Bull Promotion- Controlled or UNcontrolled?

[ROAD WARRIOR]

Never forget that EPD's  have evolved from a selection tool into a marketing tool. If you can manipulate sire groups and contemporary groups youy can have marketable EPD's ( even if the cattle are terrible) RW

 

[Dusty]

Never forget that EPD's  have evolved from a selection tool into a marketing tool. If you can manipulate sire groups and contemporary groups youy can have marketable EPD's ( even if the cattle are terrible) RW

Don't forget when reporting data that the first liar doesn't stand a chance..

 

[knabe]

Never forget that EPD's  have evolved from a selection tool into a marketing tool. If you can manipulate sire groups and contemporary groups youy can have marketable EPD's ( even if the cattle are terrible) RW

Don't forget when reporting data that the first liar doesn't stand a chance..

that's awesome dusty.  perhaps for GB, a certain shorthorn sire comes to mind?

 

[justintime]

The clubbie part of the industry is not different than any other part of this industry ... or any other industry. By that I mean there are some very good honest, decent people in the clubbie industry, and there are some others that are not. That is no different than in the purebred or the commercial parts of this business. I happen to know many great people in all parts of the beef industry. I also know some others that have a reputation that proceeds them, and sometimes it is not good. You cannot say that all clubbie breeders are dishonest, just as you cannot say all animals from a particular bloodline are no good.

I find that the most critical people in this business are usually the ones who have never shown or promoted any critters, or they tried a few times and decided they couldn't compete. It seems these people should become consultants because they know all the answers and they know what is wrong with everyone else's cattle.

Presenting cattle at their best is nothing more than marketing at your best. We see this every day in every aspect of our lives. Department stores have show windows and shiny displays in their stores. Big companies spent multi millions in producing a 20 second ad for TV for a product that sells for $3.99. Promotion is a very important part of any business and it is also important in the  beef business. I have absolutely no problem with anyone who is willing to go the extra mile to make their cattle look better as long as it is done honestly. One good picture can make a person a pile of money. One bad picture can ruin a good bull or female. I have seen this in my own business many times. I probably sell over 90 % of my embryos to people who have never seen either the donor or the sire, in person. Most of these people see a picture on my website and if they like the picture, they may send an email asking for some prices. The cattle on the hill in Denver may not represent the real world, but it is still a very vital part of this business and I happen to think that the beef industry would be a much poorer industry without it.

If the shows have no use to the commercial side of the industry, then why is it that many of the best commercial bull sales, always seem to be using sons or grand sons of some great show champions. Pick up almost any Angus bull sale catalog and there will be many direct sons and grandsons of some bull that stood in a stall  at Denver, Louisville, or several other major shows. When these bulls were shown, there were probably people who said that these bulls had no realationship with the real world, but it sure seems surprising to me how many of these so called pampered cattle show up in some of the best commercial bulls in any breed.

I can understand fully the points that have been made about pictures and videos, especially the ones that don't do an animal justice. I am a very amateur photographer, and a day taking pictures is one of the most stressful days I have in my year. That is why I carry a digital camera in my truck at all times. Some of the best pictures I have ever taken have just happened. Digital cameras have been a great help. I remember taking three of four rolls of pictures and heading to town to get them developed only to find that I had one or two pictures on each roll that were good enough to use in a sale catalog. I probably should own a part of Kodak when I think of the amount of picture paper I wasted. A set of good photos in a sale catalog will probably make you more money than anything else you can do. A set of poor pictures will result in a small crowd, a bunch of left over sale day food, and your banker scratching his head wondering how much longer he should continue believing in you.

I saw the empty pens in the yards at Denver, and I was disappointed that was the case. I would have liked to have the opportunity to see more of the next generation of bulls, than I did see. I do not agree that if you have a good one that someone will find it. Some really great cattle never get seen simply because the owner had no idea how good some of his cattle are.

This industry is made up of a bunch of parts. All have a place. All are important. This business would be in a much better place if the people in each part were just a little more accepting of each other. Live and let live.

 

[Doc]

Never forget that EPD's  have evolved from a selection tool into a marketing tool. If you can manipulate sire groups and contemporary groups youy can have marketable EPD's ( even if the cattle are terrible) RW

Don't forget when reporting data that the first liar doesn't stand a chance..

that's awesome dusty.  perhaps for GB, a certain shorthorn sire comes to mind?

