ROAD WARRIOR said:
TJ - I guess I'm a little confused. I have read your posts that state your cows produce 1200 to 1300 pound calves at 13 to 14 months old, I'm assuming that these are the male counterparts to your replacement females that you are now telling me weigh 1140 pounds at maturity. Yes there may be hundreds of people that would like to buy a mini me but there are thousands that don't. My entire point of the above post was to state what my customers (who pay my bills) want. Yes you may have a RA cow that is not a good producer, not all of them are and as the matter of fact alot of them are not for the simple fact that most people do not cull their replacement females or their existing cow herd for quality, if you don't like that cow ship her, it's pretty simple. A frame score 4 bull in my country is worth 38 cents a pound reguardless of how "good" he is, assuming he weighs 1000 pounds - that makes him worth $380.00. A frame score 6 bull that is decent at all will bring between $1500.00 and $3000.00 at our sale. Pretty simple math for an old cowboy that makes his ENTIRE living off of the cattle business. Back when I first started out in the business I tried to sell any calf that I could to generate revanue, that meant frame score 4 through 8, as I matured as a breeder my cow herd started changing and while I seldom get an 8 frame score anymore 6 and 7 frame scores are common with an occaisional 5 thrown in as well. The cows that produced the 4 frame scores have long since been ran through Burger King. If you are going to survive in the purebred business ( the average is 7 years) you had better sell what your customers want to buy not what you want him to buy. RW
Sorry for the confusion... the fourteen 1,140 lb. cows verses ten 1,600 lb. cows was meant only as an example. Kinda like your “fictional” 1,000 lb. frame 4 bull was only an example. Why you didn't steer that "fictional bull", so that he would bring more money, baffles me.
I will say that 1,200-1,300 lb. cows can produce 1,200-1,300 lb. steers by 14 months. I’ve seen it happen over & over.
What I did say is that our 4.5 frame cattle have produced 1,300 lb. steers (actually one went 1,400+ lbs.) by 14 months of age, at the Great Western Beef Expo in Sterling, CO. back in the mid 90's. Our main herd sire, MHWF The Intimidator, was a 1,700 something lb. bull, and despite his smaller frame size, he sired the 2nd highest gaining steer & the highest gaining carcass (I can't tell you how they calculated that!) in the entire test one year (95 or 96). His pens did exceptional 2 years in a row. Angus, Maines, Charolais, Braunveih, Gelbveih, Chi's, etc. all competed in that test.
RE my 1,600 lb. Red Angus cow… I stated that some 1,600 lb. cows could do better. She looked exceptional (I had high hopes for her) & she stayed fat, she just wasn't raising heavy enough calves to suit me. I actually did ship her. But, she isn’t my only 1st hand experience with BIG Red Angus cows... David Smith of Wayward Wind Farms, bought some high dollar Red Angus Show Cattle at the NAILE, back in the early to mid 1990's (like 93 or so), & they had done some winning at the NAILE show. They also were pretty big (1,600 - 1,700 mature), they stayed pretty fat & they looked exceptional too... I managed Mr. Smith's cow herd, so I'm well aware of what BIG Red Angus will do... but this isn't about "Red Angus" (I don’t mind Red Angus composites)... I was just talking about MY own big Red Angus cow, only because besides Chi X's, she's the biggest cow that I've ever owned & I like to talk about my own personal experiences rather than theories.
With that said, I've yet to see a 1,600 lb. cow wean 60% of their body weight. My first ever BIG ChiX cow weaned some BIG calves, but she never weaned over 50% (maybe right at, but not over) of her body weight. I'm not saying it can't be done... I just haven't seen it. Not without creep feed. Maybe you have. Maybe somebody else has. Just sharing my own experience.
RE frame 4 bulls... a 1,000 lb. frame 4 bull is awfully light, IMHO. I've got a frame 1 Lowline "COW" that weighs over a 1,000, so I would sure hope that a frame 4 bull would be heavier. Some frame 4 bulls could easily weigh a ton or better.
You mention selling Red Angus bulls for $1,500-$3,000. Kit Pharo sells Red Angus bulls too. I doubt that he sells any over a frame 6. I also doubt that he sells any for less than $2,000 in his sales. He's selling his little bulls for a lot more than your “$380 fictional bull”. I'm selling smaller Lowline steers for more than that too.
RE Customers… You can either raise what your customers want or you can find new customers or you can demonstrate to current customers what your “new” animals will do. When I got my first Lowline bull, my dad didn't want anybody think that he had anything to do with Lowlines. However, when his own customers began eye balling the 1/2 bloods, he slowly began to wake up. After 5 years in the Lowline business, he now wants me to use fullblood Lowline bulls not only on his heifers, but also on a group of his cows too! When I started in Lowlines 5 years ago, I honestly didn't know 1 single person that wanted any Lowlines, not 1, but I've done OK.
I've already said that you can make money with BIG cows & if that's what you want to raise... raise em! I wish you nothing, but the best! I never said that you couldn't make money, but you sure seem to imply that BIG is the ONLY way & it's not & I'm not convinced that it's always the best way. The truth is, you can make money with frame 4.5, 1250-1,300 lb. "mini me's" too. 1 way is by selling show steers, instead of bulls. Another way, would be finding Kit Pharo's customers & selling them smaller Red Angus bulls.
There are ways & that is the point that I am trying to make. It may not be what you want to do (and that is OK with me if you don't), but this "nobody around here wants them" talk just doesn't fly when I know better. Everybody might not want them, but that doesn't mean that nobody wants them. Big difference.
As OH Breeder said... diversity is what makes the world go round.
