Ohioans, Iowans - What do you think? - Non-Cattle

[jason]

*Disclaimer Political Thread - not trying to ruffle anyone's feathers, but would be nice for a perspective from people who actually live in each state.

I know we have a lot of people from both states on the forum.  I can't imagine how much you are probably be inundated with ads from both parties, especially Ohio.

What is your take on which way your state will swing?  Would you rather change to the popular vote and get rid of the electoral college?

So what is your next topic Jason? religion, gun control, using carrier bulls being detrimental the America beef, You sure know how to stir up a bee's nest!  ;D lol.

Yeah, sorry, I knew this had a chance to take a turn, even with the preface.  I was just trying to get a feel for the residents of those 2 states.

In true parliamentary fashion, I will put a motion to lock this topic, do I have a second?

 

[ZNT]

*Disclaimer Political Thread - not trying to ruffle anyone's feathers, but would be nice for a perspective from people who actually live in each state.

I know we have a lot of people from both states on the forum.  I can't imagine how much you are probably be inundated with ads from both parties, especially Ohio.

What is your take on which way your state will swing?  Would you rather change to the popular vote and get rid of the electoral college?

So what is your next topic Jason? religion, gun control, using carrier bulls being detrimental the America beef, You sure know how to stir up a bee's nest!  ;D lol.

Yeah, sorry, I knew this had a chance to take a turn, even with the preface.  I was just trying to get a feel for the residents of those 2 states.

In true parliamentary fashion, I will put a motion to lock this topic, do I have a second?

I motion we vote. We all need to vote and be proud that we live in a democracy that allows us to, reguardless of who wins. Do I have a second?

 

[GoWyo]

Well GoWyo you have lost me a bit.  You seem to be saying that economies will only grow if they have the raw materials available to them to grow, and if you aren't digging, cutting, or growing it you are just creating wealth with someone else's money.  I have just never seen an economics course nor any economics professor take that stance.

The reason the U.S. has developed into THE world power over the last 200 years starts with the natural resource base we possess - ideal agricultural land, timber resources, metal ores, coal, oil, etc.  That's the only reason Great Britain fought so hard against our independence.  The world economy has revolved around natural resources for all of human existence.  It's only the last 20-30 years that certain economies such as ours have moved more to a technology/service based.  Personally, I don't think that's a model that is sustainable long-term, at least not for a country our size.  I think its fine to shift certain types of manufacturing overseas (i.e. textiles).  Things like that would be easy to start up again if we were ever faced with massive war or other upheavals that kept us from being able to import finished products.  Heavy industry?  We have to maintain a certain level of capability in case of a "rainy day". 

We may think we have economic trouble, but its nothing like old Europe.  Why?  Because they can't feed themselves, don't really make/build anything, etc.

We will never move away from being a technology/service based economy, but you can't fuel an entire country with our size/population that way.  We can't employ our 80-100 million work force just with those types of jobs.

Excellent point Chambero.  And to add to it, there is the factor of a government that promotes investment and stability of property.  For a prime example, look at Russia.  That country has natural resources that rival or exceed those of the USA and Canada.  However, due to their history of corruption and failure to protect property and encourage investment and production, they have only scratched the surface of their potential.  They may never get there given their problems, but they could.

 

[OH Breeder]

Second Jason


just as a side bar someone mentioned abortion

unless you have a set of ovaries and a uterus THEN .....the "Choice" is yours. Its not for me as a man to say what is right or wrong with a woman's right to choose.

 

[J2F]

  Im sorry j2f, I think was requiring that even religious based health care facilties could'nt deny their employees birth control as part of health care, not abortions . dont remember reading that part. Ive never been involved with one but Im pretty sure that no insurance or country outside of china for that matter pays for that.

i will go back and research but i was sure it was requiring alll health care facilitys to supply bc and morn after pills when reqested. Yes your right it does sound like china. If i am wrong i will apoligize if i misrepresented the issue but that is the issue as i understood it.

