Combined curly calf info

[aj]

Dang, I was also going to add.Take the potato famine and say Irish imigration into this country. Disease took up to 80% of the imigrants on the boat and on U.S. soil. I think the say 20% survivors may have had the genetic makeup to survive the disease. That would make their offspring superior in that regard. In my area their are stories of frontier families loosing"mainly babies" to what they called "consumption". One guy lost his wife and 5 kids and eventually his mind on the Kansas prarie. I have heard people say that the survivors of this kind of situation may be genentically different. Fort Wallace south of here had a 70% desertion rate in say 1870.Alot of death due to epidemics(although some just went to the goldfields in Colorado) occured. I don't know? Makes me scared of the next biological attack anyway.

 

[Show Dad]

AJ - Life is hard. Survival even harder. If you look back though out history, man is always striving to allow those who would other wise perish to live longer. But has been nature which has always made an adjustment through disease, famine or disasters to the human population.

Genetics play a role in the scheme but are not the holy grail to survival.

 

[BIGTEX]

......i  agree with stem cell research......and the last time i  checked..... its a womans constitunion right to have an abortion......so since i'm not a woman, thats one  i'll never have to worry about...hows about you tex?......as far a c calf/th /pha/ ect  is concerned and " are we fooling with genetics to much?....again the last tiime i checked...each individual cattlemen alone can make decisions to " create" what ever he wants to with in his own tank and pasture............ie...i have an aquantince who got rid of every straw of " dirty" maine semen he had.....would you have preferered he threw it away....or would you have prefered to have bought it all from him ,    you dont have to answer that...i think i already know....the main uncontrollable  varible  in cattle genetics are the , i's / mes, / and we's .......... reasearch has given us facts....what we do with them is soley up  to us......i dont believe the problem lies in the reasearch  and results of provided facts....if a cow was carring a terminal  pha calf....and she knew it ( and you didnt )...what do you think she would like to do ?.......would you allow her to  be a part of that  decision tex?........jbarl

Since I am not a cow, that's one I'll never have to worry about.


As for your cow that's carrying a PHA terminal calf and she knew it. What if she aborted the calf and went back to the same bull and had another pregnancy that was a PHA terminal calf, had it aborted and did the same thing for 15 years would that be OK in you eyes???? Would you pay for the 15 abortions? Would you let her be a part of that? Or would you take the decision away from her?



WOW, I just did spell check, It's real easy you should try it sometime.

 

[Dusty]

I agree about JbarL's posts also.  You seem to be a pretty intelligent individual, but your posts are really hard to read.  Try and put some more structure into your posts, it will make them a lot easier to read...

 

[JbarL]

......i  agree with stem cell research......and the last time i  checked..... its a womans constitunion right to have an abortion......so since i'm not a woman, thats one  i'll never have to worry about...hows about you tex?......as far a c calf/th /pha/ ect  is concerned and " are we fooling with genetics to much?....again the last tiime i checked...each individual cattlemen alone can make decisions to " create" what ever he wants to with in his own tank and pasture............ie...i have an aquantince who got rid of every straw of " dirty" maine semen he had.....would you have preferered he threw it away....or would you have prefered to have bought it all from him ,    you dont have to answer that...i think i already know....the main uncontrollable  varible  in cattle genetics are the , i's / mes, / and we's .......... reasearch has given us facts....what we do with them is soley up  to us......i dont believe the problem lies in the reasearch  and results of provided facts....if a cow was carring a terminal  pha calf....and she knew it ( and you didnt )...what do you think she would like to do ?.......would you allow her to  be a part of that  decision tex?........jbarl

Since I am not a cow, that's one I'll never have to worry about.


As for your cow that's carrying a PHA terminal calf and she knew it. What if she aborted the calf and went back to the same bull and had another pregnancy that was a PHA terminal calf, had it aborted and did the same thing for 15 years would that be OK in you eyes???? Would you pay for the 15 abortions? Would you let her be a part of that? Or would you take the decision away from her?



WOW, I just did spell check, It's real easy you should try it sometime.

its pretty obvious your not a cow......but i am  responsible for  my animals.....i make just about all the decisons for my cattle,....and my dog, and my cat...after 15 abortions, i think some of my friends would probally step in and educate me,...probally about after the second abortion....but i guess if "i" wanted to abort her 15 times i could( small price  to pay i guess "in the big leagues").....i've just been given so much information/help/ and direction on here i "should" no better....spell check??....i thought that was monies avaliable  for a welfare reading program, i quess i can quit waiting on that money to start commin' in....dang, i was looking forward to that, i can barely get by the way it is............jbarl.

