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RyanChandler

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JTM said:
They have realized from 20+ years of their own data collection that the stabilizer breed performs similar to an F1 cross.

No, they haven't.  What they have done is found a way to convince people like you to pay a premium for their would- be feedlot bound steers.   

cbcr said:
Composite breeding strategies have been researched and developed at the US Department of Agriculture (USDA) Meat Animal Research Centre (MARC) in Nebraska.  MARC research has shown that populations of composite cows provide an efficient alternative to more complex systems of cross breeding while retaining high levels of hybrid-vigor.  Their results have shown that composite breeding offers a solution that is more effective than the traditional rotational cross-breeding systems for utilizing genetic differences between breeds to achieve and maintain optimum performance levels for economic traits on a continuing basis.

This information is referring to composite breeds such as Santa Gertrudis, Beefmaster, and Brangus, not random percentage mongrels like what's being discussed in the topic. 

 

cbcr

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Quote by XBAR

Again, more misleading information..  The information you present is referring to stable composites such as Santa Gertrudis, Beefmaster, or Brangus, not random percentage mongrels  like what's being discussed in this topic. Why the continual attempt to deceive the uninformed?  Do you not know any better yourself or are you just banking that no one calls you out on this bullshit ?

XBAR, exactly where do you get your false information?
 

RyanChandler

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bedrock said:
"Friends encourage friends to take advantage of crossbred vigor"
This is exactly right and precisely the reason for not mongrelizing your cow herd with the use of multi-cross bulls. 

 

knabe

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JTM said:
hey have realized from 20+ years of their own data collection that the stabilizer breed performs similar to an F1 cross.


how was this measured.


how was it independently validated?
 

cbcr

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Quote by XBAR

Again, more misleading information..  The information you present is referring to stable composites such as Santa Gertrudis, Beefmaster, or Brangus, not random percentage mongrels  like what's being discussed in this topic. Why the continual attempt to deceive the uninformed?  Do you not know any better yourself or are you just banking that no one calls you out on this bullshit ?

This is exactly right and precisely the reason for not mongrelizing your cow herd with the use of multi-cross bulls. 

Again, XBAR, where do you come up with your FALSE information, or is this just your delusional thoughts.
 

RyanChandler

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Direct quote from cbcr's website.  "The goal and purpose of combining breeds to create new composites is to retain heterosis (hybrid vigor) in future generations without crossbreeding and then maintain them as purebred. When a composite is created, this is done with exact percentages of each breed"


So see you do know better, you were just banking on the latter  (lol)
 

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knabe

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I think the idea of anything is to stabilize some traits of interest, breed out the hybrid vigor.


To me, the only definition of a breed is one that has hybrid vigor to give.


The rest is just bs.
 
J

JTM

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knabe said:
JTM said:
hey have realized from 20+ years of their own data collection that the stabilizer breed performs similar to an F1 cross.


how was this measured.


how was it independently validated?
I honestly don't know I am learning more and more about how they are using the data. It is a lot to put your head around. Nobody is doing what they are doing in the numbers they are doing it. Everyone that is serious in the beef industry right now should be paying attention to their feed testing and the program as a whole. It is taking things to a whole other level.
These AI bulls are being proven right before your eyes with feed intake and feed efficiency. You can't just open up any ol' catalog and pick from the latest and greatest "performance" bull and expect that kind of consistency. These bulls have proven their consistency and that is what the program is all about.
XBAR, no need to get angry. Just because something doesn't seem logical doesn't mean it's falsehood is absolute. (Read that a couple times)
 

cbcr

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We see things from both sides of the equation (dairy and beef) with our registries.  Crossbreeding has been done in the beef industry for decades but not in the dairy industry so much, which is rapidly changing.

The Milking Fleckvieh was introduced to North America about 15 years ago. Montbeliarde, Swedish Red, Norwegian Red, Red Dane, Finnish Ayrshire.  The Normande was first brought in in the latter 70's primarily for beef, but we were dairying at the time so I crossed some of our Holsteins with Normande bulls that seemed to offer more in the way of production.  I liked the crosses.

