I give in--- to all shorthorn people--

[kfacres]

If anyone has the time to actually look at the 6th generation of the ten bulls listed the argument for a diverse genetic base is easier to make than for a linebred one. To start if you have to go to the 6th generation to find common ancestors they would have to repeat consistently for the resulting animal to be considered linebred. Wright's Inbreeding Coefficient hardly puts any weight on animals in the the 6th or 7th generation. The shorthorn breed has a very diverse genetic makeup for it's actual size. When you look at all the animals available from around the world there are many options.

hey oko... you ignored my post about pedigrees.. think I'll return the favor...

 

[frostback]

So are you ignoring it because he does not agree with you?

 

[kfacres]

So are you ignoring it because he does not agree with you?

no b/c he thought he was the only one who could post cool, interesting linebred pedigree-- yet when someone else posted one.. it was ignored...

I could care less if he agreed with me-- but I strongly don't see how the USA bulls posted in that list of 10 could anyway be different in the 6th generation..

 

[frostback]

Wheres the pedigree of what bull?

 

[kfacres]

Wheres the pedigree of what bull?

it wasn't a pedigree of a bull...

 

[frostback]

So let me see if I got this. You didnt get the reaction, or comments, or whatever you thought you deserve, so your taking your ball and not playing anymore?

 

[thunderdownunder]

WHat I am saying- is that there is NOT an option for a TRUE outcross in the breed

If you want an outcross, look at another country ie Australia.

 

[Doc]

WHat I am saying- is that there is NOT an option for a TRUE outcross in the breed

If you want an outcross, look at another country ie Australia.

Even there you have to be careful as far as outcross goes. There was a lot of Prophet, Tribune , Enticer, & Grand Slam along with a few others & some from Canada. Not saying they all do , just saying there has been a lot of US genetics used.

 

[kfacres]

I DON'T WANT AN OUTCROSS--  I'M NOT SURE WHERE PEOPLE GET THAT I'M EITHER LOOKING FOR SOMETHING FROM A LINEBRED, GENERATIONAL PROGRAM- OUR I WANT AN OUTCROSS...  I WANT NEITHER..  I HAVE WHAT I WANT, AND THINK I FOUND WHAT I NEED.

I am simply apologizing to the many people i have made fun of, talked smack about- and pissed off over the years... and a little bit expressing my surprise for what I found while doing some piddly research.

Just the shorthorn people though-- the ones that I made fun of for using trump b/c there was nothing else out there...

JFC

 

[frostback]

Why didnt you just say that in the first place. Nice job.

 

[knabe]

Just the shorthorn people though-- the ones that I made fun of for using trump b/c there was nothing else out there...

JFC

just to be clear, you are not apologizing to anyone else for anything else, correct?  isn't that line apologizing, while retaining an outcross to not apologize to?

 

[NHR]

now that I think about it I could have saved my energy by not responding in the first place.  (lol)

 

[kfacres]

Just the shorthorn people though-- the ones that I made fun of for using trump b/c there was nothing else out there...

JFC

just to be clear, you are not apologizing to anyone else for anything else, correct?  isn't that line apologizing, while retaining an outcross to not apologize to?

right.. that's the only instance... 

hey knabe, btw: wanted to let you know the GOV doesn't work on Saturdays..

 

[knabe]

Muridale buster 14k seems to not be linebred and he's relatively outcrossy.  Seems like a good can date to both outcross and linebred.

I'd have to say he's one of the most impressive "modern" shorthorn bulls I've ever seen a pic of.

 

[Okotoks]

WHat I am saying- is that there is NOT an option for a TRUE outcross in the breed

If you want an outcross, look at another country ie Australia.

Here is an interesting Aussie bull, he does have a little over a 1/4 North American influence but just one of many examples!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ilU3ydW0pjY&feature=related

                BYLAND LEGACY SRD15 ET (H) Red MUSA3960199
JR LEGEND 78H (IMP USA) (P) Red 98X05815
JR FANCY LADY 96E (P) Red Little White FUSA3991845
Sire: THE GROVE NEW LEGEND Z058 (P) (ET) (AI) Roan BDBZ058
THE GROVE ANZAC T67 (P) Red 98/04030
THE GROVE DALE W699 (P) Roan BDBW699
THE GROVE CLASSY DALE 1ST (P) (ET) Roan 97/00034
Animal: YAMBURGAN POSEIDON D176 (P) Red YY D176
WEEBOLLABOLLA THEODORE T85 (P) Roan 98/03769
YAMBURGAN MITTIEBAH 3RD (P) (AI) Red Little White YY W136
YAMBURGAN CLOUDY 391ST (P) (TWIN) (APX) Roan 95A03641
Dam: YAMBURGAN ROYAL 70TH (P) Red Little White YY B10
YAMBURGAN NANDEWAR 3RD (P) Roan YY U130
YAMBURGAN ROYAL 64TH (P) Red YY X269
YAMBURGAN ROYAL 61ST (P) Red YY U111

 

[OH Breeder]

WHat I am saying- is that there is NOT an option for a TRUE outcross in the breed

If you want an outcross, look at another country ie Australia.

