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aj

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I doubt there is any interest in this but if anyone was interested in forming a Shorthorn-Red Angus composite breed...lets talk. The Shorthorn plus deal pretty much meets my needs but there may be some possibilities. Brangus, Santa Gertrudis, Chiangus is essentially the same deal. Again......I'm not blasting the Shorthorn assn. but most of there pluses are blue roans that are loaded with genetic defects.
 

jaimiediamond

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This has been done successfully with Speckle Parks.  It only would take one breeder recording everything and developing a composite that breeds true with careful selection.  Once the one breeder has got a solid product others will buy into the idea.  Luckily for your idea there are quite a few Durham Reds produced already.  It took over 20 years for the Speckle Park breed to be recognised under the animal pedigree act but dedicated breeders backed their product until it was accepted world wide. 

There will always be a place for good, solid cattle, it is creating a market for the product you are producing.
 

aj

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I have been going composite for almost 10 years. I would concede that the last thing the world needs is a new breed. You have no epd strength for one thing. You would have a differientiated product though. You could set up a breed that started clean of known genetic defects. Which may be a bad thing up front. Testing for 8 or so defects would be a pain. You would be considered a joke up front. But as I understand it the Red Angus breed started with 5 breeders originally. Really the Brangus and Sante Gertrudis programs were developed to incorporate the bos indicus sub species with the bos taurus. Combining angus and shorthorns would be a little different. In theory you should just crossbreed the two breeds in the beef production herds out in the country. But I guess I'm not convinced that Shorthorns will ever have that kind of market share in the states. If the worlds temperatures are rising the red color might be a factor that would trump black say 100 years from now. And a breed that was Angus but yet had some Shorthorn influence to it might be a bigger market share breed than the Shorthorns........and this is 100 years down the road. Kinda fun to think about.
 

knabe

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aj said:
You could set up a breed that started clean of known genetic defects. Which may be a bad thing up front. Testing for 8 or so defects would be a pain.


both wrong assumptions. 


the number of animals would be few so testing for defects is easy.


the entire herd would be free of known defects, allowing selection based on defect free phenotypic traits easier.


by selecting a few progenitor  animals, one could select for outstanding traits from diverse genetics of the same traits.


i don't know why you continue to have so little faith.


just do it.
 

aj

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knabe.....I got faith brother.....I am going to apply for a trademark-copyright name no matter what. Even if its just to merchandize shorthorn pluses. Not sure whether to go through a lawyer or legal advise dot com or what. I kinda think it will be 1,000$ deal.
 

Duncraggan

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aj said:
I have been going composite for almost 10 years. I would concede that the last thing the world needs is a new breed. You have no epd strength for one thing. You would have a differientiated product though. You could set up a breed that started clean of known genetic defects. Which may be a bad thing up front. Testing for 8 or so defects would be a pain. You would be considered a joke up front. But as I understand it the Red Angus breed started with 5 breeders originally. Really the Brangus and Sante Gertrudis programs were developed to incorporate the bos indicus sub species with the bos taurus. Combining angus and shorthorns would be a little different. In theory you should just crossbreed the two breeds in the beef production herds out in the country. But I guess I'm not convinced that Shorthorns will ever have that kind of market share in the states. If the worlds temperatures are rising the red color might be a factor that would trump black say 100 years from now. And a breed that was Angus but yet had some Shorthorn influence to it might be a bigger market share breed than the Shorthorns........and this is 100 years down the road. Kinda fun to think about.
aj, you have a point here, I think there could be a market for defect-free cattle,only problem is that they seem to be discovering new defects every few months or so. May possibly prove to be problematic in the future.
With new across breed EPD's I think that problem has been overcome.
Down here in Africa red cattle rule so that makes a lot of sense to go red in the long term, some thing about black cattle having higher rectal temperatures in the heat, don't remember the finer details.
 

aj

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Good points Duncraggans.......but I would argue that there are 5-10 genetic defects out there...maybe 15. I think once we catch up and figure them out we may be caught up on them......things will level out. There will be more show up maybe 2 a century. It is amazing to me that DS and PHA are tied so close together. Don't get me wrong........I realize genetic drift will occur in every animal.
 

Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR

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To raise a genetic free breed/composite, only not mate the carriers!
Where is the mistery?
...................
More one composite? Why? So many composites, already 70% vanished on their 8 years old.
Aberdeen Angus red coated are limited genetic bull diversity, black ones show a huge wide variety of bulls and biotypes.
Here in Brazil, on central tropical Brazil, many guys that used Aberdeen Angus red coated changed to black ones due more genetic variability of their black brothers.
Aberdeen Angus red coated semen sales are decreasing strongly here. They are not good fixers on coat color and phenotype.
 

aj

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Cabana......tell the god damn shorthorn assn to not mate carriers.....don't tell me.
 

knabe

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don't be so negative aj, especially taking the lord's name in vain, duncraggan might take some karma points off of your total.


oh wait, he only does that when pointing out your negativity, especially making jokes about it.


sense of humor in short supply.
 

Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR

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Breeders musto try to do the better for your herd/profit and for the breed future.
Mate or not mate carriers is a breeders matter, not an association matter.
Association in general are interest to get money and ask taxes, also is hardy to see an association with consensus regarding one or another selection program, they only let the breeders follow what wish.
Never will use a carrier, and if discover a carrier on my herd will cull out them.
 

aj

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The intial perception of your cattle is based on what breed is on your papers. To each there own. Say 50 years from now the youth......the leaders of the industry decide to show rabbits or alpacas or whatever....if the air comes out of the show ring deal things could change. Right now over 50% of the Shorthorn breed members are steer jocks and heifer jockeys. I get it. They got the votes. Guess thats why I have a wandering eye. They may pull the breed right down on top of itself into the hole to be covered up. Lets get it on and see whats out there in the jungle. The assc is the members.
 

Showin a Shorty

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Excuse my ignorance if this was already brought up but the Shorthorn Assoc. already has a program in place for Shorthorn x Red Angus cattle. If you are stating that you would like to start another association sorry for the confusion.

http://www.shorthorn.org/opportunities/durhamred/durhamred_opportunities.html


Shorthorn and Red Angus breeders across the United States can now look to the American Shorthorn Association for a composite breeding strategy that will capitalize on breed complimentarily and heterosis. The Durham Red Program capitalizes on the exclusive use of two great breeds – Shorthorn and Red Angus. As the only 100-percent British breed composite, a first in the industry, Durham Reds will have no continental breed influence, thus they won’t sacrifice quality grade or maternal ability.

The Durham Red Program, an innovation in the industry, will further establish Shorthorn genetics in America’s cow herd. As an alternate source for data-backed genetics, the ASA will require performance data prior to registration and utilize multi-breed EPD analysis when estimating the genetic value of an animal.

To capitalize on the composite trend and to sell more Shorthorns through commercial avenues, the Durham Red Program allows for the introduction of Shorthorn genetics to the commercial cattle industry via a hybrid with superior benefits. Once commercial cattlemen witness the benefits of Shorthorn genetics, they’ll likely realize more Shorthorn is better. Additionally, by utilizing the Shorthorn registry, the ShorthornPlus Program, and now the Durham Red Program, Shorthorn breeders can maintain Shorthorn influence in all their seedstock offerings.

Biologically the two breeds compliment each other with Shorthorn adding growth, efficient gain, leanness, and docility while Red Angus contribute low birth weight and fleshing ability. The Red Angus influence will also open many avenues to Angus-based feeder calf, grid-merchandising, and beef programs.

The Durham Red Program will further the Shorthorn cause and are predicted to be an additive to current registrations. Many Red Angus breeders have expressed interest in creating Durham Red cattle by using Shorthorn bulls on their Red Angus cows. The net result will be increased revenue to the Shorthorn Association to spend on the promotion of Shorthorn genetics and other Shorthorn related service-based programs.

The Durham Red breed composition will consist of no less than 25 percent and up to 75 percent Shorthorn blood with the remainder coming from Red Angus. The parents must be registered with the American Shorthorn Association or the Red Angus Association of America. The program does not allow for blood from a third breed or of unknown breed composition. Breeders can strive for either more Shorthorn parentage or more Red Angus parentage utilizing a multitude of crossbreeding strategies to optimize characteristics from either breed.

While the same cross could be achieved under the ShorthornPlus Program in place, the Durham Red Program will differ as performance reporting is mandatory. Red Angus EPD’s will be incorporated into the analysis of all Durham Red’s performance calculations. Durham Reds will receive a ShorthornPlus certificate in place of a Durham Red registration certificate until birth weight, calving ease score, weaning weight, yearling weight, and yearling scrotal circumference is submitted. Additionally, all Durham Reds will need to be proven TH free by test or pedigree before an official registration certificate is issued. Only after receiving this data will an official Durham Red registration certificate be issued by the ASA.
 

