Bull Promotion- Controlled or UNcontrolled?

[inthebarnagain]

Nothing like running your hand across an animal and hearing it crackle.  Or feel extreme heat in just one spot while the rest is normal temp.

 

[knabe]

here's some different type of marketing with some  different perspective photos.

http://sustainablegenetics.com/bulls/loastofwyeumf8669.html

 

[box6rranch]

Then you have folks who don't alter their pics or animals and of course the animals don't stack up to those who do!

 

[Dusty]

Then you have folks who don't alter their pics or animals and of course the animals don't stack up to those who do!

You can spot a good one that is just pictured in the pasture without being fitted or anything.  It's harder to see a good one in the professional pics with the calf fitted to a T

 

[jbh]

I'm not knocking the showring. However It seems a little goofy to knock someone about doctoring photos. Then you go out and lie about a birth date on your show calf(everybody does it) so its okay. Then you have a bull calf with a 122# bw....lets just call it 99#(everybody does it). Our goal is to raise a heatseeker son that looks like a purebred Shorthorn to raise steers for the Texas market. We have raised maine anjous that end up showing as Herfords,Shorthorns, and Angus. We raised chi's that looked like and showed as Angus. We put full grown calves in coolers. We grow hair on a calf to make him look thick then we can shape all of the holes out of him. We buy million dollars of supplements so we can cover up the fact that our cattle are cripples. We spend millions of dollars on cosmetic products to cover up faults in cattle. We paint cattle. We glue fake hair on cattle. We elevate the front end of cattle in stalls to make cattle look their best. We trim hooves to affect the perception of cattle. I'll maintain that if you take 100 hours of the next superstar bull you could probably get 5 minutes of him hitting stride by accident that could be edited for public viewing in a video. we try and figure out ways to make steers teeth stay in longer so we can show a 2 year old as a yearling. THEN WE ARE GOING TO JUMP SOMEONE ABOUT DOCTORING UP A PHOTO? It looked like to me deception is the name of the game. There is nothing wrong with merchandising. It can be an honorable thing. Mothers and preachers and coaches merchandise ideas and ethics. Just seems a little hypocritcal to me.

AJ,

I agree with everything you said above, BUT, I want to throw a little different angle at you.

I'll be the first to admit that show cattle are a recreational based game that make ABSOLUTELY no sense to anyone from the outside looking in.  The game unfortunately is played nearly exactly as you described it, but remember in competition of any kind, anything goes until you get caught!  I'm not saying I agree with this mentality, but we all know it's true in athletics, business OR showing cattle, and the only morals you can answer for are yours at the end of the day.

This being said, I'd like to point out that the fake hair, the hoof trimming, the cosmetic products and everything else you mentioned are physical elements that we see all the time at shows and can learn to look through, even in pictures, you can look through them.......BUT.....when you are trying to sell a product, such as semen, off of a photo that has been SEVERELY manipulated......far beyond what fake hair, clippers and glue can do......to a group of innocent bystanders who don't get off of the farm much, and just simply want to try a new or different avenue that could result in additional income, and are forming an opinion off of that photo that has been SEVERELY manipulated,.....in my eyes this is considered FRAUD!  And if it were to ever land in a court of law, I'm bettin' they'd agree.  If there are any attorneys reading this.....please give me an opinion.(at NO charge)lol 

Don't get me wrong.....I'm not against cleaning photos, or as I said earlier, doing anything to them that you could have done with a comb or clippers, but we have to draw the line somewhere or people get hurt....I see it every year!  Yes, a video can be edited to show only good, BUT at least it's moving at many frames per second, not just sitting in a $1,000 ad!  YOU are EXACTLY RIGHT!  Deception is the name of the game in marketing.......you see and hear it everyday in TV ads, Print ads and Radio ads,.....the only difference is they are at a level high enough to attract watchdogs to protect against fraudulent deception.....WE are not!  HYPOCRITICAL?.....maybe......but our frayed moral tightrope we've been walking the past few years is about to bust and drop several on their heads and it isn't gonna be pretty!

