New Lautner Bulls

[shortyisqueen]

But with regards to ethics of breeding cattle, breeding a carrier to a carrier isn't really any different than using a bull you know is going to throw a big calf that is going to jeopardize the cow and the calfs well being.  I'm still waiting for someone to argue that point.

With regards to 7 dead calves being worth 30k.  You can't figure it like that.  When you say that recip could have been raising a 5000 clean calf you have to assume another recip could do that so you can't say that that recip's dead calf was worth 5000. 
Here are my figures on 28 recips carrying a carrierxcarrier mating
7dead 1200x7=8400
Feed for dead cows=500x7=3500
Embryo work=3000(most likely will take multiple flushes to get 28 preg)
Dead calf=no expense for dead calf you factored that cost in by feeding the recip
Feed and depr. for live cows=600x21=12,600
Total expense=27,500

27,500/21 live calves=$1310/calf (keep in mind this is what you have them when they are born, not weaning)


So I think it is very plausible to make money by breeding a carrier to a carrier.  I would not do it just to breed a carrier to a carrier, but if you want to use a bull on a certain cow, I think that the TH risk can be one that is worth it if it is the right mating.

If you refer to my original post, the scenario I referred to was one in which 8 Carrier x Carrier Embryos were implanted (not 28!) and 7 of them turn out to be affected by PHA (PHA because Dusty referred to 'shooting a few cows' which hopefully you wouldn't have to do for TH). My point being that even if mathematical probability says you will only have 2 out of the 8 affected, in my experience, you usually don't get that lucky in agriculture. Murphy's law and all. There are more than enough 'taking a chance' scenarios in breeding cattle that it seems a little insane to gamble more than you have to. Also, no, I don't just think any recip can raise a good calf. If they weren't a decent cow to begin with, they could potentially totally ruin your investment. Good genetics are not all that is needed for a calf to turn out. I bet if you did some research and found the Recip mothers of the high-selling embryo calves from recent years, you would find that they sure weren't pretty but could put pounds on the ground.

In regards to arguing that you can breed a cow to a hard-calving bull and shrug when she dies having her calf...I really don't think that's right either. No cow has EVER died from having a calf that is too big for her on our farm and bulls are carefully considered for calving ease before anything else when we choose to put a straw of semen in a cow. Its been a long, long time since we've had a C-section either.

Breeding carriers to carries is kinda like the equivalent of running a sweat-shop in a third world country. Just because it can be done to make a little money doesn't make it right. Saying that someone must think that 'making money is bad' if they don't breed carriers is a bit like saying 'if you don't rip your employees off, you're a bad businessman.' WHAT???! There should always be a point where having morals and making money meet.

Agreed, JIT, on pretty much everything you said. The show industry, for the few cattle that are in it, has a HUGE effect on the commercial industry. Think of how many bulls will sell this spring that have, in the first generations of their pedigree, something that was shown. How many cattle don't have a show ring winner somewhere back there?

 

[Dusty]

I used 28 cows in my example because it was an easier number to show the true odds of getting dead calves.  Saying you'll get 7 out of 8 dead is like saying you'll get 7 out 8 clean.  Murphy's Law????  The reason people think that is because they don't remember the times they beat the odds, they remember when the odds beat them.  In the long run the odds hold up, trust me.  That's why they're called odds.
You mean you don't use weigh cows as recips??? huh, maybe that's my problem.  I agree it takes a good cow to raise a good calf.  Whole herd dispersions are usually a pretty good place to get good older, mature cows pretty reasonably for use as recips.

"Breeding carriers to carries is kinda like the equivalent of running a sweat-shop in a third world country." Just maybe a little bit of a stretch.  Maybe? ya think? 

Attention!
I am saying if you raise club calves to hopefully generate a little money. And as we know, the carrier bulls throw better calves than the clean ones for the most part.  Losing anyone yet??? And as a general rule, better calves will generate more revenue, to the point that it can be economically feasible to risk the occasional (ok 25% of the time) "bad deal" to raise the better calves if one so desires. Got it.  I don't want to run a sweatshop, eat small children, starve my cows, or club a baby seal. 
It's not rocket surgery people..

The point of my post a on the use or carriers to carriers is that it is no more morally wrong than using bulls commonly known to be hard calvers on females not exactly known for calving ease.  Which a large majority of club calf breeders have no problem doing.

When i refer to show cattle, i mean clubbies.  The ones that are bred pretty much for entertainment only.  Purebred cattle that are showed to me are not show cattle, they are purebreds, and the purebreds for the most part, except for most of the shorthorns, are not bred for the showring.

 

[shortyisqueen]

Sounds like rocket surgery to me...

 

[Dusty]

Rocket Surgery?

Joke...

