I give in--- to all shorthorn people--

[kfacres]

like it said.. I give in...

Today, I spent looking up extended pedigrees of our original founders of our cow families- and then looked up the bulls that we've kept daughters from- to form their extended pedigrees.  I've always looked at the pedigrees- and noticed that are linebred quite a bit- to the unknown person-- but never before had I realized how much.  I printed off 6 generations (64) ancestors in the furthest column today, and taped them on the wall to study.  From this, I took different colored highlighters to match common with common ( I ran out of colors- and had to start making my 'own' 'colors'.  It was unreal to me- to see how closely the generations were bred- especially to the deerpark cattle.  Now, keep in mind, I do not have a single animal with trump, or JPJ in them-- the two most popular bulls of today!  Even from cow family to cow family- there were quite a few similarities. 

Also, I bet that if 10 people were asked to name off 10 Shorthorn operations- I bet 5 of the 100 would be listed in our pedigrees-- Seriously, we've got ancestors from a few big namers- little people mostly-- cattle that are showring, club calf, dual purpose, seed stock-- and other breeds-- for the most part most of the people I'm sure were either people that nobody has ever heard of- or I'm sure aren't around today.  Speaking of other breeds- it's crazy how much Maine blood is in these cattle- I've got "purebreds", that are 9/16 pure Maine blood... 

So, in short folks- to all of you that i have called dumb, ignorant, and retarded for following the same ole- same ole BS.. I apologize as I just figured you couldn't figure out your own ideas for mating scenarios...  BUT I now know- this is not a current problem-- this is a breed problem-- something that has been going on since the beginning, and will continue forever. 

You know, I've always thought the Shorthorn+ deal was whacko and just another way for the ASA to get some extra $$$$, but honestly, maybe it's a plot to expand a very tight gene pool... 

Tomorrow, I'll continue my search and see what else I find...

 

[knabe]

i feel a post from JIT coming.

 

[irishshorthorns]

like it said.. I give in...

Today, I spent looking up extended pedigrees of our original founders of our cow families- and then looked up the bulls that we've kept daughters from- to form their extended pedigrees.  I've always looked at the pedigrees- and noticed that are linebred quite a bit- to the unknown person-- but never before had I realized how much.  I printed off 6 generations (64) ancestors in the furthest column today, and taped them on the wall to study.  From this, I took different colored highlighters to match common with common ( I ran out of colors- and had to start making my 'own' 'colors'.  It was unreal to me- to see how closely the generations were bred- especially to the deerpark cattle.  Now, keep in mind, I do not have a single animal with trump, or JPJ in them-- the two most popular bulls of today!  Even from cow family to cow family- there were quite a few similarities. 

Also, I bet that if 10 people were asked to name off 10 Shorthorn operations- I bet 5 of the 100 would be listed in our pedigrees-- Seriously, we've got ancestors from a few big namers- little people mostly-- cattle that are showring, club calf, dual purpose, seed stock-- and other breeds-- for the most part most of the people I'm sure were either people that nobody has ever heard of- or I'm sure aren't around today.  Speaking of other breeds- it's crazy how much Maine blood is in these cattle- I've got "purebreds", that are 9/16 pure Maine blood... 

So, in short folks- to all of you that i have called dumb, ignorant, and retarded for following the same ole- same ole BS.. I apologize as I just figured you couldn't figure out your own ideas for mating scenarios...   BUT I now know- this is not a current problem-- this is a breed problem-- something that has been going on since the beginning, and will continue forever. 

You know, I've always thought the Shorthorn+ deal was whacko and just another way for the ASA to get some extra $$$$, but honestly, maybe it's a plot to expand a very tight gene pool... 

Tomorrow, I'll continue my search and see what else I find...

Fear  ye little children, for the yawn factor here is very great. So great one fears a coma coming on.....YAWN.

 

[nck21]

I don't read alot of your posts Cut the BS, why don't you have JPJ or Trump influenced cattle?

 

[thunderdownunder]

You need to get out more  <beer> I wish I had a job which allowed me the time to undertake such in-depth analysis.

