Ohioans, Iowans - What do you think? - Non-Cattle

[J2F]

People have the power not the govt. It is in the govt best interest to keep us all divided.



What would happen in nobody voted? What if we organized new tickets? Internet is a useful tool.

Evil thrives when good men stand by and do nothing.

let us call it the common since party and invite the folks in the middle to join. NO LAWYERS or CAREER Politicians need apply <beer>

 

[hamburgman]

We can't build an economy on serving each other.  Somebody has to grow it (ag), mine it (mining, drilling), or make it into something useful (manufacturing).  Otherwise there is no actual wealth being generated.
[/quote]

The above statement is completely devoid of any economical thinking.  How many of the Asian Tiger advanced countries are resource rich?  How much of Western Europe is resource rich? Japan?  Compare those stories to resource rich countries and you start to worry about resource rich countries.  Commodities are not a great way to grow a country, way to many swings in the market, just as Argentina.

 

[ZNT]

Question

As a business man, If your government is shoving regulations, taxes and health care expenses down your throat, consumers are buying the cheap imports and not American made, and it is either adapt or go out of business what are they suppose to do?

That kind of thinking is exactly how Unions got started.  Unions got started by employers having little or no regard for their workers and their health.  Good pay, and good benefits, and a good work environment gets good employees, and these same things get them to stay.  And a good employee is worth his weight in gold.  I watch every day poor employees costing my company thousands of dollars, 365 days a year, but they will keep the poor employee, and run off the good one because they did not want to give give the good one a few thousand more, even though the poor employee wastes  up to a 100x that every year.

 

[hamburgman]

ZNT- it really is amazing how hard it can be to find good help can't it.

 

[ZNT]

ZNT- it really is amazing how hard it can be to find good help can't it.

I find myself more amazed how many people do not take pride in the work they do.  I just don't get it.  I have worked a lot of different kinds of jobs, and plenty of them were sh*t jobs, but I always worked hard, and always wanted to do a great job at it.  If I was a pooper scooper, I wanted to be the BEST pooper scooper.  Unfortunately at my current job, I do not hire people, and I do not supervise them either, so I all I can do is give good advise, and do my job the best I can.

 

[GoWyo]

We can't build an economy on serving each other.  Somebody has to grow it (ag), mine it (mining, drilling), or make it into something useful (manufacturing).  Otherwise there is no actual wealth being generated.

The above statement is completely devoid of any economical thinking.  How many of the Asian Tiger advanced countries are resource rich?  How much of Western Europe is resource rich? Japan?  Compare those stories to resource rich countries and you start to worry about resource rich countries.  Commodities are not a great way to grow a country, way to many swings in the market, just as Argentina.
[/quote]

How many times have those Asian Tiger countries completely changed their governments several times over in the last 100 years or gotten the tar beaten out of them in wars?  How many times have the USA, Canada, Russia, China, Mexico, Argentina, Brazil, Australia and other countries with large land masses and natural resource bases been invaded and conquered in the last 100 years?  With a major disruption in shipping, how long could the Asian Tiger countries sustain themselves?  How would the middle eastern countries be doing if they weren't selling oil?

 

[hamburgman]

So your long term strategy is to be and export based economy?  Don't act like resource poor countries can't fight wars effectively by taking over land quickly.  Pretty much the game plan by the Axis powers and the German Generals all knew a quick victory was their only shot.  We also shouldn't be talking over the last 100 years because the of advancements that have been made in the past 70 years.  Check history a little more and you will see that Asian countries are pretty good at sustaining themselves through lean times outside of North Korea.  Which I feel is a great example of how turning your back on the international market isn't the way to prosperity vs the Asian Tigers who have used it to become economic powers.  If you want to place the resource poor and sustain themselves card I checkmate with Great Britain.

 

[JTM]

Definitely keep the electoral system. If not, the country folks would have literally no voice at all. Ohio is a dead heat at this point. Polls are tied. My prediction is that the conservative christian sleeping giant will awaken for this election because they are fed up with Obama's extreme appointees to the supreme court, his extremist views on abortion, partial birth abortion, and letting an aborted baby who lives die. Also, the attacking of religious liberties included in Obamacare and basically saying that we cling to our guns and religion. You're darn right we cling to our guns and religion and we're better off for it!  <cowboy>

 

[GoWyo]

So your long term strategy is to be and export based economy?  Don't act like resource poor countries can't fight wars effectively by taking over land quickly.  Pretty much the game plan by the Axis powers and the German Generals all knew a quick victory was their only shot.  We also shouldn't be talking over the last 100 years because the of advancements that have been made in the past 70 years.  Check history a little more and you will see that Asian countries are pretty good at sustaining themselves through lean times outside of North Korea.  Which I feel is a great example of how turning your back on the international market isn't the way to prosperity vs the Asian Tigers who have used it to become economic powers.  If you want to place the resource poor and sustain themselves card I checkmate with Great Britain.

