Leasing programs for club calves - for kids

[tntfarms4]

Does anyone have a sample lease program/contract to use for kids asking to lease calves?  I have had some inquiries to lease a feeder calf for 4H/FFA projects, but really don't know what to ask for in costs etc. of the calf.  at the end of the project, the calf would come back to us if a heifer or sold at the fair sale if a steer (or may come back to our farm for a fall sale).  These are families who may not have the funds to front out for a calf.  Any suggestions or samples are appreciated.

 

[obie105]

I have let a family show a couple of heifers for us we never used a contract but they were responsible for the feed and up keep. They also helped with getting the AI work done. They also paid for the show fees except for state fair. We got the heifers back at the end of the season.

 

[BTDT]

Keep in mind if the heifer is registered, the heifer will have to be transferred into the youths name, thus transferring ownership. If the heifer does not come back, it will be hard and a long legal battle, to get the heifer returned.

This practice goes on "unofficially" darn near everywhere. Most youth rules and regulations state that the youth has to own and be responsible for the daily care.  If you 100% trust the youth family to get complete ownership and possession of the heifer and then care for the heifer properly and then return the heifer, then I would venture to guess you do not need a piece of paper that states the agreement. If you do not trust the family 100%, then no piece of paper is going to make it "right".

(Contracts work much like protective orders.... looks good, but doesn't really stop a bullet.)

 

[chambero]

I've never heard of a written contract for these types of situations.  It requires a lot of trust, and if it goes bad, there isn't a piece of paper in the world that can really help you.  If you aren't dealing with someone with much money, its getting blood out of a turnip if dont want to do what is right.

Some advice :

You should be offering, not them asking.  These deals work best when you know of a good kid that just needs a little help.  People that are brazen enough to ask - steer clear.  Another win-win is if you have someone that wants to buy something cheap but can't afford what you are asking.

Heifers are much safer to do this with than steers.  Parents can greedy when they see the check in the kids name from a steer.  I've seen the mom from a divorced family keep a huge sale check because kid lived with her when daddy paid for calf/feed and did work when kid wasnt with him.

If you are looking for kid that needs help, talk to ag teachers/county agents.

Biggest risk for you is them not having enough money to feed a calf.  Most kids in tough financial situations are better off with a pg/goat/sheep.  Don't try too hard to help enable a kid to overextend themselves.

There is nothing nobler than what you are thinking of doing.  Frankly, someone doing that for me changed my life.  But there are risks.  Follow the golden rule of show calves - dont spend money or effort on one that you cant afford for it to fall over dead tomorrow.  Same deal here - you've got yo know you might hand over a calf and never see it or money again.  Rarely happens, but it can.

 

[DLD]

You should be offering, not them asking.  These deals work best when you know of a good kid that just needs a little help.  People that are brazen enough to ask - steer clear.  Another win-win is if you have someone that wants to buy something cheap but can't afford what you are asking.

Exactly.  I also agree that it's much safer with heifers than steers.  I appreciate that it can make a big difference for some kids that wouldn't be able to do it any other way, and I'm really not opposed to helping out a kid like that.  But too often it's just a way for adults to retain ownership of their cattle and still get them shown in junior shows - that's just not what any of this is s'posed to be about.

 

[Tallcool1]

I've never heard of a written contract for these types of situations.  It requires a lot of trust, and if it goes bad, there isn't a piece of paper in the world that can really help you.  If you aren't dealing with someone with much money, its getting blood out of a turnip if dont want to do what is right.

Some advice :

You should be offering, not them asking.  These deals work best when you know of a good kid that just needs a little help.  People that are brazen enough to ask - steer clear.  Another win-win is if you have someone that wants to buy something cheap but can't afford what you are asking.

Heifers are much safer to do this with than steers.  Parents can greedy when they see the check in the kids name from a steer.  I've seen the mom from a divorced family keep a huge sale check because kid lived with her when daddy paid for calf/feed and did work when kid wasnt with him.

If you are looking for kid that needs help, talk to ag teachers/county agents.

Biggest risk for you is them not having enough money to feed a calf.  Most kids in tough financial situations are better off with a pg/goat/sheep.  Don't try too hard to help enable a kid to overextend themselves.

There is nothing nobler than what you are thinking of doing.  Frankly, someone doing that for me changed my life.  But there are risks.  Follow the golden rule of show calves - dont spend money or effort on one that you cant afford for it to fall over dead tomorrow.  Same deal here - you've got yo know you might hand over a calf and never see it or money again.  Rarely happens, but it can.