 

[knabe]

I have a hard time following these posts also.Not to hijack the post but....I am ccurrently reading (1491 New revelations of the Americas before Columbus).One of the main points is that us white folk underestimate the population of the Americas before Columbus landed. There is a theory that epidemics wiped out between 25%-95% of their population thus there were alot more people here at one time than historians originally thought. Why? Two things.First, the new world was virgin soil. They had never been exposed to small pox and what not so they were really hammered. Two, the indians moved into the new world by small numbers thus their homogeneous gene pool over time.For example 9 out of 10 South American indians have type O blood. There is a theory that thw "human leukocyte antigens HLA's"  of the American indians were not able to combat epidemics because of the homogeneousity of their makeup. This would be a "bad for linebreeding in this case.I thinlk interesting. I would make a case for genetic diversity here.

linebreeding would identify this, and one would incorporate this trait by crossing with european stock at some point.  does one really think that we can stop migration if we just go back to a nomadic lifestyle?  perhaps life under xerxes  would be preferable, or perhaps a human sacrifice culture, or any other silly  pyramid scheme.    amazing that some indians benefitted from a european education.  too numerous to list.  linebreeding is not closing your herd forever, that would be ignorance.

also, indians are thought to have transferred some population killing disease as well back to america.  this is not a one-way, europeans always bad problem.  if the indians were so vulnerable, what would have been a "better" course of action.  subsidize their military so they could kill us?  interbreed with them very carefully so we could have a global village and so that both cultures would disappear in the name of diversity?  this notion that indians were not killing each other aggressively is silly.  the notion that they did not commit enormous environmental mistakes is silly as well.  the indians are not some more perfect benevolent man that we need to bow down to.  there are many other regions in european ancestry that is benevolently homozygous compared to indians.  i am really getting annoyed with the constant bashing of europeans for every problem that exists in the world.  think if their were no europeans and where we would be today as a species.  yes, "we" have made mistakes.  all cultures and societies have and will continue to make.

 

[JbarL]

I agree about JbarL's posts also.  You seem to be a pretty intelligent individual, but your posts are really hard to read.   Try and put some more structure into your posts, it will make them a lot easier to read...

dusty...and all ...my apologies to all who have had to put up with my prose....truth is..the quards and nurses here at the "facility" dont allow me to have sharp things, matches and laptops....so when they make there rounds, i have to hide all my comunication devices/knives and fire....i am  hoping to  get more freedoms after my next evaluation.  actually i was looking forwrd to being out again soon.....but since it looks like i'm not going to be getting that spell check....i simply dont think i can afford another appeal....either way...you all have made my stay here more bearable......jbarl  # 243567  <cowboy>

 

[aj]

knabe you are right.I am not high on the native american constantly fighting for skeletons of say paleo-indians because of the NAGPRA act(like the Kenniwick man deal).I agree...why did the clovis culture not have a industrial revelution like the Europeans?The book mentioned that it was thought that syphillus went from the Americas to say Europe.I am off subject.Genetics are interesting. The books point was the americas were hit hard by epidemics an there was a theory that genetics played a role in it.I think humans should occasionally outbreed(democrats to republicans) to avoid problems. I'm just kidding. ;D They should never interbreed. ;D I'm just kidding. ;D

 

[aj]

I guess there is a chance curly calf may be in Red Angus genetics...or not?What say you?

 

[knabe]

I think humans should occasionally outbreed(democrats to republicans) to avoid problems. I'm just kidding. ;D They should never interbreed. ;D I'm just kidding. ;D

breeding between males and females used to solve this (maternalaternal). now that there are so many soybean castrated males, with no counterbalance, and even if there was, that would be a hormone nightmare, though politically correct, there is no more balance.  balance is good.  leaning too much one way, one loses sight of the fulcrum.  no, this is not the "supposed" fulcrum between socialism and capitalism.  without a fulcrum, one only digs a hole in the ground sliding a little at a time, so unnoticed that the discussion turns to how fast the hole is dug rather than any discussion about the fulcrum.

 

[DL]

New update about inheritance of CCS
http://www.angus.org/notice_102408.pdf

 

[red]

OK, I admit I'm late to the party on this. How long has this been an issue?  We know from back tracing Maine pedigrees we can almost pin point to where PHA might have started. Telos- remember the fun of pedigree CSI? Is this from more recent bloodlines or does it go way back? I know a certain bull has been mentioned, I think 1680 but I'm lost w/ angus bloodlines.
Maybe all of this has been addressed but I confess I got lost when the threads started on grammar issues. 
Also what other breeds will this potentially involve?
Maybe I'm asking for the Cliff Notes version?

Red

 

[Telos]

At this point in time I am primarily curious if Neanderthals and Homo Erectus were capable of interbreeding after being separated 700,000 years. I may have more of the Neanderthal characteristics because of my phenotype. If "Eve" lived in Africa, where did "Adam" live and who were their parents?