No.  Never said anything about taking an isolationist stance.  USA should use its intellectual capital to continue leadership in tech fields.  Tech fields take a product or data and add value to it, which means that wealth is created.  My point was that pure service industries on the other hand really don't create any new wealth or value, but more or less recirculate money that was first earned by someone growing, digging, creating or making something.  The Asian Tigers make stuff and sell it to us, which is how they add value to the raw materials they have to import.  They use cheap labor to add that value.  Your original point as I have quoted, "AMERICA'S FUTURE IS IN SERVICE AND TECHNOLOGY. Specialize, embrace these fields, and be successful."  I don't disagree with the part about the future being in technology -- that has been one of the USA's strengths for a long time.  I do disagree that there is a huge future in service industries unless there is wealth being created in more basic industries of agriculture, resource extraction, manufacturing or some other means of adding value to products that have a domestic demand as well as an export demand.  With our land and resource base, we have assets that many of the Asian countries lack, and that simple fact should make our lean times a lot less difficult than most other countries' lean times. 

As far as the Axis Powers and Germany in WWII, although they got off to a great start, they didn't win and had to reformulate their governments.  Japan thrives under our protection as do South Korea and others.  Great Britain is becoming less great all the time and France is really taking a turd with its new socialist guy.

 

[RyanChandler]

So your long term strategy is to be and export based economy?  Don't act like resource poor countries can't fight wars effectively by taking over land quickly.  Pretty much the game plan by the Axis powers and the German Generals all knew a quick victory was their only shot.  We also shouldn't be talking over the last 100 years because the of advancements that have been made in the past 70 years.  Check history a little more and you will see that Asian countries are pretty good at sustaining themselves through lean times outside of North Korea.  Which I feel is a great example of how turning your back on the international market isn't the way to prosperity vs the Asian Tigers who have used it to become economic powers.  If you want to place the resource poor and sustain themselves card I checkmate with Great Britain.

No.  Never said anything about taking an isolationist stance.  USA should use its intellectual capital to continue leadership in tech fields.  Tech fields take a product or data and add value to it, which means that wealth is created.  My point was that pure service industries on the other hand really don't create any new wealth or value, but more or less recirculate money that was first earned by someone growing, digging, creating or making something.  The Asian Tigers make stuff and sell it to us, which is how they add value to the raw materials they have to import.  They use cheap labor to add that value.  Your original point as I have quoted, "AMERICA'S FUTURE IS IN SERVICE AND TECHNOLOGY. Specialize, embrace these fields, and be successful."  I don't disagree with the part about the future being in technology -- that has been one of the USA's strengths for a long time.  I do disagree that there is a huge future in service industries unless there is wealth being created in more basic industries of agriculture, resource extraction, manufacturing or some other means of adding value to products that have a domestic demand as well as an export demand.  With our land and resource base, we have assets that many of the Asian countries lack, and that simple fact should make our lean times a lot less difficult than most other countries' lean times. 

As far as the Axis Powers and Germany in WWII, although they got off to a great start, they didn't win and had to reformulate their governments.  Japan thrives under our protection as do South Korea and others.  Great Britain is becoming less great all the time and France is really taking a turd with its new socialist guy.

I think you're getting two different posters confused. 

THE WEALTH HAS ALREADY BEEN CREATED IN THIS COUNTRY.  10 percent of the people in our country hold 74.5 percent of the wealth. Likewise, the bottom 50 percent of people have just over 1 percent of the money.

 

[RyanChandler]

Definitely keep the electoral system. If not, the country folks would have literally no voice at all. Ohio is a dead heat at this point. Polls are tied. My prediction is that the conservative christian sleeping giant will awaken for this election because they are fed up with Obama's extreme appointees to the supreme court, his extremist views on abortion, partial birth abortion, and letting an aborted baby who lives die. Also, the attacking of religious liberties included in Obamacare and basically saying that we cling to our guns and religion. You're darn right we cling to our guns and religion and we're better off for it!  <cowboy>

Who are the "country folks" ? What about 1 American, 1 Vote?  What are his extremist views on abortion? What religiolus liberties are being attacked by Obamacare?

The government should be kept out of the matter, leaving the question to each person for their conscientious consideration. 