RyanChandler

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aj said:
Brangus, Santa Gertrudis, Chiangus is essentially the same deal.

I don't know anything about Chiangus but both Brangus and Gerts are stabilized composited. What they've done with simangus, for example, is NOT the same as what occured with the origination of Gerts or even with what the Godfather Lasater did with Beefmasters.  It is the 'stabilization' process that led to their success.  If you have intentions of arriving at a fixed percentage shorthorn/red angus composite, then I think it's a viable goal that you should definitely pursue.  If you just plan to continue to introduce random % cattle, then I think you're wasting your time as far as establishing 'a new line' is concerned as that is no more than crossbreeding and you will always retain the typical limitations of heterozygotes... most worth noting a lack of consistency and prepotency. 


Another option I would like to see more cattlemen pursue, and perhaps a more feasible option with reduced numbers, would just be to close your herd where it is and use more of a Lents philosophy retaining and using your best bull calf every year.  I think you could satisfy your goal of creating a defect free population that, after being intensely inbred, could go on to serve the purpose of being a highly prepotent outcross option for the commercial cattlemen to utilize. 


 

RyanChandler

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Showin a Shorty said:
The Durham Red breed composition will consist of no less than 25 percent and up to 75 percent Shorthorn blood with the remainder coming from Red Angus. The parents must be registered with the American Shorthorn Association or the Red Angus Association of America. The program does not allow for blood from a third breed or of unknown breed composition. Breeders can strive for either more Shorthorn parentage or more Red Angus parentage utilizing a multitude of crossbreeding strategies to optimize characteristics from either breed.

And this is where it becomes a joke-  These are random % crossbred cattle, not stable hybrids!  Untrained eyes mistakenly view the expressed exhausted heterosis in these crossbred cattle as genetic superiority. What a sham.  I think it's embarrassing for a purebred registry to endorse the perceived usefulness of crossbred seedstock.  This endorsement undermines not only the value of the purebred cattle the Association is entrusted to represent, but I feel it undermines the general purpose of a breed association altogether.   
 

cbcr

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Quote from: Showin a Shorty on Today at 08:26:04 AM

The Durham Red breed composition will consist of no less than 25 percent and up to 75 percent Shorthorn blood with the remainder coming from Red Angus. The parents must be registered with the American Shorthorn Association or the Red Angus Association of America. The program does not allow for blood from a third breed or of unknown breed composition. Breeders can strive for either more Shorthorn parentage or more Red Angus parentage utilizing a multitude of crossbreeding strategies to optimize characteristics from either breed.

Quote from XBAR

And this is where it becomes a joke-  These are random % crossbred cattle, not stable hybrids!  Untrained eyes mistakenly view the expressed exhausted heterosis in these crossbred cattle as genetic superiority. What a sham.  I think it's embarrassing for a purebred registry to endorse the perceived usefulness of crossbred seedstock.  This endorsement undermines not only the value of the purebred cattle the Association is entrusted to represent, but I feel it undermines the general purpose of a breed association altogether.
 

As a registry, this is one of the things that we have argued all along.  Composites need to have set breed percentages.  If you look at the success of the Sata Gertrudis 5/8 Red Shorthorn x 3/8 Brahman, the Brangus again, 5/8 Angus x 3/8 Brahman.

If a composite breed is stabalized at the 5/8x3/8 percentages, then you can still bring in newer genetics along the way as the Brangus breed has done.  What ALL of the breed associations have done by allowing varying percentages of breed composition was done in the name of GREED.
 

librarian

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I agree with XBAR. I think aj is proposing to stabilize a line of cattle that breed true, utilizing a carefully selected founder population. Blend a prepotent strain of Red Angus with a prepotent strain of Shorthorn and then sort for type and on and on. I have an idea that there are lines of Red Angus existing that have a foundation of practical, functional, commercially viable Shorthorn genetics. So Red Angus could be a reserve of the genetics Shorthorn breeders let slip away. Just a theory. The success of the project would seem to hinge on fidelity to the  linebred carcass and growth quality of the Shorthorn bulls involved.
 
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