PHA calf video

[shortyjock89]

I think it would depend on if they're identical twins or not.  If they were formed from a single embryo that split, then I think they would both have the defect.  If they each formed from a separate embryo, there is a good chance that one of the twins would not be born exhibiting the symptoms of a PHA calf.  However, the sheer size of the deformed calf might be able to potentially squash the live calf, right? I mean, these things are 200 lb+  behemoths!

 

[Show Heifer]

Carry on DL....carry on... (clapping) (clapping)

 

[TJ]

Sadly, some of the percentage Lowlines have been crossed with Shorthorn & Maine's that are "known" PHA & TH carriers.  Even a few potenial carriers have been sold at the National Sale.  I have never heard the words TH or PHA ever mentioned by a Lowline breeder & it will be a sad day when one of those percentage Lowlines has a PHA or TH calf & the owner will likely be totally clueless as to why it happened.  Without education & testing, sooner or later, it will happen & the owner is going to be awfully upset. 

 

[TJ]

BTW, thanks, DL!

 

[red]

I just want to make sure everyone understands that you are not going to get a TH or PHA calf unless you breed 2 carriers. You will have a 50% chance of a carrier if you use a non carrier to a carrier. I appreciate the video (even if I can't watch it) but I just want to make sure we've got our mables in the same bag!
Don't stop using Maines, Shorthorns or crosses because of the defect. Do your homework, talk to breeders & be aware!


Red

 

[aj]

I wonder if hs nobody's fool is considered pha clean. She goes back to paramount. Shes dead now I guess. But she has like 10,000 offspring in the show circles.

 

[red]

Certainly someone has tested her or her DNA? The horns pretty much sweep PHA under rug & ignore it. I guess I don't understand why everyone jumps on the AMMA about PHA & just lets the ASA go. At least the AMMA are looking at taking some steps in the right direction.

Red

 

[CAB]

Duly noted Red. Thank you.
  TJ, seeing that LOwlines are relatively a newer breed, why doesn't the breed asso. address the question of PHA & TH now rather than wait for it to become as wide spread as it is in the SHs & Maines. Wouldn't that just make common sense?
  Was it posted up on this board about the Durham Red's policing TH, but not policing PHA? If so, that makes no sense to me at all.

 

[shortyjock89]

Certainly someone has tested her or her DNA? The horns pretty much sweep PHA under rug & ignore it. I guess I don't understand why everyone jumps on the AMMA about PHA & just lets the ASA go. At least the AMMA are looking at taking some steps in the right direction.

Red

I think the owners are too afraid of the results.  I wonder if they cut her ear off when she died, like Steinke cut off T 90's?This is for cloning purposes, of course.  It's in a freezer at the U of I...pretty cool lol...

 

[NHR]

This video is exactly why I won't use a PHA carrier bull. I have not had one but we did have 2 TH calves a couple years ago and they are the reason I wont use TH carrier bulls.

 

[garybob]

I just want to make sure everyone understands that you are not going to get a TH or PHA calf unless you breed 2 carriers. You will have a 50% chance of a carrier if you use a non carrier to a carrier. I appreciate the video (even if I can't watch it) but I just want to make sure we've got our mables in the same bag!
Don't stop using Maines, Shorthorns or crosses because of the defect. Do your homework, talk to breeders & be aware!


Red

Or, simply stay away from Carriers, PERIOD. Quit using them. Dr. Beever created the test to ID carrier cattle, so they may be eliminated from a breeding population. This type of attitude ( which mirrors the comfort to complacency transition), has resulted in MORE carriers being created, since a "dirty" cow can be mated to a "clean" bull, with no heartbreak.

Just don't think folks understand.

GB

 

[shortyjock89]

I just want to make sure everyone understands that you are not going to get a TH or PHA calf unless you breed 2 carriers. You will have a 50% chance of a carrier if you use a non carrier to a carrier. I appreciate the video (even if I can't watch it) but I just want to make sure we've got our mables in the same bag!
Don't stop using Maines, Shorthorns or crosses because of the defect. Do your homework, talk to breeders & be aware!


Red

Or, simply stay away from Carriers, PERIOD. Quit using them. Dr. Beever created the test to ID carrier cattle, so they may be eliminated from a breeding population. This type of attitude ( which mirrors the comfort to complacency transition), has resulted in MORE carriers being created, since a "dirty" cow can be mated to a "clean" bull, with no heartbreak.

Just don't think folks understand.

GB

GB, I have a question...Won't the people that are breeding carrier cattle only hurt themselves if everyone else is aware of the situation? If these breeders of carrier cattle go and try to sell some carrier heifers, the "smart" people will stay away from them, and then the breeder will be stuck with the calves, or ship them to be eaten.  I don't think that people that breed the carriers are going to affect you or I directly..this is a problem that will end itself.  Let one of those arrogant people go ahead and breed two carriers together...if they get a PHA or TH calf, that will be the last time that they will try that little experiment.  That is, unless they are complete dullards, in which case, they are lost to us forever anyway.