 

[J2F]

*Disclaimer Political Thread - not trying to ruffle anyone's feathers, but would be nice for a perspective from people who actually live in each state.

I know we have a lot of people from both states on the forum.  I can't imagine how much you are probably be inundated with ads from both parties, especially Ohio.

What is your take on which way your state will swing?  Would you rather change to the popular vote and get rid of the electoral college?

So what is your next topic Jason? religion, gun control, using carrier bulls being detrimental the America beef, You sure know how to stir up a bee's nest!  ;D lol.

Yeah, sorry, I knew this had a chance to take a turn, even with the preface.  I was just trying to get a feel for the residents of those 2 states.

In true parliamentary fashion, I will put a motion to lock this topic, do I have a second?

do what you feel you need to but these exchange of ideals is what makes this country great. in other country's one side or the other on these subjects would be dragged out in the street and killed if they voiced their opionon.

 

[ZNT]

  Im sorry j2f, I think was requiring that even religious based health care facilties could'nt deny their employees birth control as part of health care, not abortions . dont remember reading that part. Ive never been involved with one but Im pretty sure that no insurance or country outside of china for that matter pays for that.

i will go back and research but i was sure it was requiring alll health care facilitys to supply bc and morn after pills when reqested. Yes your right it does sound like china. If i am wrong i will apoligize if i misrepresented the issue but that is the issue as i understood it.

I believe the way it reads it that church's are other organizations that are against contraceptives do not have to pay for this benefit for it's employees, but the employees are allowed to pay for this coverage themselves under the policy.

 

[GONEWEST]

If you want to see why the country is in the state it's in, just look at some of the comments here. It is, after all, a free country where everyone has a right to voice their opinion, no matter how STUPID or uninformed it is.  And there are some STUPID and uninformed opinions presented here. Just like the poster who listed the anecdote about the test to see if your views matched up with liberal views or conservative ideas, many people don't know WHY they believe anything.  They are uninformed, degreed but uneducated. (for instance the spell check here that tells me that "degreed" is misspelled)

One opinion that has been set forth is that the electoral college should be done away with and is old and out of date. Does anyone know why the electoral college is in place, why the founders had an electoral college? It is because they knew at that time the general population was too UNINFORMED to be able to cast a rational vote. The electoral delegates would actually cast the votes for the people and were at that time people who were more informed about political matters and the political process. Surely that is outdated thinking since the reason people of that day were uninformed was due to the difficulty in communicating in a timely manner. Today with TV, newspapers and the instant communication of the internet that could not be an issue so why not do away with it?

Anyone see Jimmy Fallon send someone out on the streets of NY and ask people, well dressed, well spoken, apparently well educated people, a  question concerning his nomination as VP? The question was what do you think of Barrack Obama's decision to pick Paul Ryan as his running mate and do you think he picked him because he was very intelligent or because he was black? All answers indicated that they liked the pick, Some said that race had no influence in his decision, some said he picked him because he was also black and some said a little of both. ALL said they were voting for an Obama/Ryan ticket. And you are trying to tell me that everyone deserves to have an effect on the future of this country as a whole and my future precisely? PULEEEEZE

If you're clueless in the political process you shouldn't have the right to effect someone else's life. You have every right not to be informed. You have every right to live your life anyway you want, not to have my morals or ethics imposed on you, you have every right to participate in Occupy Wall Street. Apparently you have a right to effect my future no matter how stupid you are no matter how low your ethics are and if you don't ahve anything better to do with your time than pitch a tent in a city, do drugs and generally cause problems. But you should NOT have the right to effect my future if you don't even know who the vice presidential candidates are. These are sad times.

 

[GONEWEST]

  Im sorry j2f, I think was requiring that even religious based health care facilties could'nt deny their employees birth control as part of health care, not abortions . dont remember reading that part. Ive never been involved with one but Im pretty sure that no insurance or country outside of china for that matter pays for that.

i will go back and research but i was sure it was requiring alll health care facilitys to supply bc and morn after pills when reqested. Yes your right it does sound like china. If i am wrong i will apoligize if i misrepresented the issue but that is the issue as i understood it.

