Interesting reading on Sullivan flyer !!!!!

[sue]

I just did a search to see what champion pen of shorthrns bulls average for bw and guess what .. .. not one was reported? He competed against a group of seedstock breeders that did?  a "so called seedstock/champion breeder" that is too good to report the bare minimum... just too busy " improving" my breed  I guess. ??  Sorry I know all of you lurkers were thinking what I just wrote.  Let's see how long this last??
 

 

[thunderdownunder]

Exhibit A

 

[knabe]

I see a nested box with a little :  inside

Everyone else is outside the box

 

[vcsf]

I just did a search to see what champion pen of shorthrns bulls average for bw and guess what .. .. not one was reported? He competed against a group of seedstock breeders that did?   a "so called seedstock/champion breeder" that is too good to report the bare minimum... just too busy " improving" my breed  I guess. ??   Sorry I know all of you lurkers were thinking what I just wrote.   Let's see how long this last??
 

I am not going to defend anyone for not reporting birthweights because I do not agree with the practice.  However, I would much prefer no birthweight be reported than one that is made up or eyeballed or adjusted because the calf just nursed and is a day old so that added ten pounds which needs to be subtracted.  We all know that unfortunately these things are happening far too often (once is too often).  Also, with regards to embryo transplant calves, which these may or may not have been, I really question how reliable of predictor the calf's own birthweight is due to the large influence of the recipient cow that is totally unrelated to the calf's genetics.

With regards to your previous statement that "No real beef cattle business will tolerate calving issues at birth.. none"  I am going to have to disagree with you.  There are actually several operations that run several hundred or even into the thousands of cows that place a very low priority on calving ease.  They run big cows and expect maximum performance out of the calves and expect to have big calves and have some that need assistance but believe the payday at the end more than makes up for this.  These operations also calve the cows under close supervision and have a nearly unlimited supply of essentially no cost labor at calving time to help out.  These people will pay top dollar for high quality performance bulls and I would never consider telling them that they are not a real beef cattle business and would not recommend anyone else do so.  Now this type of operation would not work for me but it definitely works for them and who are you or I to tell them that they are wrong.  For your information I am referring to some of the Hutterite Colonies in western Canada.  It may be a somewhat unique situation but it does exist.

 

[knabe]

Hutterites use some fullblood Maines i think.

Kind of like France with zippers more common than pulled calves.

Like others, I don't see the need to say that just because "you" wouldn't do something, it's stupid.

With logic like that, it's stupid to raise cattle at all.

Might as well be in a nested box building more walls fooling yourself others are in the box and not yourself.

The hardest thing to do is not be yourself.

 

[trevorgreycattleco]

Exhibit A

RELAX. Whats the big deal? I find it odd no bw were reported. Why take the time to show a string but not report all the info. Thats weird. Maybe it was a time thing. Who really cares. It doesnt really effect me. Does it effect you tdu? Every other chat site I talk on is brutal compared to this place. Sometimes I think folks on here dont want to talk about issues and problems. They just want to kiss ass and be politically correct. nobody can take criticism anymore at least not without whining about it. Use the cattle you like and roll on. Personally I always wonder how much bs is right under our noses. Knabe its not about what I or you deem stupid. Its about not following the guidlines and rules set up by the association yet still wanting to market cattle through a ASA sponsored event? What we need IMO isfFaster growing cattle that dont mature into huge hay burners. The carcass is already there, so is the docility and the mothering ability. If we focus on good growth and dont lose what we already have then the final gains and profit to a commercial guy will be when he turns a Char bull or a Simmy bull or a angus bull on these cows or vice versa. We dont have to breed it all. This was a pretty good discussion until the fun police or the politically correct police get involved. There is no one line that works for us all. Its hard to make a gourmet meal if I cant buy the groceries I want and need. Keep breeding what you think works and let time prove us out. Its simple if you let it be. Lieing about bithdates and bw's are silly and shady. Short term gain for a long term trainwreck.

 

[trevorgreycattleco]

BTW tdu, I think the Doc Clark bull bred around 30 cows. Dont hold me to a exact number but he bred cows in one of the hottest summers on record. Just a example of a animal that held up well, did his job and then as a bonus did well in Denver. Not the end all be all but still pretty cool.