I don't know what you would be implying knabe, but there ought to be a "solution" to this problem somewhere.

 

[knabe]

i guess i should be dinged for that.

sorry.  i apologize.

 

[Doc]

i guess i should be dinged for that.

sorry.  i apologize.

I wasn't going to ding , I was going to applaud .

 

[jbw]

I will agree that the clubby industry is not always an accurate reflection on "real world" cattle, like having to assist alot of them,the huge bone and all the hair. I like my cows to "slick out" after calving and don't know what the benefit it has in our quest to raise a protien source in the food chain......but they sure are pretty with it! I enjoy messing around trying to raise one and believe that the clubby industry is like the NASCAR part of the auto industry. I also like the fact that I get to meet alot of great people, and most important alot of great kids who enjoy showing their projects, be it a local, district, state, or national level it is all very important. I like the fact that these kids have to learn that you get out of a project what you put into it and what brings me to my final point. The haired up, perfectly clipped, altered photo's, will give them and all of us a very good lesson. Research what you want and need, researh the people that you want to deal with, and make sound decisions from information that you have gathered. sorry if I bored anyone I'll get off my little soapbox ;D

 

[aj]

I'm not knocking the showring. However It seems a little goofy to knock someone about doctoring photos. Then you go out and lie about a birth date on your show calf(everybody does it) so its okay. Then you have a bull calf with a 122# bw....lets just call it 99#(everybody does it). Our goal is to raise a heatseeker son that looks like a purebred Shorthorn to raise steers for the Texas market. We have raised maine anjous that end up showing as Herfords,Shorthorns, and Angus. We raised chi's that looked like and showed as Angus. We put full grown calves in coolers. We grow hair on a calf to make him look thick then we can shape all of the holes out of him. We buy million dollars of supplements so we can cover up the fact that our cattle are cripples. We spend millions of dollars on cosmetic products to cover up faults in cattle. We paint cattle. We glue fake hair on cattle. We elevate the front end of cattle in stalls to make cattle look their best. We trim hooves to affect the perception of cattle. I'll maintain that if you take 100 hours of the next superstar bull you could probably get 5 minutes of him hitting stride by accident that could be edited for public viewing in a video. we try and figure out ways to make steers teeth stay in longer so we can show a 2 year old as a yearling. THEN WE ARE GOING TO JUMP SOMEONE ABOUT DOCTORING UP A PHOTO? It looked like to me deception is the name of the game. There is nothing wrong with merchandising. It can be an honorable thing. Mothers and preachers and coaches merchandise ideas and ethics. Just seems a little hypocritcal to me.

 

[rtmcc]

I AGREE WITH BOTH JBW AND AJ. I buy finished cattle and cows all week for the real world beef business (and the check book). But it sure is fun to come home and look at those pretty ones.  The day dreaming of the "perfect one" helps the many miles on the road during the week also.  I used the same "NASCAR" analogy at a clipping clinic we had at our place a couple weeks ago.

AJ, thats a good way to look at it.  Seems like some people that will push the edge of ethics are the most critical of many others.  Guess they figure if they start with an honest product and ad their bit of who-do to it they have a better chance.

In my mind a good picture or video is just good marketing.  We have drawn a lot of traffic to our cattle at consignment sales because we alway try to get a great picture in the catalog.  It makes people want to come find your animal when they get to the sale. As for the minor re-touching, have you ever ate a WHOPPER that doesn't look like the one pictured???

 

[box6rranch]