I believe the way it reads it that church's are other organizations that are against contraceptives do not have to pay for this benefit for it's employees, but the employees are allowed to pay for this coverage themselves under the policy.

The bill states that the INSURANCE that is provided by ANY employer must provide coverage for contraception. And since many of these Catholic institutions are SELF INSURED, they would indeed be providing contraception to their employees.

I am not Catholic, I do know that the vast majority of those that are use birth control and are in favor of it. But the problem comes in when the government, in this case the Obama administration,  is telling the Church that it MUST do something that is against its moral values. There is no way to slice that and make it right.

 

[GONEWEST]

Second Jason


just as a side bar someone mentioned abortion

unless you have a set of ovaries and a uterus THEN .....the "Choice" is yours. Its not for me as a man to say what is right or wrong with a woman's right to choose.

As a man, without ovaries and a uterus,  at what point would you say it's no longer ok for a mother to kill her child? As long as that child is inside her body it is ok but once it's out it's no longer ok? Surely there is a point somewhere that it's not ok to kill a child with everyone. It's just a different point. I was just wondering as a MAN at what point would you begin to stand up for the child and say it is not ok for you to be killed. Just wondering.

 

[nate53]

just as a side bar someone mentioned abortion

unless you have a set of ovaries and a uterus THEN .....the "Choice" is yours. Its not for me as a man to say what is right or wrong with a woman's right to choose.

I have to disagree.  Having sex was the choice.  (In most cases)
Why is it that Pro Life people are viewed as anti women's rights?  They aren't anti women's rights, they just believe in protecting innocent life,.  How did people get so brainwashed into thinking abortion is okay?  What if that baby was your kid, grandkid, niece, nephew, or better yet yourself (would it still okay to abort)?  Why are babies so important after they are born but are an option before?  People get locked up for abusing their pets but its a woman's right to have her baby killed.  Why are pro life democrats extinct?  Since 1973 it is estimated that around 50 million babies have been aborted.  That's almost a sixth of the population?

Jason:  Discussion is good!
Gonewest:  agree
   

 

[OH Breeder]

Second Jason


just as a side bar someone mentioned abortion

unless you have a set of ovaries and a uterus THEN .....the "Choice" is yours. Its not for me as a man to say what is right or wrong with a woman's right to choose.

As a man, without ovaries and a uterus,  at what point would you say it's no longer ok for a mother to kill her child? As long as that child is inside her body it is ok but once it's out it's no longer ok? Surely there is a point somewhere that it's not ok to kill a child with everyone. It's just a different point. I was just wondering as a MAN at what point would you begin to stand up for the child and say it is not ok for you to be killed. Just wondering.

Here's the deal GW.....

You already said, you can't have it both ways. I worked a short stent in a Neonatal Intensive Care. My view is somewhat different. Some of the sickest children unfortunately had some of the poorest resources. Lots of those kids were easily million dollar babies being cared for on the public dollar. NOT all but many we as taxpayers took care of. Many times born premature of under age parents with poor health care. I saw lots of 12-14 yr old girls give birth and not one of the family members was capable of taking care of themselves let alone an infant child. I also saw the product of rape and incest. I know of one woman that had not one but two children by her brother and both births were under the age of 18. NOW.....I was raised in the church and personally I believe every child has the right to life whether that be in utero or out. I do not though understand what its like to carry a child that is a product of rape or incest. I do not know what its like to carry a child that is born to die because of genetic disorders. It is an all or none deal. Either you allow abortion or you don't. So you tell me, when "IS" it okay? Where do we draw the line? I feel like I am back in my college ethics class. Jane Doe is raped and is 16 yrs old and conception is confirmed....is abortion okay? Abortion (to me) should not be a form of birth control for lazy people who are to stupid to utilize protection. There are so many resources available for free contraception its a matter of educating people to use it. But people don't want it in the schools.... kids don't have sex. so if we don't talk about it well then it won't happen. If we preach abstinence of course no one will have sex. This is not a simple problem there are no simple answers. The when does life start debate begins.........