Please understand that my hypothetical world here is IDEAL.  I know that it is not this simple, but it should be.

 

[garybob]

I just want to make sure everyone understands that you are not going to get a TH or PHA calf unless you breed 2 carriers. You will have a 50% chance of a carrier if you use a non carrier to a carrier. I appreciate the video (even if I can't watch it) but I just want to make sure we've got our mables in the same bag!
Don't stop using Maines, Shorthorns or crosses because of the defect. Do your homework, talk to breeders & be aware!


Red

Or, simply stay away from Carriers, PERIOD. Quit using them. Dr. Beever created the test to ID carrier cattle, so they may be eliminated from a breeding population. This type of attitude ( which mirrors the comfort to complacency transition), has resulted in MORE carriers being created, since a "dirty" cow can be mated to a "clean" bull, with no heartbreak.

Just don't think folks understand.

GB

GB, I have a question...Won't the people that are breeding carrier cattle only hurt themselves if everyone else is aware of the situation? If these breeders of carrier cattle go and try to sell some carrier heifers, the "smart" people will stay away from them, and then the breeder will be stuck with the calves, or ship them to be eaten.  I don't think that people that breed the carriers are going to affect you or I directly..this is a problem that will end itself.  Let one of those arrogant people go ahead and breed two carriers together...if they get a PHA or TH calf, that will be the last time that they will try that little experiment.  That is, unless they are complete dullards, in which case, they are lost to us forever anyway.


Please understand that my hypothetical world here is IDEAL.  I know that it is not this simple, but it should be.

Unfortuneately, it will also be the LAST TIME any of them, their family, friends, neighbors etc, will buy a Shorthorn or Maine-Anjou.
The problem will not end, it will perpetuate itself, as 50% of offspring of Carrier Dams mated to "Clean" Sires will be Carriers.
This problem willnot go away, unless a completely different mindset ..................................................................................................................................................
.........I'm gonna "shush".

I don't think it matters to people.

GB

 

[knabe]

I don't think it matters to people.
GB

this is so totally true.  neighbor that just had the TH calf, just bred the double cunia cow to irish whiskey.  i warned them about monkey mouth and creating another PHA carrier, but they basically said, at least it's a carrier and i can breed her to a clean bull.  i have my doubts they would have the offspring tested, but you never know.  they didn't have their TH carrier cow tested out of known bloodlines bred to a known carrier.

ugh

the ONLY reason i would breed a carrier, or breed a free one to a carrier, is if i thought there was something valuable other than the PHA phenotype, and it would be a fullblood.  i would not be keeping ANY carrier offspring from that mating, unless that carrier was "better" than the previous carrier, in hopes of getting clean ones to tease out any redeeming qualities from the carrier lines.  this would be an extremely small number of cattle and only an experiment, not a multiplier.  this is the only reason, in my view, of using carrier genetics.  a breeding experiment.  others i understand, don't see any merit in the carrier lines, as the junk % is too high, and don't see a downside to extinguishing those fb lines.  i'm not ready to say that yet.  i will be at some point, but not today.  i won't pass on any to anyone.

 

[SWMO]

I think that we all lose sight of the fact that it is the cow carrying the PHA calf that ultimately suffers. :'(  Yes , I hate losing any calf in the aspect of the financial loss.

  However, it is frightening that we are all losing sight of the treamendous suffering that a cow in a cold barn "with an old vet and a young farmer/rancher" is experiencing.  We have had many hard pulls in our lifetime and I have never enjoyed the suffering that we put the cow and the calf through. That is why legitimate birth weights are so important to me I don't want to harm a first calf heifer by breeding her to a bull with outrageous birthweights.  It borders on criminal not to mention being inhumane to be deliberately putting an animal in harms way if you can prevent it. And PHA can now be prevented.  At this point in science, it is needless for any cow to be having a PHA calf.

It seems to me that in having identified the PHA gene and knowing how to eliminate the problem the breed associations should be doing all in their power to get this completely under control.  What a video for PETA to get their hands on.  It would be easy to twist this issue around and talk about the lack of responsibility and self control that animal agriculture is showing and push for more governmental restraints and oversight.

 

[garybob]

I think that we all lose sight of the fact that it is the cow carrying the PHA calf that ultimately suffers. :'(  Yes , I hate losing any calf in the aspect of the financial loss.

  However, it is frightening that we are all losing sight of the treamendous suffering that a cow in a cold barn "with an old vet and a young farmer/rancher" is experiencing.  We have had many hard pulls in our lifetime and I have never enjoyed the suffering that we put the cow and the calf through. That is why legitimate birth weights are so important to me I don't want to harm a first calf heifer by breeding her to a bull with outrageous birthweights.   It borders on criminal not to mention being inhumane to be deliberately putting an animal in harms way if you can prevent it. And PHA can now be prevented.  At this point in science, it is needless for any cow to be having a PHA calf.