 

[r.n.reed]

I have great respect for John Sullivan.I met him early on in his Shorthorn career when I sat at his table at one of the Milestone Gala's at the old Executive Inn.I can't tell you what year but Verl's grandson played a mean violin solo and the butterscotch sundae was memorable.I told my dad as we were leaving that John would be a dominant player in a short time based on that one bit of interaction alone.I would also say that if John wanted to be a player in the commercial seedstock arena he would of tackled this thing a whole different way and would be selling 300 bulls this March instead of 30.
As an outsider looking on from a business perspective I would say that his introduction of some different bloodlines is in direct response to the market share obtained by Jake's Proud Jazz.If John develops a viable commercially orientated program I believe the genetics of that program will be drastically different than what he is presenting currently.He is smart enough to know that it would be a lot faster and cheaper than the effort it would take to create a homogeneous program by blending as well as overcoming the perception issues.
A couple more thoughts,breeding to the middle makes money for the guy who owns Leader 21,Clark,Ayatollah,Improver,Rodeo Drive,Trump, and Jake's Proud Jazz.In response to another of Gone West's thoughts,there is nothing wrong with an individuals success and profitability and it should be celebrated.History has proven that what is great for an individual does not always translate to the breeds overall success.

 

[frostback]

I just did a search to see what champion pen of shorthrns bulls average for bw and guess what .. .. not one was reported? He competed against a group of seedstock breeders that did?   a "so called seedstock/champion breeder" that is too good to report the bare minimum... just too busy " improving" my breed  I guess. ??   Sorry I know all of you lurkers were thinking what I just wrote.   Let's see how long this last??
 

So if there was the data, would you believe it, or question it? I think I know the answere already.

 

[Okotoks]

BTW tdu, I think the Doc Clark bull bred around 30 cows. Dont hold me to a exact number but he bred cows in one of the hottest summers on record. Just a example of a animal that held up well, did his job and then as a bonus did well in Denver. Not the end all be all but still pretty cool.

Here's a good video showing the Doc Clark bull(darker roan) in his class with the Champion bull Sull Traveller.
Doc Clark has an interesting pedigree, a combination of many unrelated bloodlines.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=veBVqQlpH58&feature=related


      x3823684 HFS HL RED BARON
  x3947054 PS PHA-F TH-F JG RED CLOUD
      x3891446 JG 301 FIRST LADY TU156
x3974276 PHA-F TH-F GFS RED CLOUD 7026
      3830562 WMF HUNTER 783
  x3882847 GFS COUNTESS 9101
      x3804055 MFB COUNTESS 607

      x4099063 DRC59M4
  x4099076 DRC14MK1
      4099075 DRC875VA
x4100905 DRC 244MU
      4100894 DRC 8K
  sx4100895 DRC 358K1
      4100893 DRC 8107L1

LAKESIDE DOC CLARK 918

      x3921005 PHA-F TH-F MTU CUJO 301 ET
  x3998790 MF BLUEPRINT 833
      x3865986 MF MARIGOLD PD 091
4028149 MF BLUE MOON 060
      x3950228 MF AVALANCHE 519
  x3978831 SHADYBROOK PERFECT 759
      3803354 HS PICTURE PERFECT 549 ET

      x3859260 WMF CHASE Y41
  x3940787 CFS DIVIDEND
      3859261 WMF JANET DIVIDEND 458
4028959 HUBS CFSD DOLLY 0044
      x3837214 WAUKARU HAMPTON
  x3970474 HUB'S WH D DOLLY 9581
      3799856 HUB'S DEE DOLLY 8519

 

[GONEWEST]

For full of BS

have they ever made a shorthorn plus- not from that Stockman 898 donor or a daughter?

From the constant poor rhetoric you assign to this program it is amazing that you know so little about it. Judging from the ubiquitous opinions you give on that program one would assume you were an expert on everything that goes on there.


I'm hear to create discussion- and make people think outside the box...  shame on you for being here- and shame on you for not standing up for yourself-- and striving to be different.  

You should admit that you are really here just to be a butt. You think it's funny and you get off making fun of kids who mistake the term fluent for fluid. And be ashamed for your opinion on how someone who could buy and sell you is so obviously doing everything either wrong or underhanded.

For Sue:

Show cattle are less then 5% of the total beef industry. No real beef cattle business will tolerate calving issues at birth.. none.  Sorry I just dont take advice from a show ring breeder.

However the show cattle are much more than 5% of the Shorthorn breed aren't they?? With out it, the shorthorn breed would be non existent in the US. The breed as a whole is not commercially acceptable because of it's color. There is nothing your breed can provide that can't already be found in black hided cattle.  You can debate whether that is the way it should be all day if you'd like, but there is no discussion on the fact that it IS that way. Without the show cattle industry and the infusion of Maine blood, those 80's Shorthorn Country magazines you were reading would be the last ones published. The program you so enjoy belittling keeps your association afloat because they provide exponentially more revenue than the rest of its members. Those are all facts that are not debatable. You can debate if it SHOULD be that way or not but it is FACT that it IS that way. That said, how smart is anyone who won't take advice from another who is infinitely more successful than you at any endeavor?