 

[nck21]

Sorry I haven't been on here for awhile and it doesn't help when he/she changes their username every two seconds.

 

[jaimiediamond]

Some food for thought here are 10 bulls with different pedigrees, I could have kept going but I was getting bored and my pay rate is pish poor.  I have not put in Trump, or Jake's Proud Jazz. My point is that there is a lot of genetic diversity in the breed its just taking the time to find what clicks with ones program and goals.

Bloodlines
Bull Pedigree 1) A&T Captain Obvious 606S

x3823684 HFS HL RED BARON
x3947054 PS PHA-F TH-F JG RED CLOUD
x3891446 JG 301 FIRST LADY TU156
Sire: x3974276 PHA-F TH-F GFS RED CLOUD 7026
3830562 WMF HUNTER 783
x3882847 GFS COUNTESS 9101
x3804055 MFB COUNTESS 607
x4099063 DRC59M4
x4099076 DRC14MK1
4099075 DRC875VA
Dam: x4100905 DRC 244MU
4100894 DRC 8K
sx4100895 DRC 358K1
4100893 DRC 8107L1



Bull Pedigree 2) High View’s Ace of Diamonds

                         *x3961218 PS PHA-F TH-F KA'BA LEGEND 102
*4001704 SYPS PHA-F TH-F JM VORTEC ET
*AR20470 PS WAUKARU WIMPLE 165
Sire: *x4090487 WERNACRES ACE HIGH 620
*x3961249 PHA-F TH-F GFS CREOLE 9590 ET
x4055347 HOMEDALE JULIE C
*x4024356 DSF JULIE 4K
*x3928793 CF ULTIMATE DRIVE X
*x4002833 PHA-F TH-F CF ROYAL X ET
*x3848031 CF CARMELE RB 950X
Dam: *x4096178 HI-VIEW 2ND ZELDA
*3973176 PHA-C TH-F 4D DOUBLE TROUBLE
*3997687 HI-VIEW TROUBLE ZELDA
*3963377 HI-VIEW CHOICE ZELDA



Bull Pedigree 3) Alta Cedar Signature 119N
                          xC461952 BANNER OLD OAK 22A
xC465913 BANNER OLD OAK 58E
xC659923 ALTA CEDAR GO GO 7TH
Sire: xC466876 ALTA CEDAR OAK'S SIGNATURE 19G
x3985943 EIONMOR MR GUS 30B
xC665848 ALTA CEDAR LORNA 51E
xC653223 ALTA CEDAR LORNA 2ND
x3977726 PHA-F TH-F EIONMOR MR GUS 85C
xC465034 ALTA CEDAR KNIGHT 122E
C653194 SLEEPY HOLLOW HOPE 5X
Dam: x4099948 TH-F ALTA CEDAR LILIAN 88G
C454339 PARAGON MR MIAMI 15M
C641523 ALTA CEDAR LILIAN 6TH
C635015 ALTA CEDAR LILIAN 3




Bull Pedigree 4) Ar Su Lu Massive 3140
*x3851902 BYLAND GOLDWALK
*x3897477 BYLAND GOLD DUST
x3835834 BYLAND APRIL 7F137
Sire: *x3963159 PHA-F TH-F BYLAND GOLD SPEAR
x3756117 LCS DESIGNER
x3881231 BYLAND AUGUSTA 1D40
x3735794 BYLAND AUGUSTA H 69
x3844460 J&H MIKES CUJO
x3895991 AR SU LU POPPIN GOOD P89
x3693075 PD AR SU LU POPPY
Dam: *x3983041 PD TH-F AR SU LU MISSIE 709
*x3841413 RB GREG 3RD
*x3876313 NS MISSIE 008
x3745732 VV MISSIE 65TH




