the Stigma that has been out there when Lowlines first started gaining popularity.  I am all for Dori and TJ being proud of their cattle and feel there is a need for them in the commercial industry.  Just not sure right now if the fit my needs but it's steel nice to here the attributes of the breed.  I do know people that are searching for the type of cattle that will finish on grass and Lowlines sure could fit there.

Tony

 

[TJ]

Speaking of neck extension, here is the Res. Grand Champion Shorthorn Plus at Louisville.  I wish that I had ordered a show picture of my Lowline X Shorthorn to show you, so that you could carefully compare the 2 side by side, like I did.   Just being as honest as I can be, she doesn't have a bit more neck extension than my Lowline X Shorthorn heifer.  Actually, their front end's look virtually identical.  And this is a Res. Champ Shorthorn Plus at one of the biggest shows in the US.  She's taller than my heifer & has more roaning, but otherwise, just not a whole lot of difference, IMHO.  And I am just being as honest as I can be.  Maybe I can get a pic from Linde's & post them side by side.     

I saw this Shorty Plus heifer up close and personal at NAILE and she was a flat good one. Awesome structure, big centered, wide made, feminine in the right places, would've won if she had the right prefix. I also saw some of the Lowlines moving in as we were heading out. The pictures might compare favorably, but I cannot imagine that any judge on earth would say that they did if standing side by side in the ring. Not that there isn't a great use and place and market for Lowlines, and not meant to offend anyone, but I just don't think they are quite ready to run with the big leagues of the crossbreds, like this very good Shorthorn Plus female, regardless of how similar they may look in a picture. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the breed is relatively young when compared to the biggies, and the crossbreeding and half blood registry seems to be just starting, so with some time, they will probably stand right beside those Shorty Pluses, but not this year and probably not the next several. My 2 cents 

I think that you totally misunderstood the intention of my post...  I was referring  specifically to neck extension & I only pointed out that the 2 looked comparable.  That's not even close to saying that I would beat her.  And why would I?  My Lowline X Shorthorn heifer didn't even win Grand or Reserve in the Percentage Lowline Show!!  But, that doesn't mean that she isn't very good.   

With that said, if you saw "some" of the Lowlines moving in while you were moving out, I'm guessing that you didn't see my Lowline X Shorthorn heifer because we showed up late, due to my being sick... we arrived at dark & tied out immediately.   I was traveling with a few others, so they were late arriving too, which means... you likely didn't see the Grand Percentage Cow/Calf Pair, the Res. Grand Champion Percentage Female, the Res Grand Champion Junior Owned Percentage Female, a division winning percentage bull, a division winning percentage female, 3 Reserve division Percentage females & 1 class winning Percentage bull.   That's 10 of the "better end" percentage bloods in that SMALL show.   2 of the percentage bloods that you MIGHT have seen, showed up on Tuesday "unclipped"!!  And you probably saw a group of cattle that had just been hauled all the way from North Dakota (24 hour trip, I think I was told that).   Two or 3 other breeders that arrived on Tuesday only had fullbloods.   Anyway, you most likely missed the bulk of the better end percentage animals & you didn't see some of the others in their best light... not making excuses... just stating the facts.   You also missed the Grand Fullblood Pair & the Res Grand Champ Fullblood Female, etc. 

I'm not offended at all... you are entitled to your opinion.  I agree that Lowlines haven't been around as long, etc. & that's a valid point for sure.  And again, I never once said that my heifer would beat that heifer... my heifer didn't even win Grand or Reserve in the Percentage Lowline Show, so I am certainly not going to guarantee any victories.   

 

[PaddyO]

Ali is the man. However, you better have some $$$ when you look 4 semen.... Rocky Balboa or Tyson..

 

[TJ]

To me what it boils down to is that TJ & Dori are proud of their cattle and rightfully so. We all should be and are. We are striving to produce the kind of cattle that we personally like and have a place in the market. As long as the Lowline breeders can sell their cattle and make them work who are we to judge. If you would have told me 15/20 years ago that Jerry Adamson & Neil Effertz would be breeding and pulling even Lowline cross cattle, I would have said never in a million years. It will be fun to watch the breed evolve. My guess is they'll have their ups and downs. Brent

If you would have told ME 12 years ago that I would be breeding Lowline cattle or crosses.... I would have said "never in a million years" too!  I laughed at the Denver display in 1996 or 1997.  A guy helping us told me about the display & that he could see some real positives in them.  After I looked at them, I told him that he was nuts!  So, I totally understand where all the skepticism on this board comes from.  I was one of the BIGGEST skeptics myself.  I grew up with Chi's! 
     
Brent, as much as I would love for it to be all ups , I agree with you. 

 

[farwest]

Lautner said ali's clone will be available for 30 bucks. Proven. That's what this person is wanting. Great value. Maybe this could be the last word on a post that has strayed too far

 

[TJ]

Lautner said ali's clone will be available for 30 bucks. Proven. That's what this person is wanting. Great value. Maybe this could be the last word on a post that has strayed too far

Maybe not...     From what I understand from the OP, is that calving ease is their priority #1 for calf #1.  I will guarantee that Doc Holliday or Fitz will sire much lighter calves than Ali.  I doubt that anybody on this board would attempt to even dispute that!  They want extremely ease calving.  That may not be what you want or 2 dozen others or more want, but that is what the OP wants.