For r.n.:History has proven however that what is great for an individual does not always translate to the breeds overall success.


And why is that a bad thing? Because it isn't best for the collective whole? Because everyone should benefit a little rather than a few a lot?

 

[r.n.reed]

Gonewest,I don't recall saying it was a bad thing just stating the fact.

 

[GONEWEST]

Sure you did. You used the word "however" to contrast it with the previous part of the sentence stating individual success was good. The contrast to good is bad.

 

[r.n.reed]

I will correct my mistake,thank you for calling that to my attention.

 

[Okotoks]

Sure you did. You used the word "however" to contrast it with the previous part of the sentence stating individual success was good. The contrast to good is bad.

I have no problem with any program that markets their cattle and makes money, we obviously could all learn from the most successful ones. I think RN Reid also stated " I have great respect for John Sullivan". I also have a great deal of respect for him as he is obviously a master breeder.
At the same time R.N. Reid's other statement is a fact, many popular bloodlines end up not contributing to the breeds overall success. This is often due to people trying to mimic the original producer of the bloodlines by using thoughtless linebreeding- making matings that the original producer of the bloodline probably would not have done! I don't think the Sullivan program is anywhere near finished molding their product and only time will tell what the long term influence on the breed will be.

 

[illinoisfarmmom]

"Show cattle are less then 5% of the total beef industry. No real beef cattle business will tolerate calving issues at birth.. none.  Sorry I just dont take advice from a show ring breeder." from, Sue.

I have found it interesting, in the short period of time that I've followed this forum, the  people who "bash" the show cattle niche of the industry. Is this not steer planet's "THE BIG SHOW" forum???

 

[JTM]

Gonewest, one of the things you said that I disagree with. You said to Sue, "there is nothing that your breed can provide that isn't already being provided in black hided cattle". You must know you opened up a can of worms with that one ehh?  (argue) Now I realize that earlier you and Chandler were haggling me for saying that calves that do well on grass and hay will do really good on grain, and I stand by my statement, but your above statement I have to bring into question. I don't know of a breed with as much commercial "potential" as the Shorthorn breed right now. Only Angus compares to Shorthorns in marbling and choice carcasses. Add in excellent docility for feedlots on top of the marbling, tenderness, and choice carcasses. What breed can do that? Then, what breed can prove that they have these traits? Shorthorn, because they are not black. The only maternal breed with these traits that you can compare to Shorthorns are the Angus. One has docility and the other has lower birthweights. Although we are getting some good SH bulls where that is not a problem. So what would make more sense? Keep breeding Angus to Angus or cross them with a breed that will maintain or improve these traits along with hybrid vigor?

 

[Okotoks]

I have to agree with JTM on this. I had a call from Scotland yesterday from a new Shorthorn breeder looking to get some embryos. He was excited by the demand for Shorthorn bulls and explained one of the reasons for that demand. They are getting a $125.00 premium for each carcass that is half Shorthorn over their other animals. I realise that may not be relevant at the present in some markets but I think it's an indicator of things to come.  (thumbsup)

 

[hevmando]

I have heard from friends who are feedlot owners that they do not care for shorthorns due to scheduling of butchering time.  They have told me the challenge with SH is they aren't finished, aren't finished, aren't finished, then they are too fat.  When the cattle buyer may not want the cattle for 3 weeks, it is tough to know when to put them on the showlist.  Anyone else agree with this statement?  I have no opinion, just curious.  The reason we personally don't do SH is in MN you have O'Sullivan's showing them.  Tough to get around them. 

 

[Mill Iron A]

It's because shorthorns fatten like dairy cattle. Oh wait they decend from dairy cattle, they have the bone structure of dairy cattle, and there are plenty more commercial crosses available other than shorthorns.  In fact a dairy cross will act very similar but I believe char cross, hereford cross, simmental cross, limousin cross, gelbvieh cross, and maine cross would come before a shorthorn cross in the commercial world and here is why.  Besides the fact that they don't add up on the muscle end of things your association does not market very well to the commercial producer.  Why as a commercial producer would I choose a breed who has not had any progress in their e.p.d.'s for the last 20 years and it's not like their phenotype is so amazing that it makes up for lack of performance records.  You need marketing that says hey we are the safe choice, we will have vigirous calves that suck right away on good udders of sound cows that are truly easy fleshing and will sell to the stocker and put on some adg going into the feedlot feed in a reasonable amount of time and are "in demand" by feedlots and packers alike.  Contrary to public opinion though I'm not saying that angus cattle are in huge demand because they are great feeding cattle.  No they are in demand because of the marketing success of CAB and the angus association which likem or hate'm are the best marketers in the industry.