Good post AJ!

 

[RSC]

  Deception is the name of the game in marketing.......you see and hear it everyday in TV ads, Print ads and Radio ads,.....the only difference is they are at a level high enough to attract watchdogs to protect against fraudulent deception.....WE are not!  HYPOCRITICAL?.....maybe......but our frayed moral tightrope we've been walking the past few years is about to bust and drop several on their heads and it isn't gonna be pretty!

Good post AJ!
[/quote]  Brad you bring up a good point about the watchdogs.  Did you happen to read the tread last week about the Names of Display bulls?  Do people that name there bulls after copyright names or famous people get permission?  If not, when is this going to come back and bite them?  A few I seen this year, Captain Morgan, Tiger Woods and one named after our President.

Tony

 

[jbw]

first I have to say this has to be one of the best posts that has been on here in along time.  I agree with alot of what everyone is saying. I really liked what jbh said in his last post about this is not going to be pretty.  What gets me is some of the people have made a great name for themselves and others are on the opposite end of the spectrum.  What I don't get is that people gripe and complain about some of the traiders and semen peddlers, but if you don't like it don't support them, it is a free world!  I think their is enough great people out there to work with that there shouldn't be a problem. We all know were the collection facilities are, in my mind that is the best trip, I make each spring. I like to see a bull before I use him, but I know who's opinion I value at describing what a certain animal is and isn't.  These next few years are going to weed alot of people out, in the production end and in the buying end. I think the cream always rises to the top.  As long as all the 'tricks of the trade' are being allowed it isn't going to get any better. The proof is in the calves, the unfortunate thing is sometimes the bull is dead before he ever get's his time in the spotlight.

 

[Dusty]

first I have to say this has to be one of the best posts that has been on here in along time.  I agree with alot of what everyone is saying. I really liked what jbh said in his last post about this is not going to be pretty.  What gets me is some of the people have made a great name for themselves and others are on the opposite end of the spectrum.  What I don't get is that people gripe and complain about some of the traiders and semen peddlers, but if you don't like it don't support them, it is a free world!  I think their is enough great people out there to work with that there shouldn't be a problem. We all know were the collection facilities are, in my mind that is the best trip, I make each spring. I like to see a bull before I use him, but I know who's opinion I value at describing what a certain animal is and isn't.  These next few years are going to weed alot of people out, in the production end and in the buying end. I think the cream always rises to the top.  As long as all the 'tricks of the trade' are being allowed it isn't going to get any better. The proof is in the calves, the unfortunate thing is sometimes the bull is dead before he ever get's his time in the spotlight.

A trip to the bull stud can be fun.  However a person needs to take what they see with a grain of salt especially when evaulating terminal club calf sires.  Some of the best bulls for raising steers would make you puke if you saw them at the stud.  They just don't look good as a mature bull.  Others however, mature out really nice and can still cover cows at 7 or 8 years old... 

 

[farwest]

Again, most of the negativeness of the club calf world comes from those on the outside looking in.  I care whats been done to these bulls to look like they do, but then again i don't.  Any one who uses more than a couple of these new bulls the first year is a fool.  The calves have to tell the answer.  I saw a post on here somewhere someone telling of about 8 of these bulls they were using on different bloodline cows.  STUPID.  Ten percent of these bulls may survive the test of time.  As for the people bashing of the bulls in Denver, i just hate it.  To wander through those bulls for a couple days is as good as any sight seeing  vacation i've been on.  It becomes an addiction, we all keep bashing, it will end.