Maybe it's time to look at these third generation commercial cattle breeders who selected cows that could bring in a calf on her own for our seedstock genetics. Man has become too biased over "nature" in this selection process.

Buffy St. Marie a Canadian Cree Indian wrote a fabulous song in the 60's titled "Little Wheel Spin and Spin. Big Wheel Turn Around and  Around". It relates to what we are seeing on Wall Street and also what we've been exposed to with some seedstock producers with regard to genetic defects. It goes... "Everyone knows and Nobody Tells"..."And the Big Wheels turn Around and Around". AJ, I think this would be a good one to add to your collective. It ranks up there with John Prine.

 

[Show Heifer]

SInce someone else brought up the human race. What is the human race going to look like in 100 or more years (if we live through these darn elections)? You have one "mother", having kids from multiple fathers, all with different last names. A "father" (I like to call them sperm donors) who sire many children from many "mothers" (baby carriers) all with different last names. No one knows who is who and then brothers and sister are marrying without knowing they are related.  Or sperm and egg donor collection sites???  Are we going to look like our TH/PHA cattle in 100 or so years.

And as a side note, I do support stem cell research.

 

[aj]

Thanks for the tip telos. Ordered the greatest hits album.

 

[JbarL]

New update about inheritance of CCS
http://www.angus.org/notice_102408.pdf

thanks dl....i know the double bred 1680 sceniero sure seems to be a positive direction in conclusion to the 47 out of 48 test cases reported....(as of the sept news letter)....this current notice/ update however seems to suggest that those overwhelming percentages of  twisted calf is "possibly" a concoindince related to just a single parent ?  seems the old timeres i know always seemed to suspect the dam as a culprit with any calf death/ deformity........ie....23 cows...1 bull ...1 or 2 still borns.....seems for them to blame the bull just never really came into play, the only genetic situation they  were concerned with  avoiding was direct inbreeding, and with the willie nilley breeding programs of the times...." accidents do happen"....either way, as i shared this  info with a couple of "old timers"  they each recalled having calves in the past that were classified as twisted calf..... ....and the only decision they seemed to question was the future of dam....my question is....as part of reasearch that is on going,  what is done with the dams past and future performance?....will they/ could they/ should they/  be bred back in a controlled format as well?...seems to me the next generation of the dams performance as well as the sires could hold as many  answers as the past.   jbarl

 

[Telos]

Thanks for the tip telos. Ordered the greatest hits album.

AJ, Martin Sexton's new Solo album is a must have!!!

 

[DL]

OK, I admit I'm late to the party on this. How long has this been an issue?  We know from back tracing Maine pedigrees we can almost pin point to where PHA might have started. Telos- remember the fun of pedigree CSI? Is this from more recent bloodlines or does it go way back? I know a certain bull has been mentioned, I think 1680 but I'm lost w/ angus bloodlines.
Maybe all of this has been addressed but I confess I got lost when the threads started on grammar issues. 
Also what other breeds will this potentially involve?
Maybe I'm asking for the Cliff Notes version?

Red

OK Red but only because it is your birthday - Cliff notes CCS

Curly Calf Syndrome (CCS) is a birth defect seen in Angus and Angus influenced cattle. It is believed to be genetic but the exact mode of inheritance is unknown (at this time). Calves with CCS are born dead or die shortly after birth. Calves have crooked and twisted legs and twisted spine. The joints of the legs are fixed  and cannot be moved (AKA arthrogryposis). There is muscle wasting. Ears can be set low on the head. There may be a cleft palate. The scientific name of CCS is Bovine Hereditable Arthrogryposis Multiplex Congenita (BHAMC), which translated means inherited crooked and stiff limbs and joints associated with other defects.

To date (my understanding) is that all affected calves trace to the Angus bull GAR Precision 1680 (BD 1990) who was a heavily used carcass bull and is present in many current AI sires. Most (but not all) calves trace to 1680 on both sides. Dr B and Barrel Racer are on the job and there should be a test soon.

aj - I don't know - I haven't seen any 1680 in the RA book and I suspect he is homozygous black - but if it goes back beyond 1680 (probably) - although there have been hints I would have to check and see if they carry the red gene - I would really like it if we could get the marble bone mutation identified - it is likely the same in both black and red

 

[ELBEE]

DL, isn't there some way we can blame this all on the Irish imports????

 

[aj]

Lee this stuff is interesting isn't it. I remember when the th deal first came out a bunch of people were blaming the th on those damn maine anjou and the appendix program. Then they were proven wrong. But wait then the pha deal came out so they could point their fingers at the maines in the end. Could the ccs deal go clear back to Europe?