Bull Pedigree 5) Diamond Regal Legend 4R
            x4046462 PHA-F TH-F DIAMOND CAPTAIN MARK 27C
xC468769 CIRCLE M MARK'S LEGEND 9L
xC662494 NORVYK DONNICA KATE 3D
Sire: x4103879 PHA-F TH-F NORTHERN LEGEND 3N
xC465234 RIVER RIDGE ELITE 38E
xC670283 TH-F ELITE BUTTERFLY 3G
xC665237 GLORY-JAY ELOQUENTBUTTERFLY 1E
*xC462512 BODMIN H M ALBERTA MARK 71A
x4046462 PHA-F TH-F DIAMOND CAPTAIN MARK 27C
x4001383 GAFA CAPT'S ROSEBUD DOLLY
Dam: xC668695 NEW BEGINNINGS GRACIE MAY 6G
C461006 T BAR MACTEXAS 15Z
C659569 DIAMOND BIRCH MAY 45B
xC647322 DIAMOND WILLOW MAY 23W




Bull Pedigree 6) Diamond Prophecy 21P
x3760725 SUTHERLAND LEADER 258
x3807340 TH-F BYLAND EAGLE F58
x3735794 BYLAND AUGUSTA H 69
Sire: x4021829 RB RED EAGLE Y2K
3717843 IRISH ENFORCER
x3814823 RB RUBY 126TH
x3753920 RB RUBY 114TH
xC462865 DIAMOND MACBEST 54B
x3982978 PHA-F TH-C GAFA CAPTAIN MACBEST 6G
xC657061 LADY'S CHARM 22Z
Dam: xC674011 DIAMOND KALIKA BARONESS 28K
*xC461461 GLENFORD REWARD 7Z
xC667600 DIAMOND FANCY BARONESS 23F
xC655616 OA DIAMOND JULIES BARONESS 29Z



Bull Pedigree 7) HC FL Touchdown 123T

x3944295 PHA-F TH-F EIONMOR MR GUS 80C
*x3966019 PS PHA-F TH-F STUDERS PRETENDER 96TH
*3866750 PS 3S BUNNY 004
Sire: *x4070779 PHA-F TH-F K-KIM LAST CALL 159N ET
*x3819643 PMSY PHA-F TH-F HS RODEO DRIVE 062WR
*x3851275 PSDY HR MONA LISA W684Y
x3808191 DEER TRAIL MONA LISA ET
x3801522 CC PRINCE
xC462579 BAR P PRINCE 9A
xC652335 BAR P GOLDIE 9Y
Dam: xC668768 PHA-F TH-F BAR P LOUISA 33F
x3534244 CLARK
xC660853 BAR P LOUISA 10C
xC642483 BAR P LEAH



Bull Pedigree 8) Saskvalley Ultra 12J
                          I612301 DEERPARK IMPROVER 52
x3891432 HUBERDALE MASTER CHARGE 42T
xC633168 HUBERDALE DE ROSE 4M
Sire: xC465368 TH-F SASKVALLEY CYLDE 12E
x3734473 MANITOBA SUNRISE
C648779 SASKVALLEY BRENDA 50W
xC645793 HUBERDALE TM BRENDA 90R
xC462845 SASKVALLEY SURPRISE 1B
xC464503 SASKVALLEY JUSTICE 3D
C659526 SASKVALLEY MARIANNE 54B
Dam: xC667617 SASKVALLEY LILY 170F
x3807258 HS PLATINUM PLUS
xC660902 SASKVALLEY LILY 40C
xC656768 SASKVALLEY LILY 7A




Bull Pedigree 9)  RS DV 034 329 08
                       x3934578 PHA-F TH-F DUNBEACON VENTURE
x4037900 RS DV 729 01
3975046 RR GIRL 34TH
Sire: x4078267 PHA-F TH-F RS DV729 01 034 04
x3902216 PHA-F TH-F SUTHERLAND TITLEIST 269 ET
x4022051 PHA-F TH-F RS GIRL 57TH
x3989959 RR GIRL 38TH
x3902216 PHA-F TH-F SUTHERLAND TITLEIST 269 ET
x4022053 PHA-F TH-F RS ST269 832 00
x3989963 RR GIRL 40TH
Dam: x4063546 RS GIRL 118 03
x4003031 RR MAX447 304 99
4037905 RS GIRL 62ND
x3989944 RR GIRL 35TH