 

[justintime]

Dusty,  I can hardly believe that you really think that what happens in the clubby industry has nothing to do with the real world and the real cattle industry. What happens at every steer and heifer show in the country greatly affects every person in the industry, whether you use your cattle for weekend fun, or you work day in and day with your cattle to provide for your family. Clubbies may have a following that consider this as entertainment, as you put it, but what happens in every show held anywhere has an impact somewhere in the beef industry as a whole. Every time, something happens in the clubbie world that hits a newspaper, we are all painted with the same brush, and most urbanites think this is the norm in the entire beef industry. The clubbie world is one of the most visible parts of the beef industry to Average Joe American, so I would suggest that you should start to think a little more about the consequences of your actions. If the average person in society today, knew that cattle with known defects were beig crossed together, simply to try to produce a possible better play thing, I am sure there would be outrage. We live in a very fickle society, one in which animals are often treated better than children. We have all seen the wild and strange actions of PETA and I have already heard reports that PETA is already looking at the beef industry and the clubbie thing in particular. IN summary, everything you do could or will affect me in some way. Just consider the public outcry in the latest beef recall created by a short video in which  downer animals were being shocked witha  stock prod in the attempt to get them up to walk to the kill floor. You may think this is a great stretch, but really it is not. Is this much worse than some of the things that are done to some critters to try an make them more competitive? All I am saying is that we all have to be careful in what we do.

I have absolutely no issue with someone trying to produce the next great calf that will sell for huge coin. I raise some clubbies myself. One of the issues I take exception with what you are saying is , that, you seem to think that it is perfectly fine to do whatever you need to do to try to make a dollar... no matter if it is illegal... or if it affects someone else adversely or if it affects the entire beef industry in some other way. Your catchy phase that you have at the bottom of your threads, basically tells me all I need to know.... you believe that anything is OK as long as you don't get caught doing it. ( ie: if you ain't cheatin', ya ain't tryin).Maybe I am from the old school which taught me that somethings are just wrong. Your position of trying to make a buck at any cost, with no regard of whether your actions and breeding decisions will affect anyone else, is something that really bothers me. I am seeing more and more of this attitude in today's society, in general, and I do not like it. Maybe this is partly why I take such exception to some of your thoughts. You seem to say in most of your posts that " as long as I get ahead, it doesn't matter how gets hurt along the way". Maybe I am reading more into what you are saying that what you actually are, but I really doubt it.

True,to many,this is just a source of recreation... or a hobby. This also applies to many who breed cattle. When I think of many of the great breeding operations in North America, many of them are in the cattle breeding business because they have made mega money some place else. If these breeders did what you are suggesting is OK in the clubbie world, they would be austerisized by the industry and sooner or later they would be gone.

I am old enough to remember some breeds taking very drastic measures to eliminate defects from their breed.  I remember the Charolais breed pulling the registration papers on all animals that were carriers of cleft palate defects. Many of the great bulls of the day, were carriers, yet they eliminated every animal that carried this defect and many breeders took a tremendous hit in their pocket book. Why did they do this? Simply because they knew that they would have much bigger problems down the road if they didn't handle this problem in the present. There are several other cases. The Hereford industry in the 50s and 60s did the same thing in regards to dwarfism. These  conditions could have been managed, just like today's defects, by careful breeding. These conditions were no more serious than today's defects. These breed associations did what they had to do, not just for their own survival, but for the general good of the beef industry. I somehow do not think we have too many breed associations today with as many guts. I agree that these defects can be managed. You are proving my point in that we have too many people who could care less about how their breeding decisions will affect anyone else. 

 

[Dusty]

Personally I think the carrier cattle have their place.  In the clubby business.  They are a necessary evil I believe if you want to be competitive.  My posts about the economics of it were to show that it can be economically feasible to breed them.  After all if you're raising clubbies as a business and you have a defect free herd,  you are probably gonna be behind when it comes to selling calves. 
As far as the clubbies affecting the whole beef industry, I can't remember when I saw anything on the news, or read anything in a major paper about a club calf negatively impacting the beef industry.  The packing industry has had enough bad press to go around.  Everyone does there own thing and the market will sort out what was the right decision as far as breeding goes.
I agree with you in that purebreds should not have genetic defects.  Purebreds are supposed to be considered "pure" stock free of things like TH and PHA.  You can't hold the club calves to the same standard.  There are anything but, pure.  If you are purebred breeder you should have voice in your breed association.  Apparently not enough people think that TH/PHA cattle should have their paper's yanked.
The word purebred anymore is a joke as far as I'm concerned.  I'll use Shorthorn for an example.  How is it I can buy a calf sired by Cunia, a fullblood Maine, and register it Shorthorn???  To me that doesn't make any sense..

 

[HVNR]

With TH being a single gene defect, why don't they just make a TH Free Heatwave Clone.....

 

[knabe]

With TH being a single gene defect, why don't they just make a TH Free Heatwave Clone.....

before i attempt to answer this question, what would have to happen for this to occur?

 

[Dusty]

With TH being a single gene defect, why don't they just make a TH Free Heatwave Clone.....

before i attempt to answer this question, what would have to happen for this to occur?

They would have to outlaw TH cattle in shows.  Do a test on the winners I guess.......

 

[knabe]

sorry, genetically done to the tissue.

 

[Jill]

With TH being a single gene defect, why don't they just make a TH Free Heatwave Clone.....

before i attempt to answer this question, what would have to happen for this to occur?

I'm guessing someone would have to pay for it.