The dairy industry seems to have a lot of naysayers when it comes to crossbreeding, but yet there is plenty of proof that crosses with Fleckvieh and Montbeliarde on Holstein the resulting offspring are milking right with or outproducing their Holstein herdmates.

Their is a study that is taking place in Minnesota on the ProCross animals.  The ProCross is a 3-breed continual rotational breeding system, consisting of Holstein, Montbeliarde and the Viking Red.  There have been other studies that have been done, but this is the most comprehensive study.  The ProCross has continually shown their ability not only out produce the Holstein but have better reproductive traits, better health, last in the herd longer, and have better components.

The Viking Red can be fullblood Swedish Red and White, Finnish Ayrshire or Red Dane.  The Red Dane themselves many times are a composite of Red Dane, Holstein, Brown Swiss, Milking Shorthorn, Norwegian Red and Swedish Red.  But the Viking Red can also include Composite bulls that the genetics of the  animals of the all the breeds.

Sometimes we see bulls that are Composites with 4 - 8 breeds in varying breed percentages.  It has taken us some time to sort thru some of the pedigrees, but also sometimes what has happened is that a bull from one country was used in another country but they didn't want to recognize the original breeding of the bull.  So they would give the bull a different name along with his parentage and most of the time they would use his original registration number from the home country but call him a different breed.  It can get confusing.

These "Composite" bulls have very good proofs and are working well thru-out the world.  Here in the US, on the most recent April evaluations, their is an elite list of cows that is released.  The animals sired by Swedish Red bulls has the 3rd larges number of animals on that list right behind the Holstein and Jersey.  Swedish Red sired animals outnumber Brown Swiss, Milking Shorthorn, Guernsey and Ayrshire.  Further breakdown the "non-traditional" breed that we represent: Fleckvieh, Montbeliarde, Swedish Red and White, Norwegian Red, Finnish Ayrshire and Red Dane, make up almost 70% of the animals (excluding Holstein and Jersey).

Some of these "non-traditional" breed are allowed to be used in the Ayrshire and Milking Shorthorn breeds.  But some of the bulls they don't tell the truth about their breed makeup.  They only want to show certain breeds in the pedigree.  With these breeds using outside genetics, and again looking at the April Elite list we see that the Ayrshire has 61% crosses and the Milking Shorthorn has 87% crosses of these breeds that made the list.

What is ironic the that beef producers like crossbred cows but are of the opinion that a purebred bull needs to be used, if a "Composite bull is used he is a mongrel).  Dairy producers are taking the Holstein cow and when breeding to a "Red" breed bull are using a "Composite" bull that many times is a composite of 3 - 8 breeds.

It doesn't seem to make any difference on the opinion to beef producers on using "Composite" bulls even when their has been plenty of research done at MARC, Colleges and Universities and even at research centers in other countries.

Look at the Club Calf industry.  Aren't most of those bulls "Composites".  But how many of their REAL pedigrees are known.  How many times do you see that a Club Calf bull is sired by a certain bull, but out of a Donor female that is listed maybe as "Smiths Donor 815B" (or whatever they want to call her).  What breeds are in their makeup? or Maybe how many breeds?  What genetic defect are lurking?
 

librarian

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knabe said:
I think the idea of anything is to stabilize some traits of interest, breed out the hybrid vigor.


To me, the only definition of a breed is one that has hybrid vigor to give.