Bull pedigree 10) Roanoke Flashback 713

            x2739468 PRIAM ROYAL LEADER
x2887446 CORONET MAX LEADER
x2787742 LAVENDER CORONITA 20TH
Sire: x3098353 TPS CORONET LEADER 21ST
2549780 CLUNY MERRY MONARCH
2906288 NONPAREIL LADY 163D
2722353 NONPAREIL LADY 138TH
x3668667 MOLLIE'S DEFENDER ADAIR
x3761269 RPS TRIBUNE 82
3686910 PS J&D'S GLORY ANN
Dam: x3933545 ROANOKE JESSAMINE 693
3730431 DSF CAUGHT IN A TRAP
3835295 ROANOKE JESSAMINE 208
3700024 ROANOKE JESSAMINE 11TH

 

[knabe]

Was this an nrcs project?

 

[mark tenenbaum]

Jaime really can type-that list would have taken me hours,and the most outcrossed cattle in the breed from those peds-are the Western Canadian ones;although Deertrail Goliathis back there in several known bulls.-If it made em bigger  thicker back in the day-there was no  such thing as a bad maine-or in rodeos case Chi.Plus alot of whom were never listed on reg papers.All the bulls listed by her are way good.Touchdown(a mix I like,we will see shortly) has maine from Pretenderand Cujo,and Chi from Rodeo,along with Guiness,a full sister to DCC Prohet,and Canadian.The RS bulls,and anything with Gold,Venture, or Goldwalk go back to Enticer-who was: a changer,a cow killer,and a maine-but mixed right-is the great great etc of the most consistent ce cattle in numbers in the breed,and the bull who made Waukaru down the line.Ace-whos record of good ones keeps rolling-goes back to Double Trouble,K and A Shakedown,Warrior,2975,Rodeo a couple times,Mark 1V,and everybody big,from the last 20 years.So-long story short-Chi (along with the nasty disposistions and BWs of Dreamboat) and Maine along with Irish and Dual,are what pre clubby cattle are likely to be.AS If you didnt know that YUK YUK BS-your only hope is to dig up some of Jaimes semen-to retain the purity of your herd.O0

 

[NHR]

To the OP.

The Shorthorn breed started and was perfected based on line breeding for 3 -4 generations and then outcross and then back to 3 or 4 line breds. Just read the history of the early breeders of Shorthorn.

 

[scotland]

to understand the impact of the some sires you need to go to the next 5 generations of the bulls Jamie listed... that is were the line breeding is more easily identifiedfied with sires like Deerpark Improver 52, Dividend ect ect

 

[kfacres]

Jamie- you missed the entire point- I was trying to make- even though you sure tried hard to counter balance it (thumbsup)...  What I'm saying is the that regardless where, or who you purchase shorthorns from-- they will, and have always been trend chasers... your posting of several bulls, just confirms my thoughts-  Does it really matter if everything on the 3 generation pedigree is different, if everyone on the 6th generation is exactly the same...  I went and looked up one of the 3 generation parents-- and same ole same ole appeared.. no use on wasting time to research them further...

I mentioned the big 2 shorthorn bulls- for a reason- mearly not to state my opinion on them, or their lack in my herd- but to mearly state that I  had figured my herd to be different--- but yet found it to be nearly the same-- I'd sure hate to see some of the pedigrees of the cattle that do trace to the big 2...

To the OP.

The Shorthorn breed started and was perfected based on line breeding for 3 -4 generations and then outcross and then back to 3 or 4 line breds. Just read the history of the early breeders of Shorthorn.

 

OBVIOUSLY- being this is how all breeds were created-- however due to your posting; the beginning of the shorthorn breed did not occur 6 generations ago- in the 70s.  as of which I am talking about...the deerpark era.

MARK_ YUP I Guess you are right...  btw.. I hate to break Jamie's secret.. but she copy/ pasted all the pedigrees... 