Why it is so hard for people to realize that the support of an individual's right to make choices in life does not mean that you necessarily approve or disapprove of those choices?

 

[GoWyo]

Sorry XBAR -- I used your original point after hamburgman and I were discussing it and attributed it to him instead of you.  Anyway that is what we were discussing.  So what should we do with the 10% that hold most of the wealth, (assuming that is a correct statistic)?  Various societies have revolted and relieved some of the ruling class of their wealth, but were they any better off after the turmoil?  Some people become wealthy and then lose it just as fast as they got it -- example: lottery winners who wind up bankrupt within a few short years.  Many people are completely inept with money and will never accumulate much wealth even though they can sure burn through it.  People who are good at money management have indeed created vast amounts of personal wealth.  Wealth begets wealth, but I disagree that all the wealth has already been created.  So long as people need food, shelter and clothing there are opportunities to grow or extract raw materials and add wealth to the products along the way.  Commerce creates commerce, which ultimately creates wealth.  Government can protect opportunities to create wealth or dilute wealth.  Seems to me Obama's vision of government only dilutes it and tries to spread it around with more programs.  It hasn't worked and isn't going to work.  I think Romney will do better in this department and will be much more likely to appoint justices to the Supreme Court who will recognize 2nd Amendment and 5th Amendment rights (firearms and property rights) than the current guy.

 

[chambero]

 

Why it is so hard for people to realize that the support of an individual's right to make choices in life does not mean that you necessarily approve or disapprove of those choices?

The whole "choice" issue is so polarized because both sides think the other are completely immoral in their views when nothing could be further from the truth (for the most part anyway).  "Pro-life" people think that unborn children should be afforded the same protection that children have after they are born.  Hence the "its not a choice" slogan.  A mother doesn't have the right to kill her one year old baby, so why should she have the right to kill one 60 days after conception.

Personally, I don't think the issue should be nearly as important in elections and politicians in general as it is.  If we take care of some of the other stuff better and give young mothers some more options there would be a lot less need for abortions.

The vast majority of people want "more" in life.  Your view on politics tends to be how you get "more". Those who are more optimistic and think they can get more by achieving tend to be Republican, those who feel they have to fight to hang onto a job they have or those who feel the government has a responsibility to help them have more tend to vote Democratic.

Had an interesting discussion with our preacher last night at a football game about George McGovern being an obvious example of an election when the vast majority of the voters screwed up when they elected Nixon.  McGovern was quite liberal, but a heck of a lot better man and leader than Nixon ever thought about being.  That's my criteria when votiing for president (leadership ability) than specific philosophies because that's the one thing a president can really control.

I think Obama is way too anti-business.  I don't vehemently disagree with some of his ideas, I just don't think the country can afford them.  I also don't think he is a particularly good leader.  I think Romney has the personal qualitities to be the strongest leader we've had since Reagan.  Clinton could have been a good  leader if he'd behaved.  George W. was good in a crisis, but too polarizing the rest of the time.

 

[J2F]

Definitely keep the electoral system. If not, the country folks would have literally no voice at all. Ohio is a dead heat at this point. Polls are tied. My prediction is that the conservative christian sleeping giant will awaken for this election because they are fed up with Obama's extreme appointees to the supreme court, his extremist views on abortion, partial birth abortion, and letting an aborted baby who lives die. Also, the attacking of religious liberties included in Obamacare and basically saying that we cling to our guns and religion. You're darn right we cling to our guns and religion and we're better off for it!  <cowboy>

Who are the "country folks" ? What about 1 American, 1 Vote?  What are his extremist views on abortion? What religiolus liberties are being attacked by Obamacare?

The government should be kept out of the matter, leaving the question to each person for their conscientious consideration. 

Why it is so hard for people to realize that the support of an individual's right to make choices in life does not mean that you necessarily approve or disapprove of those choices?

And business and health care facility's have the right to decide for them selves also then. The government should not tell anyone they have to sell or provide a service that goes against their own beliefs. Make up your mind, it is all or nothing.You can't take god out of your platform and then put it back in when it serves your purpose.

 

[J2F]

*Disclaimer Political Thread - not trying to ruffle anyone's feathers, but would be nice for a perspective from people who actually live in each state.

I know we have a lot of people from both states on the forum.  I can't imagine how much you are probably be inundated with ads from both parties, especially Ohio.

What is your take on which way your state will swing?  Would you rather change to the popular vote and get rid of the electoral college?

So what is your next topic Jason? religion, gun control, using carrier bulls being detrimental the America beef, You sure know how to stir up a bee's nest!  ;D lol.