I'll give you that Ali has worked on a lot of heifers, but what about the stories told about Ali siring 120+ lb?    I'll guarantee you that is not what the original poster wants to see happen.  I have nothing against Ali, but the original poster doesn't want to take a chance with their heifers & somebody was worried enough to recommend using a Jersey.  Most Jersey's don't ever sire a 120 lb. calf... most Jersey's don't even sire a 70 lb. calf.  If it hadn't been posted right here on Steer Planet by one of our most trusted posters that "Ali's birth weights are all over the board", your post may have indeed been the last post.       

 

[farwest]

Well I would say your going up against a lot of people who believe Ali is proven.  Back to the original post.  I just think it was wrong of you to over promote your bull wnen the jersey would have been fine for calving ease. How do you know they might have not wanted to milk it.  That may be more value to them than a minnature breed

 

[OH Breeder]

Well I would say your going up against a lot of people who believe Ali is proven.  Back to the original post.  I just think it was wrong of you to over promote your bull wnen the jersey would have been fine for calving ease. How do you know they might have not wanted to milk it.  That may be more value to them than a minnature breed

Stir stir stir.......

 

[kfacres]

exactly and they might be trying to produce modern day Angus's

 

[TJ]

Well I would say your going up against a lot of people who believe Ali is proven.  Back to the original post.  I just think it was wrong of you to over promote your bull wnen the jersey would have been fine for calving ease. How do you know they might have not wanted to milk it.  That may be more value to them than a minnature breed

Milk it?  LOL!!  When did they ever mention 1 word about milk?  I can't say that they weren't wanting "to milk it", but they never mentioned milk as a priority.  Did they?  However, they did mention calving ease as a THE priority.   

Since you think it's wrong for me to promote my bull (and Dori's bull... lets not leave that out) over a Jersey, why are you promoting the type of cattle that you raise & believe in?  Why aren't YOU wrong, if I am wrong? 

If you think they are a mini breed, more power to you.... but, that doesn't change the fact that they have produced 1,300 - 1,400 lb. 1/2 blood cows & the bulls that did that aren't as big as Doc Holliday.   

Again, the OP is after calving ease.  They didn't even mention "more value"... those are your priorities that you want them to have.  However, since we are talking value, I bet they can market those Lowline X Maine calves for pretty decent $$, whether you think so or not.  And who knows, I might buy them!   

Go do a search of Steer Planet & you can read the post/s for yourself.  I'll give you a hint... the person who posted that Ali's birth weights are "all over the board", posted in this thread.  It wasn't me... it wasn't Dori... it wasn't Lazy G Lowlines... it was Olson Family Shorthorns.      They don't even raise Lowline & have never used one to my knowledge.  Anyway, the OP doesn't want birth weights that are "all over the board".     

 

[farwest]

Ok ok ok. Doc holiday and the lpwline breed for calving ease is the best thing since sliced bread. I give in. You win. LOL jeash

 

[kobo_ranch]

Gosh guys, had no idea I'd start such a stir with my original question! 
Yes I'm the original poster.  My good friend whos a steer jockey told us to breed them to a Jersey to be safe, and just thought that was the best thing to do.  Yes, my main concern is calving ease, not milking, although I love a good cow that gives lots of milk!
I want to THANK EVERYONE for your feedback, I think its wonderful TJ and Dori how you take such pride you your breed.  Our herd right now consists of clubby mommas Angus/Maine crosses and a few black baldy cows.  We have about 5 absoultely beautiful heifers we've been told are "awesome" by some of the club calf guys around here. (sired by Paddy Omalley--plus about 20 or so NICE steers)  So yes, my main concern is a live calf and a live momma cow.  Unfortunately I'm still confused.  Lowlines sound good and I might consider, I'd also if I was totally sure (which you never can be) of one of the clubby bulls suggested.  Thankfully we've still got a few months out to make up our minds!!

Now I just gotta think of another GOOD QUESTION . . . to get yall going again!!  LOL  THANKS GUYS!!  I mean it!! (clapping)

 

[BCCC]

Just saying I have had a 140lbs ALI heifer out of a two year old witch doctor x Irish Whiskey cow, And she wasn't ever feed throughout her pregnacy just out on pasture. I know not all of them are like that but some are. I wish you luck it can be hard deciding what to breed them to!!

 

[Jill]

Gosh guys, had no idea I'd start such a stir with my original question! 
Yes I'm the original poster.  My good friend whos a steer jockey told us to breed them to a Jersey to be safe, and just thought that was the best thing to do.  Yes, my main concern is calving ease, not milking, although I love a good cow that gives lots of milk!
I want to THANK EVERYONE for your feedback, I think its wonderful TJ and Dori how you take such pride you your breed.  Our herd right now consists of clubby mommas Angus/Maine crosses and a few black baldy cows.  We have about 5 absoultely beautiful heifers we've been told are "awesome" by some of the club calf guys around here. (sired by Paddy Omalley--plus about 20 or so NICE steers)  So yes, my main concern is a live calf and a live momma cow.  Unfortunately I'm still confused.  Lowlines sound good and I might consider, I'd also if I was totally sure (which you never can be) of one of the clubby bulls suggested.  Thankfully we've still got a few months out to make up our minds!!

Now I just gotta think of another GOOD QUESTION . . . to get yall going again!!  LOL  THANKS GUYS!!  I mean it!! (clapping)

Just so we are all clear, the bulls I suggested are not clubby bulls, they are calving ease purebred Maine bulls that I would breed a Paddy O Malley heifer to.