I've read and absorbed, so here goes my two cents worth.
Nothing in life is fair. We learned that leason a long time ago and unfortunately I preach it to my children today. If you want to compete you have to play the game. He who has the most money rules.
Do I like it, no. Do I wish it was different, yes. Am I likely to be able to change anything, no.
First NWSS we competed in we used the actual birth date. How embarrassing was that! We had another breeder come up to us after our class and flat out told us to compete you had to lie. Great.................
Personally I'd like to see an amateur competition. Let the big boys all show and compete against each other. That way when us small peons walk into the ring we aren't being judged off of what initials our cows names start with or who's leading the cow into the ring. Pull the class line up sheet out of the judge's hands as the entries enter the ring. Gee, it would be refreshing if the judges didn't know who's cows were entering the ring before he put his expert opinion in!
Some of us breed and show our own stock. How about having bred and owned classes? We've competed in those in a few competitions. Want to go further..................let's show breeding cattle and bulls off of their weight and not their birth dates. Boy that will ruffle a lot of feathers. Our bull showed at NWSS. One other in the class that weighed 400 pounds more. Please....................
Want to see more bulls on display? Don't knock the small breeders. Everyone is guilty of only wanting the big name genetics.................so you all get what you asked for. Our family has been promoting an awesome bull from Sin City/KaBa, Brad's seen and heard about him. Do you think we can raise any interest for semen sales? He showed against Gus in previous years and beat him. He's had a super crop of first season calves. We'll keep him to ourselves and continue to improve our own herd.
We'll continue on our merry road. Compete at the big shows. Maybe someday we'll rise to the top with something bred from our own stock. But in our home state competitions we've done pretty dog gone good. That has to be enough for us.
Thanks for giving us the opportunity to voice our opinions, that's what makes the world go round

 

[shortyisqueen]

I'm not knocking the showring. However It seems a little goofy to knock someone about doctoring photos. Then you go out and lie about a birth date on your show calf(everybody does it) so its okay. Then you have a bull calf with a 122# bw....lets just call it 99#(everybody does it). Our goal is to raise a heatseeker son that looks like a purebred Shorthorn to raise steers for the Texas market. We have raised maine anjous that end up showing as Herfords,Shorthorns, and Angus. We raised chi's that looked like and showed as Angus. We put full grown calves in coolers. We grow hair on a calf to make him look thick then we can shape all of the holes out of him. We buy million dollars of supplements so we can cover up the fact that our cattle are cripples. We spend millions of dollars on cosmetic products to cover up faults in cattle. We paint cattle. We glue fake hair on cattle. We elevate the front end of cattle in stalls to make cattle look their best. We trim hooves to affect the perception of cattle. I'll maintain that if you take 100 hours of the next superstar bull you could probably get 5 minutes of him hitting stride by accident that could be edited for public viewing in a video. we try and figure out ways to make steers teeth stay in longer so we can show a 2 year old as a yearling. THEN WE ARE GOING TO JUMP SOMEONE ABOUT DOCTORING UP A PHOTO? It looked like to me deception is the name of the game. There is nothing wrong with merchandising. It can be an honorable thing. Mothers and preachers and coaches merchandise ideas and ethics. Just seems a little hypocritcal to me.

I'm not knocking...knocking the showing. However, it seems a little bit absurd to paint everyone with the same brush. I go out and report the exact date my show calf was born (because I can compete without lying). If I have a bull calf with a 122 # BW, I steer him because I don't want anyone to have to deal with that problem. My goal is to raise a defect-free bull that can raise steers that grade well after they walk out of the showring with a banner. I have raised Maines that end up showing as Maines, even though they were in the toughest class at the show. I believe in the spirit of competition and hard work and believe I would do just as good (or better) in a no-fit show as a fitted show. I will never halterbreak a cripple, let alone spend money on supplements for one. I'll maintain that if you go out into the national commercial cowherd, a certain percentage of the cattle there do not have optimum birthweights, are not efficient enough to fatten on grass, are not structurally sound, and have feet that need to be trimmed by sending them to the auction mart.

All segments of the industry have things we could improve upon, but to insinuate that someone has no morals because they walk into a showring with a well prepared animal is a sad thing indeed.

 

[olsun]

  Amen Shortyisqueen. Without goals to reach for, what else is there?  <party>

 

[justintime]

well said Katie... right on the money as usual.

 

[box6rranch]

........

 

[Show Heifer]