As a kid, I was in a similar situation.  I had actually TWO different people that did this type of thing for me and that is where my love for show cattle came from. 

I have been trying to remember for sure, but it seems to me that when it came to the registration papers the ownership was recorded as a partnership.  That way the real owner didn't really transfer total rights.  That wasn't a trust issue as I recall.  It was so that the real owner's insurance would cover his heifers.  Again, this was 25+ years ago.

I agree with chambero on his advice.  The only thing that I would add is that you make sure you are doing this with someone that is geographically very close to you.  That way you can stop by anytime without any inconvenience.

 

[DLD]

I'm pretty sure most junior shows require heifers to be registered in only the exhibitors name.  Some breed shows may allow family ownership, but I'm not sure about that anymore.

If a contract is a must, it probably needs to read that the exhibitor purchased the heifer, but is obligated to sell it back to the breeder within a certain period of time.  If insurance is part of the deal, that prob'ly needs to be covered there as well.

It would be nice to loan out your heifers and get them fed well for several months and get them back...  Unless there are some really good paying shows involved, that leaves the exhibitor out all their feed and showing costs, so that's not really "helping them out" much.  Most of the deals I've known of either the breeder pays for feed or the exhibitor gets all or at least half interest in the first calf, or one or two good embryos, or something like that.

 

[savaged]

It would be my concern that a family that can not afford to purchase one (even a lower valued one) will also not be able to provide proper care and feeding.  It takes a lot of capital when you consider they will have to provide proper facilities (space/fans/bedding), feed program (quality base and supplements / mineral / hay), daily hair care (chute, blower, combs, products), medical (treatments, preventive care), and utilities.  Not to mention the skills & knowledge required - families well versed and good at it I would venture are not looking to lease.

We've all seen some pretty darn good calves go south, and some average ones go north based on these factors.

If you can be real close and involved, and are willing to purchase things like feed, supplements, meds, hair care products, etc. Then it might work.  I think it's taking a big risk otherwise  - IMO.

 

[RankeCattleCo]

Guy I know is doing that right now with one of his heifers. Eldest son was finished showing steers year. He had a damn good heifer born on his farm this year and there was a kid in the community who always wanted to run with the big dogs but his parents wouldn't support it. Being family friends, he called him up.. The owner pays for everything and even houses it, it's a great deal for both of them- Jr. gets a great heifer to show, and owner gets to keep tooling around with show cattle.

 

[BlkAngus]

Guy I know is doing that right now with one of his heifers. Eldest son was finished showing steers year. He had a damn good heifer born on his farm this year and there was a kid in the community who always wanted to run with the big dogs but his parents wouldn't support it. Being family friends, he called him up.. The owner pays for everything and even houses it, it's a great deal for both of them- Jr. gets a great heifer to show, and owner gets to keep tooling around with show cattle.

What does the kid get out of this?  Certainly isn't learning how to take care of the animal when all they do is show up at the show and drag it through the ring.  I hate when this happens at local 4-H/FFA shows. 

 

[BTDT]

Guy I know is doing that right now with one of his heifers. Eldest son was finished showing steers year. He had a damn good heifer born on his farm this year and there was a kid in the community who always wanted to run with the big dogs but his parents wouldn't support it. Being family friends, he called him up.. The owner pays for everything and even houses it, it's a great deal for both of them- Jr. gets a great heifer to show, and owner gets to keep tooling around with show cattle.

Lets analyze this: The guy (lets call him Fred) has lived through his son via the show ring. Now that his son is too old, he has found another kid (lets call him Sam) who "wants to run with the big dogs" but apparently doesn't have the money to run the race.  Sam's parents do not support showing or maybe doesn't support showing with the "big dogs" because they do not like what it teaches Sam. So, this "family friend" has decided to "give" Sam a heifer.  Fred cares for the heifer, feeds the heifer, grooms the heifer, houses the heifer and gets to live through Sam a few more years to either capture or recapture his youth.

Not sure where you get the idea it is a great deal for both of them.  Fred is in denial. Sam doesn't learn squat and Sam's parents opinion apparently isn't respect by Fred or Sam.  What part of ANY of that is a good deal??

(Sam is either a halter holder (HH) or a buckle bunny (BB). 

 

[chambero]

Housing the calf doesn't necessarily mean the kid doesn't take care of the calf.  Most of these types of cases I'm familiar with involving kids that really need help do involve the breeder or helper keeping calves at their barn.  In every case I've seen personally, the kids still do all the work.