 

[shortyjock89]

Again, most of the negativeness of the club calf world comes from those on the outside looking in.  I care whats been done to these bulls to look like they do, but then again i don't.  Any one who uses more than a couple of these new bulls the first year is a fool.   The calves have to tell the answer.  I saw a post on here somewhere someone telling of about 8 of these bulls they were using on different bloodline cows.  STUPID.  Ten percent of these bulls may survive the test of time.  As for the people bashing of the bulls in Denver, i just hate it.  To wander through those bulls for a couple days is as good as any sight seeing  vacation i've been on.  It becomes an addiction, we all keep bashing, it will end.

I agree 100%.  I think we're going to try maybe ONE of the new bulls, on one or two cows of the SAME cow family.  I hope the people that do a lot of the bashing will someday see how much work it takes to get the bulls out there and looking good, I appreciate the effort and hope they continue to bring the bulls out every year.

 

[aj]

It's been a pleasure butting heads with all of you! Excellent!

 

[ROAD WARRIOR]

First let me state that I don't raise club calves, so this is a look from the outside in. Even with my limited knowledge of the club calf sire business, I am aware that nearly every picture you see is tweaked with photoshop. Bulls that are commonly used in the club calf business would not even be considered in the purebred world because of their structural issues, yes I understand that the structural problems go hand in hand with the extreme muscle and phenotype that is apperently most desired. Many of these bulls also carry huge birth weights that would eliminate them from the purebred world. From what I have seen, bulls with the TH genetic defect are somewhat dominant in the business, not something the purebred world "should" tolerate either. Believe it or not some of these bulls are man made with hair, air, oil, calidex,etc. etc. - ya I may know more than I should, 30 years on the road will do that to you. So if I were to look for a bull to promote I would try to find one with a huge top, hip and bone, build him more with the above described items, he would likely have been a 150# c-section calf out of a carrier bull and a clean cow and as long as he can get from the feeder to the water tank in his pen thats good enough. Spend a couple of days washing and clipping him after he had been in the cooler for 90 days and take some pictures of him that I could photoshop in or out anything that was needed. And last but not least, go through all of my old CDs to find a really cool name for him - " God of Thunder" maybe. Obviously, I have exagerated the whole scenerio, but my point is this - These bulls are the "rock stars" and celebs of the cattle industry, no more of a representation of the cattle business than Brittany Spears is of the human race and as such they are subject to the "poperattzi" and public eye more than others. If you don't want people to talk about you (good or bad) stay out of the game. RW

I find it most interesting....if I recall you raise red angus?
Isn't that the breeding with marble bone? Isn't that the breed that is "confused as to what to do?"  Seems like to me, if it is "not tolerated" in the "purebred business" all red angus should be tested and papers pulled if a carrier.
And birth weights....come on rw, you know as well as I that purebred breeder have trouble "seeing the scale". If they don't why does a "calving ease sire" at one yearl of age, turns into a +4 epd by the time they are 3-4???  And birth dates???? Do "purebred breeders" find ALL the calves on the actual birth dates???  Isn't it funny how most "registered" calves are born during the last of the month or first of the month???? I guess those middle two weeks gets pretty boring.  I see several red angus bulls that are "Mel Gibsons" in a photo and then are really Pee Wee Herman when seen in "reality".
Do not point the finger at one segment when 3 more are pointing back at yourself!

As far as promoting a bull. I think it takes huge kahunas to promote any cattle these days. Yes, you open yourself up to critizisms and jealousy rages, but I guess you need a thick skin to be involved in the "big time".  Common sense SHOULD prevail when speaking of such animals, but, common sense is hard to find these days.
I would like to think MOST realize photos can be touched up, animals can be created (lets face it, hair is a fabulous "creater") and ANY animal (and I do mean ANY) can look good on a certain day, with certain lighting, with a certain camera, at a certain angle, a perfect clip job, and a unlimited budget.

I like honesty in promoting animals. I like the OWNER to represent the animal (not some hired show stick holder). I like the promotions to be "clean" (it is after all "for the youth".

It all boils down to believing in your animal and standing your ground. I have recommended several bulls that did not work for my genetics, but I liked the bull, liked the owners and will not hesitate to recommend them to a farm that I feel the bull would do a good job on.