It seems to me that in having identified the PHA gene and knowing how to eliminate the problem the breed associations should be doing all in their power to get this completely under control.  What a video for PETA to get their hands on.  It would be easy to twist this issue around and talk about the lack of responsibility and self control that animal agriculture is showing and push for more governmental restraints and oversight.

All the more reason to stay the heck away from these monsters.
Besides, the 'stated goal' of these show-cattle ''enterprises" is for "family enjoyment'' and ''education''. If you kid can't handle being second in a class of three at a Jackpot Show....can they handle their favorite heifer dying a-tryin' to calve to one of these "Insults to Bovinity"?

Stop the  Cranial-rectal infusion!

GB

 

[itk]

TH just isn't in post legged "steer bulls" it is everywhere. Some of the most respected commercial breeders in the nation have knowingly or unknowingly used carrier genetics. Go look at a pasture of Improver 57 daughters and tell me that we need to get rid of all carrier cows or that they have no place in the industry. There are numerous THC cows that can have a tremendous commercial impact through their THF offspring. Test all of her calves and if they are THC cut the bull calves and keep the heifers that will improve your herd. If they are THF the sky is the limit. There is a fine line that can be walked with this whole genetic defect situation. IMO those who are able to get the positive traits from carrier lines in a none carrier animal will be ahead in the long run. One of the happiest days of my life was finding out that our Dream Girl donor was THF. However if she was THC it wouldn't have made her any less of a cow in our eyes because 50% of her calves would still be THF. We have several pregnancies coming out of her and Eagle 148 this spring. We feel this is an outstanding mating, and even if she would have been THC there would be at least one THF son that could do the breed a world of good. My biggest frustration with PHA and TH is the perception that it only occurs in show cattle but that couldn't be farther from the truth.

DL, I'm not going to watch your video(I can't even watch doctor shows on tv) but thank you for posting it. I think it is important to educate people on what can happen when carriers are mated to carriers. We have never had a TH or PHA calf but just the thought of what could happen is enough to prevent me from mating carriers. IMO most people who bred carriers to carrier don't think defective calves can  be that bad but hopefully now people will realize what a gruesome result is possible.

 

[DL]

DL, I'm not going to watch your video(I can't even watch doctor shows on tv) but thank you for posting it. I think it is important to educate people on what can happen when carriers are mated to carriers. We have never had a TH or PHA calf but just the thought of what could happen is enough to prevent me from mating carriers. IMO most people who bred carriers to carrier don't think defective calves can  be that bad but hopefully now people will realize what a gruesome result is possible.

itk - sounds like you wouldn't be much help in the surgery room ;D

SWMO - I was thinking exactly that as I was moving round bales this am - when does breeding a PHA carrier to a PHA carrier become a real welfare issue?

My purpose was certainly not to denigrate any specific breed - heavens I breed Maines but to encourage people to become better educated and use their brains when making breeding decisions. Just because a commercial cow doesn't have a pedigree with a known carrier in it doesn't make her clean and no once she has the PHA calf it is not necessary to test her status. I can't count the number of times I have gotten calls when people knowingly bred to a PHAC bull because they assumed the cow was clean because her sire was clean...hmmm GB I think you are right most people still don't get it.

These defects are everywhere (anybody remember chicken man?). In 2004 more than half of the top 10 sires more than half of the top 10 sires for number of Shorthorn registrations were putative carriers. In 2005, 21 of 24 black composite AI sires offered by a single vendor are tested as carriers. In a popular 2007 sire directory, one third of bulls were TH carriers, including clones and sons of a popular TH carrier club calf bull. Of the 10 most popular Shorthorn AI sires for 2006 calves, 3 were carriers for both TH and PHA and one was a carrier of TH.

aj - I don't think anyone is going to ever answer your question

zach - I agree - you don't want a defective calf but at least with TH the cow is likely to survive and thrive - but I'll tell you those TH calves born alive dragging themselves around are heartbreakers

My motto for 2008
Breed clean, if you can't breed clean breed smart,
There is really no excuse for a PHA calf

 

[red]

I tend to agree DL, especially not knowing how registrations will work for the Maines past 2009. I just read some of the comments on over boards & get the feeling that some still don't get it as far as needing 2 carriers.
I must have a really weak stomach or just not be able to handle some stuff. I too turn away from some shows like CSI when there is too much blood.

Red

 

[knabe]

I jget the feeling that some still don't get it as far as needing 2 carriers.
Red

even if you took a poll asking people that, the poll would probably be 100% understand it takes two carriers, and the other 100% that didn't respond wouldn not understand.