 

[knabe]

Convex thread

 

[kfacres]

Jamie.. can you actually post 5 'American' Shorthorn bulls that are different pedigreed from generation 3-6?

 

[knabe]

Jamie.. can you actually post 5 'American' Shorthorn bulls that are different pedigreed from generation 3-6?

Wot

 

[linnettejane]

have you looked at elbee?

 

[linnettejane]

i guess im confused what it is your looking for...a pedigree that has the same herd prefix top and bottom all the way back???

  so, basically you would have to find a person/family who orginally registered the first shorthorns, and continued breeding, registering, on a true closed herd basis, since the conception of the association in 1872?

good luck with that

 

[NHR]

To the OP.

The Shorthorn breed started and was perfected based on line breeding for 3 -4 generations and then outcross and then back to 3 or 4 line breds. Just read the history of the early breeders of Shorthorn.

 

OBVIOUSLY- being this is how all breeds were created-- however due to your posting; the beginning of the shorthorn breed did not occur 6 generations ago- in the 70s.  as of which I am talking about...the deerpark era.

[/quote]

I guess I should have clarified a little more. The line breeding that I referred to continues today and is very evident in the most Shorthorn herds weather for show or commercial. This is how you concentrate traits that you desire for your herd. For example Cates Farms will have Trump in the pedigree 3 or 4 times in their best show prospects.

 

[kfacres]

i guess im confused what it is your looking for...a pedigree that has the same herd prefix top and bottom all the way back???

  so, basically you would have to find a person/family who orginally registered the first shorthorns, and continued breeding, registering, on a true closed herd basis, since the conception of the association in 1872?

good luck with that

I'm not looking for anything-- just an observation I made- don't confuse me with Ryan Chandler.. I could care less how much linebreeding is in the pedigree, the more the better IMO-- but outcross is cool and works just as well for obtaining certain goals. 

What my reference is geared towards- is the negitivity I have expressed towards the hoards of Shorthorn people- of which I always assumed were either too close minded to go outside Trump= or the other popular bloodlines= or just plain too stupid=- I have now realized, there are no other bloodlines available-  It boils down to the question- WHat truly is outcross?  IF the pedigrees are completely different on a three generation pedigree, but identical on the 6th; what does it matter?  I realize that all breeds were created by linebreeding, and back crossing- but that was 100 generations ago, not 5.

To the OP.

The Shorthorn breed started and was perfected based on line breeding for 3 -4 generations and then outcross and then back to 3 or 4 line breds. Just read the history of the early breeders of Shorthorn.

 

OBVIOUSLY- being this is how all breeds were created-- however due to your posting; the beginning of the shorthorn breed did not occur 6 generations ago- in the 70s.  as of which I am talking about...the deerpark era.

I guess I should have clarified a little more. The line breeding that I referred to continues today and is very evident in the most Shorthorn herds weather for show or commercial. This is how you concentrate traits that you desire for your herd. For example Cates Farms will have Trump in the pedigree 3 or 4 times in their best show prospects.
[/quote]

Obviously, I am perhaps one of the world's biggest believers in linebreeding- don't waste your time preaching to me about it... WHat I am saying- is that there is NOT an option for a TRUE outcross in the breed-- from what I just now realized.  People, with intent completely different goals- hare using the same genetics- and end up linebreeding without knowing it.  I'm not searching for an outrcross, as I'd rather continue lining them up tighter-- but mearly a thought I had about the lack of diversity in the USA Shorthorn breed, in conbo with other countries as well I imagine. 

 

[Okotoks]

If anyone has the time to actually look at the 6th generation of the ten bulls listed the argument for a diverse genetic base is easier to make than for a linebred one. To start if you have to go to the 6th generation to find common ancestors they would have to repeat consistently for the resulting animal to be considered linebred. Wright's Inbreeding Coefficient hardly puts any weight on animals in the the 6th or 7th generation. The shorthorn breed has a very diverse genetic makeup for it's actual size. When you look at all the animals available from around the world there are many options.