SH - First of all - yes I do raise RA cattle and yes there has been marble bone detected in them - HOWEVER - there is currently no test available. The current dirty animals are animals that I never used or ever came close to using even a distant relative of - Why? Because even though they were deemed by the political correct crowd to be the next great thing I personally thought that they were pieces of crap! Just because the breeders of a particular animal were "founding breeders" of RA does not exclude them from raising garbage and having enough political power to push the same junk that should have been cut when it hit the ground. As far as the birth weight issue goes - if you refer to my original post you will see where I refered to the manipulation of sire and contemporary groups. There are crooks in every breed including RA that manipulate all areas of data turned in - including the birth weight as well as the birth dates, that is why the calving ease yearling bull turns into a " i'll never breed another heifer again " bull by the time he is 3 years old. If you doubt the BW or birth dates on my calves, I invite you to come over during calving season and help me calve the girls out - we only live about 30 miles from each other. I may never make a big splash like some of our other neighbors ( unless you count the past national champion bull thats standing out my back door) but I'll never have trouble sleeping at night either. As far as promoting a bull - I say go for it! But if you're campaigning a carrier that weighed 150 lbs at birth with so many structural issues that he will not see his 3rd birth day, don't complain if somebody notices it and posts their oppinion. I have tried to stay fairly neutral on this board and not express my true thoughts on alot of bulls that I have been questioned about so as not to step on peoples toes unless I PMed someone directly. But the older I get the less patience I have. If anyone wants my real oppinion on RA genetics ask away - the gloves are off! RW

 

[OH Breeder]

This may or may not fit in here. But, I try not to put as much in the look of the bull as the look of their calves. I have one cow the kids said sell her she is ugly. Big head and they call her mule. She is not very pretty to look at. But her calves are outstanding. I have had all steers out of her. Every year she produces a marketable calf on time and without trouble. When I look at sires, I hope that they produce a marketable calf without too much trouble.
Unfortunately we start promoting bulls and trying to collect them in some cases when they are too young. The industry has made it acceptable to shoot "hairball" pictures and make decisions based on that. What we should be looking are the calves. If you look at Carney Man for instance, he isn't fluffy and really ain't that purdy, but, he has some great calves. I think you have to put it all in perspective when evaluating potential sires for your herd. I feel like the promoters have a job to do and try to market a product. I say go for it. We as consumers are suppose to be discretionary in our decisions and if your aren't who's fault is it. I do not think it is the marketers fault.
how many people have bought the "first" new model of a car only to find it has too many bugs to be worked out. Ain't much different with new AI sires, wait an til they have had their product out there because who knows maybe they need to be recalled. I have never had the nerve to use a "hot new" sire in my herd.

Someone was suppose to try heat waves red brother on here and then tell us how it worked out. Can't remember who that is right now.......

JMO, aint worth much

 

[CAB]

  I remember, was just thinking about that yestarday as a matter of fact.

 

[knabe]

this guy?

http://www.showsteers.com/farrer/index.htm

 

[loveRedcows]

This IS one of the most interesting posts I've read AND everyone seems to have been able to state their opinion without getting too wound up...  So here goes mine!  We are breeders first & show exhibitors occasionally.  We show what we raise without the benefit of fitters -- sometimes we stand at the front of the line, often we stand middle or at the back but that's the show ring.  On the promotion side I agree that a little extra time spent getting that 'just right' photo is extremely important for presentation BUT performance data (real not fictional) is important also in the seedstock business.  Having witnessed over the years the manipulation of data in our breed, I have to agree with Road Warrior.  That's the main reason we breed what WE like & don't chase the 'hot bulls' & it seems to work for us 'cause the buyers keep coming back for more even though we don't do a lot of promotion, etc.  I have my own set of ethics which apparently aren't always popular with the 'big names' and after observing some of the antics that go on in the tie-outs have decided will never buy a steer at a big show sale.  We have, however been experimenting with some clubby sires trying to raise a few competitive steers for the grandsons and it has been interesting and actually a little fun to see what the matings produce.  it's a totally different world and if that's what folks want to do then more power to them, but when I see it creeping into the purebred world I tend to get upset, which is why I now state that I raise "Traditional" Red Angus so as not to be confused with the "Modern" ones (I didn't come up with these terms, they were actually used by a judge at a state-level show).  I guess what I'm getting at is that I'd like to see cattle shown with what God gave them & not man-made enhancements.  But the show ring will never be able to reach a happy medium with the real world until the judges become smart enough to recognize AND CONDEMN these unethical practices.  