The rest is just bs.

knabe makes an excellent point.
Back to aj's ambitions, I had been thinking a program of trait fixing (what I take stabilization to mean) a strain of Shorthorn/Red Angus cross bred cattle would be a real incentive to identify and concentrate the Shorthorn genetics available that carry the traits being selected for. Same for Red Angus.
Looks like aj is using Red Angus bulls on Shorthorn cows.
So where is there a linebred herd of Shorthorn cows with perfect udders, longevity, maternal calving ease, survival oriented (attentive and protective on pasture, yet trusting of humans), disease resistant and with plenty of rumen capacity?
Same for Red Angus?
Then just save the best sons from the best cows and line bred to meet the desired percentage.
You could do flushes and clones and all that, but I think the epigenetics of range cattle are a product of natural service, maybe even in multi sire pastures with closely related bulls. The challenge is to get that herd of cows right in the first place. Wish I had 50 years and 5000 acres to work with.
And a retraction: After much thought, I think the red calf I posted as 5/8 Galloway is actually a double bred son of my Shorthorn bull, so 3/4 Shorthorn, 1/8 Galloway and 1/8 Angus. The birth date is right for the Shorthorn sire, he has almost no Galloway character and tons of Shorthorn character and the inbreeding would account for his small size and lack of spunk.
I guess lutelyse doesn't always work. Hope I have not recreated the 1950's "scotch type", but I expect that's what he will be. Oh well.
 

Medium Rare

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cbcr said:
Look at the Club Calf industry.  Aren't most of those bulls "Composites".  But how many of their REAL pedigrees are known.  How many times do you see that a Club Calf bull is sired by a certain bull, but out of a Donor female that is listed maybe as "Smiths Donor 815B" (or whatever they want to call her).  What breeds are in their makeup? or Maybe how many breeds?  What genetic defect are lurking?

I had a hard time figuring out what you were getting at here, but the last paragraph is one of the most obvious reasons for people to advocate against commercial producers using crossbred bulls. The majority of the beef industry considers the club calf world to be a joke, and for good reason.

The club calf industry is one of the most messed up units in the entire beef industry when it comes to consistency. So many breeds, extremes, and one hit wonders with such a large range of genetics clashing in ways no one can even begin to predict. It's basically a legal form of gambling for people who like to play with cows. There's nothing wrong with enjoying the game, I and many others do/did but a spade is a spade and should be called as such. For every home run there are two average and 2 duds and a bunch of heifers no one will ever figure out how to keep in the herd on a long term basis. This is the exact opposite of what the real world beef industry needs in order to put a consistent product on people plates while making a little profit for their pocket.

What is the average lifespan of a "club calf" herd?... 7 years?? It get's so bad some people end up culling 90% of their herd and are forced to go find good solid pured up real world production females from someone who has spent time actually building a product that can be depended on to go out and raise a quality calf that the beef market actually desires.
 

cbcr

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Look at the Club Calf industry.  Aren't most of those bulls "Composites".  But how many of their REAL pedigrees are known.  How many times do you see that a Club Calf bull is sired by a certain bull, but out of a Donor female that is listed maybe as "Smiths Donor 815B" (or whatever they want to call her).  What breeds are in their makeup? or Maybe how many breeds?  What genetic defect are lurking?

quote by Medium Rare
I had a hard time figuring out what you were getting at here, but the last paragraph is one of the most obvious reasons for people to advocate against commercial producers using crossbred bulls. The majority of the beef industry considers the club calf world to be a joke, and for good reason.

There is a difference.  Creating a "Composite" that combines KNOWN genetics that in doing so brings the best of the breeds and traits together in a determined breed composition and percentage.  There has been extensive research done on various composites as well.

Doing so takes thought and consideration.  Their have been some very successful "Composite" breeds that have been created.

Most of the successful "Composites" have been a 5/8x3/8 cross.

But one thing we are learning with dairy genomics is that there may be more relationship and similarities between some breeds.
 

knabe

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cbcr said:
But one thing we are learning with dairy genomics is that there may be more relationship and similarities between some breeds.


Been said many times there is as much differences within breeds than between.


Other than hair coat, a few genes here and there, really expression, I really don't see the big deal.