 

[RyanChandler]

Definitely keep the electoral system. If not, the country folks would have literally no voice at all. Ohio is a dead heat at this point. Polls are tied. My prediction is that the conservative christian sleeping giant will awaken for this election because they are fed up with Obama's extreme appointees to the supreme court, his extremist views on abortion, partial birth abortion, and letting an aborted baby who lives die. Also, the attacking of religious liberties included in Obamacare and basically saying that we cling to our guns and religion. You're darn right we cling to our guns and religion and we're better off for it!  <cowboy>

Who are the "country folks" ? What about 1 American, 1 Vote?  What are his extremist views on abortion? What religiolus liberties are being attacked by Obamacare?

The government should be kept out of the matter, leaving the question to each person for their conscientious consideration. 

Why it is so hard for people to realize that the support of an individual's right to make choices in life does not mean that you necessarily approve or disapprove of those choices?

And business and health care facility's have the right to decide for them selves also then. The government should not tell anyone they have to sell or provide a service that goes against their own beliefs. Make up your mind, it is all or nothing.You can't take god out of your platform and then put it back in when it serves your purpose.

What type of business and health care facilitIES are you talking about?  What services are the government telling them they have to provide?  Where was 'GOD' taken out and put back in?

 

[J2F]

Definitely keep the electoral system. If not, the country folks would have literally no voice at all. Ohio is a dead heat at this point. Polls are tied. My prediction is that the conservative christian sleeping giant will awaken for this election because they are fed up with Obama's extreme appointees to the supreme court, his extremist views on abortion, partial birth abortion, and letting an aborted baby who lives die. Also, the attacking of religious liberties included in Obamacare and basically saying that we cling to our guns and religion. You're darn right we cling to our guns and religion and we're better off for it!  <cowboy>

Who are the "country folks" ? What about 1 American, 1 Vote?  What are his extremist views on abortion? What religiolus liberties are being attacked by Obamacare?

The government should be kept out of the matter, leaving the question to each person for their conscientious consideration. 

Why it is so hard for people to realize that the support of an individual's right to make choices in life does not mean that you necessarily approve or disapprove of those choices?

And business and health care facility's have the right to decide for them selves also then. The government should not tell anyone they have to sell or provide a service that goes against their own beliefs. Make up your mind, it is all or nothing.You can't take god out of your platform and then put it back in when it serves your purpose.

What type of business and health care facilitIES are you talking about?  What services are the government telling them they have to provide?   Where was 'GOD' taken out and put back in?

Well all businesses but more specific obamacare  (trying) mandating that all health care facility have to provide the option of abortion even christian based health care facility.
As far as God taken out did you watch any news during the democratic convention?  Even the main stream media had to report on this one at least once.  .

I am not debating a women right to choose here only that the government can not take away a business right to choose either.

 

[hamburgman]

Well GoWyo you have lost me a bit.  You seem to be saying that economies will only grow if they have the raw materials available to them to grow, and if you aren't digging, cutting, or growing it you are just creating wealth with someone else's money.  I have just never seen an economics course nor any economics professor take that stance.

 

[twc77]

  Im sorry j2f, I think was requiring that even religious based health care facilties could'nt deny their employees birth control as part of health care, not abortions . dont remember reading that part. Ive never been involved with one but Im pretty sure that no insurance or country outside of china for that matter pays for that.

 

[chambero]

Well GoWyo you have lost me a bit.  You seem to be saying that economies will only grow if they have the raw materials available to them to grow, and if you aren't digging, cutting, or growing it you are just creating wealth with someone else's money.  I have just never seen an economics course nor any economics professor take that stance.

The reason the U.S. has developed into THE world power over the last 200 years starts with the natural resource base we possess - ideal agricultural land, timber resources, metal ores, coal, oil, etc.  That's the only reason Great Britain fought so hard against our independence.  The world economy has revolved around natural resources for all of human existence.  It's only the last 20-30 years that certain economies such as ours have moved more to a technology/service based.  Personally, I don't think that's a model that is sustainable long-term, at least not for a country our size.  I think its fine to shift certain types of manufacturing overseas (i.e. textiles).  Things like that would be easy to start up again if we were ever faced with massive war or other upheavals that kept us from being able to import finished products.  Heavy industry?  We have to maintain a certain level of capability in case of a "rainy day". 

We may think we have economic trouble, but its nothing like old Europe.  Why?  Because they can't feed themselves, don't really make/build anything, etc.

We will never move away from being a technology/service based economy, but you can't fuel an entire country with our size/population that way.  We can't employ our 80-100 million work force just with those types of jobs.