 

[j3cattleco]

Like many others have already stated I think this has been one of the best topics posted on here in a while.  Good Job jbh starting a great discussion.  Maybe you should enter some contest for asking questions or interviewing people or something!    There too many good quotes to quote so I will just maybe add my thoughts.  First I think the main difference in anybody's herd is the momma's.  Everyone uses pretty much the same bulls, within their breed or section of the industry, so what sets apart production is the momma's.  This is where I think the greatest travesty in the club calf world is.  Everyone is using heatwave or a derivative to try and raise the next great show steer or heifer and we are quickly forgetting about the need for maternal genetics.  I know a few people who bred their entire cow herds back maternally for this next year trying to restart the process they started years ago.  Just as jbh stated earlier we need to look back a few generations on top and bottom and determine when we breed what we are looking at.  Research is key, knowing what to expect from each cow in your herd, what are her strengths and weakness and what are the strengths and weaknesses of this proposed mating.  Like many have said earlier it's not what's the best animal?  It's whats the best animal for my herd?  We too are ones who won't use very many of the new bulls until they have started to prove themselves, unless we know about the cow side.  We used a TON of Smooth Sailing this last year before we had seen many, but we know the predictability of that cow family.  We will use a lot of another new bull this year also, but only because we know his momma doesn't miss.

 

[box6rranch]

Amen to that loveRedcows!!!!!
You want to get to the heart of it get some judges with cohones that aren't in bed with all the politics and are willing to take a stand!!!!!! I'd love to see one judge one time kick a 2 year old heifer showing in a yearling class to the end and tell the audience that heifer should have a calf to her side!!!! The same goes with the bull classes.
Then get to the various associations and condemn the falsifications and we'll live in a perfect world  

 

[rhdrachel]

  Brad you bring up a good point about the watchdogs.  Did you happen to read the tread last week about the Names of Display bulls?  Do people that name there bulls after copyright names or famous people get permission?  If not, when is this going to come back and bite them?  A few I seen this year, Captain Morgan, Tiger Woods and one named after our President.

[/quote]

I can't speak for every bull on here, but I know that for many of the bulls we represent at RHD, we do go to the effort to get legal permission on any bull that may have a name that is questionable for copyright. If we feel a bull is questionable, we like to have written permission from the copyright or trademark owner before we use it. Most of the times I've dealt with this...the person I talk to just laughs when they hear there is a cow named that. I took enough classes in media law at MSU to know that stuff is serious. That's why we have a lawyer on retainer at RHD just to deal with copyright infringement -- both ways actually. We want to make sure we are doing everything by the book for our clients and then we also copyright every ad we do and pursue copyright infringement on people who copy our work.

I know in the past I can think of several bulls we have done work for that we have "cleared" the use of the name with a parent company. One I think of off the top of my head was Monopoly. I have also heard of other bulls we don't work with where the owner has gotten clearance to use the names, even paid some fees at some point to use a name (Mossy Oak). In general at RHD if there is a question about this, we tend to be on the overly-cautious side. Better to be safe than sorry.

 

[farwest]

RSC, did i notice you selling a bull called nacho, better contact those chip companies, put an end to you.