 

librarian

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The section "Variations on a Theme" in this book is well worth reading to put this whole breed nomenclature into perspective. Shorthorn breeders, apparently, have been the great "splitters" of groups into taxonomic subdivisions as opposed to the more geographic "lumpers" of groups into common regional phenotypes.
https://books.google.com/books?id=gXCjsQbCGr8C&lpg=PA308&dq=cattle%20breed%20species%20tribe&pg=PA309#v=onepage&q=cattle%20breed%20species%20tribe&f=false
From: Animals in Human Histories: The Mirror of Nature and Culture
By Mary J. Henninger-Voss
...somewhat humbling regarding our grand pretensions to quasi-evolutionary (or dynastic) reenactments...
I can't copy it, but the paragraph on page 310 about Darwin down to the satirical designation of Shorthorns as Bos composita pretty much nails it.
 

aj

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I'm not what Leachman is doing. One thing I ended up doing......I was breeding half sisters to half brothers. And as an added twist I had two full brother f'1s I guess that I really liked. I bred a full brothers daughter to the other full brother. This was tightning up genetics a little more.....if that makes sense. Sodhouse Lancer 606 and Sodhouse Government Mule were f1 composites and they were full brothers. So for example I may have a sodhouse Lancer daughter that was 25% Red Angus 75% Shorthorn. By breeding her back to her sires full brother......I did have a goofed up %....five eighths Shorthorn three eighths Red Angus resulting calf....which x bar argues throws type off. I would argue that because you are breeding this tightly you set type fairly effectively. I started out with one Red Angus bull. The rest was done with sons and daughters....grandsons and grandaughters. I did purchase another Red Angus as new outcross last year though.
 

HAB

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What is the average lifespan of a "club calf" herd?... 7 years?? It get's so bad some people end up culling 90% of their herd and are forced to go find good solid pured up real world production females from someone who has spent time actually building a product that can be depended on to go out and raise a quality calf that the beef market actually desires.
[/quote]

<beer>
 

RyanChandler

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aj said:
I'm not what Leachman is doing. One thing I ended up doing......I was breeding half sisters to half brothers. And as an added twist I had two full brother f'1s I guess that I really liked. I bred a full brothers daughter to the other full brother. This was tightning up genetics a little more.....if that makes sense. Sodhouse Lancer 606 and Sodhouse Government Mule were f1 composites and they were full brothers. So for example I may have a sodhouse Lancer daughter that was 25% Red Angus 75% Shorthorn. By breeding her back to her sires full brother......I did have a goofed up %....five eighths Shorthorn three eighths Red Angus resulting calf....which x bar argues throws type off. I would argue that because you are breeding this tightly you set type fairly effectively. I started out with one Red Angus bull. The rest was done with sons and daughters....grandsons and grandaughters. I did purchase another Red Angus as new outcross last year though.

606 and Govt Mule are F1 crossbreds, not composites.  The loose use of terminology I think is one of the primary causes of confusion in this topic. 

Linebreeding to an individual is an entirely different, and even better, approach to stabilizing the genetics than fixing breed percentages. Incorporating both of these approaches would create an even more homogeneous product than either does independently.  What I have contended throws type off is continuing to breed random percentages to each other with no intention of ever establishing set 'breed' percentage or standard. Breeding 1/2 bloods to 3/4 bloods to 5/8ths to 7/16ths back to 1/2 bloods like as seen with the simangus deal creates a hodgepodge, not a stabilized 'breed.'

If 5/8 3/8 is the composition you feel best suits your environment, then the best approach would be to continue to breed your 1/2 blood bulls to 3/4 blood cows.  All of the resulting offspring will be 5/8, 3/8ths.  To fix type, these first generation 5/8ths 3/8ths offspring need to be bred to other first generation 5/8th 3/8 offspring.  Then, the resulting second generation 5/8ths 3/8ths  bred to other second generation 5/8ths 3/8ths.  Following this protocol for several generations is the only way to stabilize / fix this breed composition. This is the protocol used by those who established the Brangus and Gert breeds and this stabilization process is what has been directly responsible for the tremendous amount of prepotency noted in these lines. 
 
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