 

[Cham2135]

Just cause it's at someone else's house doesn't mean they arent working with it. It's very simmilar to keep calves at a grandparents house or the neighbors. My first year showing, I kept the calf at the neighbors. They showed me what to do and it really helped me understand the proper techniques.

 

[RankeCattleCo]

Guy I know is doing that right now with one of his heifers. Eldest son was finished showing steers year. He had a damn good heifer born on his farm this year and there was a kid in the community who always wanted to run with the big dogs but his parents wouldn't support it. Being family friends, he called him up.. The owner pays for everything and even houses it, it's a great deal for both of them- Jr. gets a great heifer to show, and owner gets to keep tooling around with show cattle.

Lets analyze this: The guy (lets call him Fred) has lived through his son via the show ring. Now that his son is too old, he has found another kid (lets call him Sam) who "wants to run with the big dogs" but apparently doesn't have the money to run the race.  Sam's parents do not support showing or maybe doesn't support showing with the "big dogs" because they do not like what it teaches Sam. So, this "family friend" has decided to "give" Sam a heifer.  Fred cares for the heifer, feeds the heifer, grooms the heifer, houses the heifer and gets to live through Sam a few more years to either capture or recapture his youth.

Not sure where you get the idea it is a great deal for both of them.  Fred is in denial. Sam doesn't learn squat and Sam's parents opinion apparently isn't respect by Fred or Sam.  What part of ANY of that is a good deal??

(Sam is either a halter holder (HH) or a buckle bunny (BB).

No no no. This is me I just didn't want any flack so I went anonymously. He HOUSES the animal. I do the work associated. I just have little to no cost. I spend 18-20 hours there per week. I realize I'm not getting much out of it financially but I enjoy doing it and my parents never let me do it. Maybe I'll get some eggs down the road, who knows. He loves being around show cattle... But I'm still doing the work.

 

[RankeCattleCo]

Just cause it's at someone else's house doesn't mean they arent working with it. It's very simmilar to keep calves at a grandparents house or the neighbors. My first year showing, I kept the calf at the neighbors. They showed me what to do and it really helped me understand the proper techniques.

Exactly what I'm doing. Gearing up to show my own calf next year.

 

[savaged]

[/quote]

No no no. This is me I just didn't want any flack so I went anonymously. He HOUSES the animal. I do the work associated. I just have little to no cost. I spend 18-20 hours there per week. I realize I'm not getting much out of it financially but I enjoy doing it and my parents never let me do it. Maybe I'll get some eggs down the road, who knows. He loves being around show cattle... But I'm still doing the work.
[/quote]

Now that's the kind of kid I would help out.

 

[MCC]

We have done several different deals since we have been in business since 1976. Some deals we have sold a calf to a kid that didn't have a place to keep them and they have kept them here and been responsible for all costs and labor. Some deals they had a place to keep them (locally) but we financed the calf until they sold them interest free. As far as heifers we have sent several south. They pay for feed and do all the labor. The money they make off jackpots and selling in their premium sales at their local shows they keep as well as any awards like buckles or trophies, etc. When they are done showing them they bring them home and we make cows out of them. Only been burned once, but that one time makes you wonder why you try to help parents out. Not the kids fault!

 

[hevmando]

One thing to spell out, discuss, and understand if the calf is housed at the kids place is what responsibility occurs in case of a death of the calf.  Can avoid an uncomfortable discussion later if not talked about ahead of time.

 

[RyanChandler]

One thing to spell out, discuss, and understand if the calf is housed at the kids place is what responsibility occurs in case of a death of the calf.  Can avoid an uncomfortable discussion later if not talked about ahead of time.

This resolution would be the basis for why I would be so liberal in the lease arrangement.  I would make them pay the premium for the insurance policy in exchange for using my calf-  and they would pay for feed.  I've seen some on here say, "well that's not helping the kid out much" but my thinking - is that purchase price is over half the cost of the total project.  To me, providing the calf and reducing the total cost of their project by 50%  would be a very appealing proposition. 

 

[Will]

We have been approached multiple times by very prominate breeders for our kids to show their calves. The quality has always been a lot better than I can afford. We have never done it.  The rules say the junior exhibitor must own the project.  I feel like you are doing a disservice to both the kid and the other kids in the show who paid or raised a calf.  The JUNIOR program is for learning and has specific rules.  If you want to help a kid learn and develop a passion for the industry leave the animal in your name and let them show them at open shows.