Just as a side bar, one of the hospitals I worked in was right in the middle of an Amish community. We NEVER saw them unless it was bad I mean bad bad (water broke three days ago and labored hadn't progressed or the baby stopped moving 4 weeks prior and so on....). I saw women have children an til their uterus ruptured because each pregnancy their uterus would get thinner and thinner. There were lots of families with 12-14 kids. They do not believe in birth control and the woman's lot in life is to bear children an til they can not bear them any more or at least in this Amish community that was the generally accepted view. This was the flip side of what our society considers norm.

Now I will take my own advice in which I state previously not to discuss sex, religion or politics.

 

[GONEWEST]

I know all of those things happen.  There are very sad cases by the bunches. But I do believe that the problem of unwanted pregnancies is largely a moral one. I don't believe that I have a right to impose my morals on anyone. I also do not believe anyone has the right to impose their financial obligations on me, especially when those obligations are the result of their poor decisions. I too would be for allowances in the case of rape or incest. I believe the genesis of the problem is the moral decay of our society, the demise of the family and single parent homes. Those things lead to poverty, unsupervised children and overwhelmed parents. And while I don't believe in legislating morality (although it is against the law already to murder and steal in all 50 states) I do believe in socially standing up for things that are immoral, like the killing of unborn children. If these problems are to get any better, it is going to have to be from people who make it socially unacceptable to make these poor decisions instead of legislatures making laws. The problem is that all of these poor decisions, not only those that cause unwanted pregnancies,  are all socially acceptable in the peer groups in which they happen. In my mind, going along with that and making it "ok" in society at large is akin to giving your kid a helmet and sending him to play in the street instead of making him stay out of the street.

One thing I want to make clear is that I do not think anything negative about you in the very least. I know you to be a very good and decent person. I agree with all the bad societal problems we have that you listed. It was just that statement that if you have a uterus you  should be able to decide if you kill your child or not is what I disagree with.

 

[OH Breeder]

I know all of those things happen.  There are very sad cases by the bunches. But I do believe that the problem of unwanted pregnancies is largely a moral one. I don't believe that I have a right to impose my morals on anyone. I also do not believe anyone has the right to impose their financial obligations on me, especially when those obligations are the result of their poor decisions. I too would be for allowances in the case of rape or incest. I believe the genesis of the problem is the moral decay of our society, the demise of the family and single parent homes. Those things lead to poverty, unsupervised children and overwhelmed parents. And while I don't believe in legislating morality (although it is against the law already to murder and steal in all 50 states) I do believe in socially standing up for things that are immoral, like the killing of unborn children. If these problems are to get any better, it is going to have to be from people who make it socially unacceptable to make these poor decisions instead of legislatures making laws. The problem is that all of these poor decisions, not only those that cause unwanted pregnancies,  are all socially acceptable in the peer groups in which they happen. In my mind, going along with that and making it "ok" in society at large is akin to giving your kid a helmet and sending him to play in the street instead of making him stay out of the street.

One thing I want to make clear is that I do not think anything negative about you in the very least. I know you to be a very good and decent person. I agree with all the bad societal problems we have that you listed. It was just that statement that if you have a uterus you  should be able to decide if you kill your child or not is what I disagree with.

No offense taken. I have always known you to post thought provoking intellectual topics and replies. Well thought out and with intent.
Topics related to health care usually touch a nerve with me. I worked a while in the hospitals in different areas saw somethings that will never forget and have changed my way of thinking about alot of things. I just think its a sticky topic that will evoke many opinions and emotions in some.

Can we get a woman's point of view here?

 

[Nasc]

I think overall Ohio will go Obama,

Sometimes I hate it when I'm right.