 

[knabe]

ok, i can see it's not going the direction is was hoping. ;D

one would have to probably isolate a single cell from the donor line, we can
one would have to know what chromosome the gene is on, we do
one would have to know what gene it is, we do
one would have to have a way to target the repair.

doubling his defect free sperm won't work because it wouldn't have the female contribution.

another method might be to simply sythesize a chromosome, which has already been done for bacteria and substitute it, or large portions of it with known transposable elements or other mechanisms which recombine long stretches of dna used in bacterial cloning such as yeast artificial chromosome, bacterial artificial chromosomes etc.  i guess one would also have to figure out how to synthesize centromeres and telomeres, or at least manipulate them and add the portions one wanted. 

all of this is far more complicated than having a donor cell accept foreign dna.  in my mind, cloning isn't that big of a deal compared to targeted repair.  things in general, want to live.

i'm guessing when we figure this out, we will also be able to transplant our memories and live foreever.

in my mind, PHA and TH are a distraction, and using them doesn't cater to our greater qualities, which includes improving cattle.

DNA Repair in Germ Cells

Genetic integrity is intimately linked with DNA repair capabilities; thus, one might speculate that repair should be more robust in germ cells than in somatic cells. In general, a variety of DNA repair genes are highly expressed in the adult testis, specifically in male germ cells, as compared to adult somatic tissues. Less is known about the quantitative expression of DNA repair genes in oocytes, because it is difficult to retrieve sufficient numbers to assay at a variety of oogenic stages.

Although it is clear that male and female germ cells do possess DNA repair activities, very little information is available regarding (i) quantitative aspects of specific DNA repair pathways during oogenesis or spermatogenesis and (ii) how the nature and functions of these activities compare with those of the corresponding activities in somatic tissues (Fig. 3). However, among the tissues tested, short-patch base excision repair (see Shcherbakova Review) has been shown to be most active in spermatogenic cell types (4-6). In comparison, nucleotide excision repair appears to have limited activity in pachytene spermatocytes [primary spermatocytes in which meiotic recombination is occurring (Fig. 1)] and round spermatids [a postmeiotic cell type (Fig. 1)] as compared to somatic tissues (7). Double-strand break repair and single-strand break repair have been demonstrated in spermatogenic cell types (8). Xenopus oocytes have been a particularly helpful tool in the dissection of the base excision repair pathway (9). The majority of DNA repair studies using oogenic cell types have been indirect, and many experiments have been performed with Xenopus oocytes, but repair of base-pair mismatches and excision repair of ultraviolet (UV)-mediated damage have been studied directly to a small extent. The results suggest that mismatch repair and nucleotide excision repair function in oocytes, although the amount of activity may vary in oogenic cell types. Disruption of spermatogenesis and/or oogenesis has been noted in various DNA repair knockout mouse models, suggesting that the corresponding proteins are essential for normal gametogenesis (Fig. 4).

 

[knabe]

sunday, the question i was responding to was how do you get a TH free clone from heatwave, or any other carrier for that matter.  technology is no where near dna "repairing" germline cells, or any other cell, for that matter.

also, the reason he may be "great" can not discount the interraction of the THC gene in the heterozygous state with other genes is what makes him great.  this gene is active during development, and in mice, leads to multiple digits, ie fingers.  why these cattle don't have more dew claws, or more toes, more chestnuts etc, i don't know.

 

[HVNR]

OK, So if science would allow it and a THF Heatwave clone was created would anyone use him ?

 

[Dusty]

OK, So if science would allow it and a THF Heatwave clone was created would anyone use him ?

I think being a TH carrier is what makes heatwave what he is.  If somehow we could remove the gene that carries TH while the leaving him with the ability to pass on the positive traits associated with TH I would use him.  I think if we could do that, we would have better things to do with the technology than simply remove TH from HW.  Think about it, we could litterally build the perfect bull.....

 

[knabe]

i'm thinking before the perfect bull is made, we will be eating meat made in a petri dish made from the CHON from the atmosphere to close the cycle in the minds of progressives.

 

[Barrel Racer]

With TH being a single gene defect, why don't they just make a TH Free Heatwave Clone.....

Hi All!  I'm at home, should be working, but had to take Turbo to the vet to get his ankle x-rayed (thought he broke it last fall just had to make sure everything healed fine). 
So to answer this question.....  I feel that it can be done, there are some new technologies out there that seem to be working well.  In our sister lab a post-doc was working on making targeted mutations and was able to do so.  She was doing some prelim work with the thought of trying to make the myostatin double muscling mutation in a pig (we haven't done so yet).  So theoretically you'd need access to the cell line and the money to pay for the experiment.  It might take a little trying to get the DNA inserted due to the size of the deletion, but Dr. B thinks we should be able to do it (you could also make him homozygous black while you're doing it). 
It would be interesting to see if the TH mutation was actually the cause of the characteristics people like about the calves, or if it was somthing closely linked, in which case this experiment would tell.  I understand the hind leg setting, but can't find anything that would cause hair growth. 

Dusty-Not sure if this is where you mentioned this, but I have a picture of a double affected calf.  I'll try to find it in the lab tomorrow... basically looks like a PHA calf with twisted up legs and a large abdominal hernia.