First let me state that I don't raise club calves, so this is a look from the outside in. Even with my limited knowledge of the club calf sire business, I am aware that nearly every picture you see is tweaked with photoshop. Bulls that are commonly used in the club calf business would not even be considered in the purebred world because of their structural issues, yes I understand that the structural problems go hand in hand with the extreme muscle and phenotype that is apperently most desired. Many of these bulls also carry huge birth weights that would eliminate them from the purebred world. From what I have seen, bulls with the TH genetic defect are somewhat dominant in the business, not something the purebred world "should" tolerate either. Believe it or not some of these bulls are man made with hair, air, oil, calidex,etc. etc. - ya I may know more than I should, 30 years on the road will do that to you. So if I were to look for a bull to promote I would try to find one with a huge top, hip and bone, build him more with the above described items, he would likely have been a 150# c-section calf out of a carrier bull and a clean cow and as long as he can get from the feeder to the water tank in his pen thats good enough. Spend a couple of days washing and clipping him after he had been in the cooler for 90 days and take some pictures of him that I could photoshop in or out anything that was needed. And last but not least, go through all of my old CDs to find a really cool name for him - " God of Thunder" maybe. Obviously, I have exagerated the whole scenerio, but my point is this - These bulls are the "rock stars" and celebs of the cattle industry, no more of a representation of the cattle business than Brittany Spears is of the human race and as such they are subject to the "poperattzi" and public eye more than others. If you don't want people to talk about you (good or bad) stay out of the game. RW

I find it most interesting....if I recall you raise red angus?
Isn't that the breeding with marble bone? Isn't that the breed that is "confused as to what to do?"  Seems like to me, if it is "not tolerated" in the "purebred business" all red angus should be tested and papers pulled if a carrier.
And birth weights....come on rw, you know as well as I that purebred breeder have trouble "seeing the scale". If they don't why does a "calving ease sire" at one yearl of age, turns into a +4 epd by the time they are 3-4???  And birth dates???? Do "purebred breeders" find ALL the calves on the actual birth dates???  Isn't it funny how most "registered" calves are born during the last of the month or first of the month???? I guess those middle two weeks gets pretty boring.  I see several red angus bulls that are "Mel Gibsons" in a photo and then are really Pee Wee Herman when seen in "reality".
Do not point the finger at one segment when 3 more are pointing back at yourself!

As far as promoting a bull. I think it takes huge kahunas to promote any cattle these days. Yes, you open yourself up to critizisms and jealousy rages, but I guess you need a thick skin to be involved in the "big time".  Common sense SHOULD prevail when speaking of such animals, but, common sense is hard to find these days.
I would like to think MOST realize photos can be touched up, animals can be created (lets face it, hair is a fabulous "creater") and ANY animal (and I do mean ANY) can look good on a certain day, with certain lighting, with a certain camera, at a certain angle, a perfect clip job, and a unlimited budget.

I like honesty in promoting animals. I like the OWNER to represent the animal (not some hired show stick holder). I like the promotions to be "clean" (it is after all "for the youth".

It all boils down to believing in your animal and standing your ground. I have recommended several bulls that did not work for my genetics, but I liked the bull, liked the owners and will not hesitate to recommend them to a farm that I feel the bull would do a good job on.

 

[Throttle]

I would like to think MOST realize photos can be touched up, animals can be created (lets face it, hair is a fabulous "creater") and ANY animal (and I do mean ANY) can look good on a certain day, with certain lighting, with a certain camera, at a certain angle, a perfect clip job, and a unlimited budget.

Hair is the least of the worries when it comes to "creating" one. At least that is a heritable trait

 

[Dusty]

I would like to think MOST realize photos can be touched up, animals can be created (lets face it, hair is a fabulous "creater") and ANY animal (and I do mean ANY) can look good on a certain day, with certain lighting, with a certain camera, at a certain angle, a perfect clip job, and a unlimited budget.

Hair is the least of the worries when it comes to "creating" one. At least that is a heritable trait

LOL... At least the bull has a chance to pass on the hair... It's hard for a bull to pass on the air or oil in his ass/top. 

 

[RSC]

I would like to think MOST realize photos can be touched up, animals can be created (lets face it, hair is a fabulous "creater") and ANY animal (and I do mean ANY) can look good on a certain day, with certain lighting, with a certain camera, at a certain angle, a perfect clip job, and a unlimited budget.

Hair is the least of the worries when it comes to "creating" one. At least that is a heritable trait

LOL... At least the bull has a chance to pass on the hair... It's hard for a bull to pass on the air or oil in his ass/top. 

  NICE! (lol)  People do that????  Hair is one thing,  Makes you wonder how many of the bulls on display are altered?

RSC

 

[knabe]

it's gotta be tough to take something every year and have the expectation that it be better each year.  i applaud all those who take the time and effort to do this.  if you don't show up, everybody wonders what happened.  i'm glad they show up or there wouldn't be anything to go to.