Here is an interesting Aussie bull, he does have a little over a 1/4 North American influence but just one of many examples!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ilU3ydW0pjY&feature=related

                BYLAND LEGACY SRD15 ET (H) Red MUSA3960199
JR LEGEND 78H (IMP USA) (P) Red 98X05815
JR FANCY LADY 96E (P) Red Little White FUSA3991845
Sire: THE GROVE NEW LEGEND Z058 (P) (ET) (AI) Roan BDBZ058
THE GROVE ANZAC T67 (P) Red 98/04030
THE GROVE DALE W699 (P) Roan BDBW699
THE GROVE CLASSY DALE 1ST (P) (ET) Roan 97/00034
Animal: YAMBURGAN POSEIDON D176 (P) Red YY D176
WEEBOLLABOLLA THEODORE T85 (P) Roan 98/03769
YAMBURGAN MITTIEBAH 3RD (P) (AI) Red Little White YY W136
YAMBURGAN CLOUDY 391ST (P) (TWIN) (APX) Roan 95A03641
Dam: YAMBURGAN ROYAL 70TH (P) Red Little White YY B10
YAMBURGAN NANDEWAR 3RD (P) Roan YY U130
YAMBURGAN ROYAL 64TH (P) Red YY X269
YAMBURGAN ROYAL 61ST (P) Red YY U111

You can see some of the Byland breeding in him. Nice looking bull.

 

[thunderdownunder]

WHat I am saying- is that there is NOT an option for a TRUE outcross in the breed

If you want an outcross, look at another country ie Australia.

Even there you have to be careful as far as outcross goes. There was a lot of Prophet, Tribune , Enticer, & Grand Slam along with a few others & some from Canada. Not saying they all do , just saying there has been a lot of US genetics used.

I think you'd be surprised at the number of herds here that have minimal or no influence from these bulls.

 

[Okotoks]

It's interesting how genetics from other countries get used back and forth over the generations.
One of the founding sires and most influential in the Mandalong program was Meriwong Royal Grant. He was born in 1959 and his sire was of US breeding, either imported into Australia directly or in dam. When the Kelso, Dandaloo, Bogan and Mandalong cattle were imported to North America in the 1970's they carried crosses of those US importations.
I am not sure how many North American cattle would descend from those same bloodlines that were exported. I actually have one vial of Meriwong Royal Grant in storage that I hope to use in the next year. Hopefully it is still good!
        OAKWOOD DETERMINATION (A.S.H.B.) Red M54/52324 
    HIGHBANK DETERMINATION IMP. IN DAM.U.S.A.! (P) Red M57/02793 
        CEREMONIOUS DOROTHY 5TH (IMP. U.S.A.) (P) Roan F57/05683 
  Sire: HIGHBANK ROYAL DUKE (P) Red Little White M57/03734 
        COMMANDER IN CHIEF (A.S.H.B.) Red M54/23662 
    OAKWOOD LAVENDER 27TH (IMP U S A) (P) Red Little White F57/06188 
          KNOLLS LAVENDER 4TH (A.S.H.B.) Roan F54/92503 
MERIWONG ROYAL GRANT (P) Red M59/01381 
        GUNDIBRI LADDIE 28TH (P) Roan M57/00527 
    GUNNAWARRA LADDIE 6TH (P) Roan M57/00895 
        GUNNAWARRA MAY (P) Red F57/01647 
  Dam: MERIWONG ADELE (P) Roan F57/08513 
        GUNNAWARRA RADIANT 6TH (P) Red M57/00411 
    MERIWONG AMENITY (P) Roan F57/05167 
        BOGAN AMENITY (P) White F57

 

[JTM]

I did similar research when I first started in Shorthorns about 8-9 years ago. I found that a lot of the more popular genetics in the show ring all went back to Deerpark Leader 13th, Deerpark Improver, Columbus, Clark, Millbrook Ransom G Nine 2975, Marc IV, Cunia, K&A Shakedown, Twin Creek Etulason. Basically all over the board with Irish Shorthorns, Fullblood Maine Anjou, and Milking Shorthorns. This is the genetic base almost no matter what you have. Even those who have been linebreeding with a closed herd for thirty years still go back to Deerpark and the Milking Shorthorns. Even the breeders who didn't want to implement Maine genetics or Chianina genetics still did.

I think overall it's a good thing because we have "created a breed" over these years that is tightly bred and can be used by Angus or whomever to get some really good hybrid vigor with a lot of other traits that are desirable.

 

[kfacres]

I did similar research when I first started in Shorthorns about 8-9 years ago. I found that a lot of the more popular genetics in the show ring all went back to Deerpark Leader 13th, Deerpark Improver, Columbus, Clark, Millbrook Ransom G Nine 2975, Marc IV, Cunia, K&A Shakedown, Twin Creek Etulason. Basically all over the board with Irish Shorthorns, Fullblood Maine Anjou, and Milking Shorthorns. This is the genetic base almost no matter what you have. Even those who have been linebreeding with a closed herd for thirty years still go back to Deerpark and the Milking Shorthorns. Even the breeders who didn't want to implement Maine genetics or Chianina genetics still did.

i agree very much so--- regardless if you are making show heifers, steers, club calves, commercial shorthorns, or just grass eaters-- they all trace to the same stuff- the difference lying in selection.

i guess that boils down to the true question at hand?  Is there anything outcross?  After 4 generations, the percentage of that individual is so minimal- it's unrealistic to count it in---  so does that mean that certain bulls- after a few generations-- will be outcross again?