Potential genetic defect in Shorthorn cattle

[DL]

Am I right in that if we didn't ai, that these genetic defects would have been bred out quick.  Survival of the fittest.  However I guess the argument can be made about how can you dramtically improve your herd by outside influence of good bulls as well as cross breeding.

Kinda of scary now that we can take it to the next level and clone.  I think this is something God never attended us having a hand in (cloning).

You are sort of right 

In order for a genetic defect to rise to the level of concern there must be a certain number of abnormal calves born (this is not an exact number and likely with big ugly dead calves like PHA one would be suspicious before a more subtle defect like this hind limb abnormality we are discussing or like fawn calf in the Angus).

So in order for that certain number of calves to be born with the abnormality there must be a certain frequency of carriers - in general in cattle most genetic defects are inherited as recessives - so you must have 2 carriers mate and then there is a 25% chance with each mating that an abnormal calf will appear

However, with that mating you also have a 50% chance (risk) or getting another carrier - and the carriers are "fit" and actually in some recessive conditions (ie sickle cell anemia in people) there are advantages to the carrier state (in SSA the red cells do not survive long enough for the malaria parasites to reproduce)

So while AI didn't cause the mutations (nature did) AI does allow an individual bull to have progeny all over the country and the world (similar thinking with ET) - which would not happen with natural service - so without AI the mutations would still be there but like in the Battle of the Bull Runts it takes longer for them to raise their ugly heads and without the ability to test for mutations entire families of cattle were eliminated "to rid the breed of the defect" (aj wasn't it the Sunbeam line that was eliminated with Angus dwarfism?)

 

[Toughie]

This is veryinteresting.  Couold someone tell me what a bulldog calf looks and acts like.  We had a calf from a purchased cow that was born with no tail and a real bulldog way of walking on the back end.  Is this an indicator of PHA? She survived to about a year old and then tasted real good.  Just wondering.

 

[DL]

This is veryinteresting.  Couold someone tell me what a bulldog calf looks and acts like.  We had a calf from a purchased cow that was born with no tail and a real bulldog way of walking on the back end.  Is this an indicator of PHA? She survived to about a year old and then tasted real good.  Just wondering.

Bulldog is a term used to describe a variety of abnormalities in cattle - don't think your calf (by description) would fit those different categories

A bulldog dwarf in Dexter cattle is homozygous for the recessive mutation and the condition is lethal. Interestingly the heterozygous state is phenotypically preferred - the 1st picture is a Dexter bulldog - homozygous for the dwarf mutation

Some people call "snorter dwarfs" bulldogs - snorter dwarfs are homozygous for the mutation and are achondroplastic dwarfs - they are short with pushed in faces and pot bellies - they are called snorter because of the way the breathe - they may or may not be alive - the 2nd picture is a snorter dwarf

Some people call PHA calves (PHA = pulmonary hypoplasia with anasarca - means no lungs and fluid filled body) bulldogs - probably because of how they look - although to me they look more pig like - this condition is incompatible with life - if they are not born dead they die shortly afterwords - the 3rd picture is a PHA calf

you can see why they were all called bulldog - they are similar in looks UGH!

 

[DL]

With calving season rapidly approaching for many of us please remember if you have a Shorthorn calf with abnormalities of the distal hind limbs PLEASE take pictures, get and send samples and pedigrees - we need more samples to determine if this abnormality is genetic (or not)
do your part

Happy New Year - save an ear in your freezer​

 

[garybob]

they got very short and bulldoggy.  they were quite ugly. still, they were interesting.

So were Herefords ( especially the Polled Herefords of that era), Angus were smaller and bulldoggier than the Shorthorns of that era--or even modern Lowlines. Let's be honest here. Many United States cattlemen (especially Southern ones)  have a "beef" against Shorthorns....not based upon personal experience with these cattle, but based upon horseshit and hearsay originating from the coffee shop. Hell Fire, Knabe!

GB

 

[trevorgreycattleco]

And the only way to prove those rumors or whatevers wrong is by just putting the proof in the pudding. Most cattleman will try something if its proven to help generate more money. I like to make more money and my shorthorns are helping do just that!

 

[aj]

I had the foot of my goofball calf x-rayed when they pulled blood on them. I don't know how to read x-rays. 10 month old. This calf is looking like a dwarf.

 

[aj]

Right rear foot viewed from front. Nothing jumps out at me. The top part of photo is where my calfs foot was curved. The one vet thought maybe foot was just dislocated for a while. Another one mentioned something about a growth plate. So I don't know if this deal was anything or not. Beever should get blood in a couple days from calf and dam. Unless there was something about bone growth. I didn't do the other leg it always looked fairly normal. Probably I should have. They said it was like a 100 buck deal. Maybe this calf was a nothing.

 

[aj]

Cropped picture.

 

[aj]

more

 

[DL]

thanks aj - I am no expert and I am having experts review these films but if you look at the picture shown below the joint (MTP  joint - where the solid bone on top joins the two separate bones - the proximal phalanges) on the left is abnormally oriented compared to right side - which also does not look totally normal. The sesamoid bones also look abnormally oriented and there may be an accessory sesamoid - instead of being two next to each other per proximal phalanges they seem to be one above the other - will report the expert review when I get it

 

[knabe]

Hell Fire, Knabe!

GB

GB, the shorthorns at KSU were an inbreeding experiment, and not bred to maintain/select for an ideal type, but to see what would happen if you didn't.  maybe i'm wrong on that.

hopefully someone on here can elaborate on that.  the experiment was discontinued somewhere after 1990's some time.  i saw them around 1988 or 1989.

mike hall who ended up at cal poly and got shorthorns from tim ohlde who then purchased 5 back after poly dispersed where JPJ came from.

http://krex.k-state.edu/dspace/handle/2097/7924

http://krex.k-state.edu/dspace/handle/2097/12463

http://www.journalofdairyscience.org/article/S0022-0302%2858%2991099-3/abstract

there is probably more info on them and what they were used for and what was found out is probably available with a little effort after one knows where to look which i don't.

 

[aj]

I knew they had some kinda research going.

 

[sue]

I knew they had some kinda research going.

MSU had a hereford linebred deal going for years.

 

[KSUwildcat2009]

Dr. Miles McKee put together a history of Animal Science at K-State book a few years back.  He gave a talk about it in one of the classes I was in.  Very interesting stuff.  He's a great teacher, speaker and man.

 

[Davis Shorthorns]

Dr. Miles McKee put together a history of Animal Science at K-State book a few years back.  He gave a talk about it in one of the classes I was in.  Very interesting stuff.  He's a great teacher, speaker and man.

agreed, had the chance to have a few very good conversations with him while I was at KSU and if you want to know anything from the last 50 or so years of mid west cattle I would talk to him. 

 

[scotland]

1950 KSU Shorthrons, anyone seen this group recently? Anyon have some pics to share, curious as to what these linebred Mercury's look like

 

[DL]

Here is another picture of a Shortie calf with the distal limb defect -you can see the deformity even though the calf is bandaged

The abnormality in the x ray above (a'sj calf) is officially described by a veterinary radiologist as "congenital malformation of the distal cannon bone with subluxation of the Cannon-P1"  - that is the scientific description of what I described

 

[knabe]

That description is offensive, do you think you could tone it down dl?

If I talked to a hundred people I bet I could find someone who would say its diet related.

Hah..good job,glad there's people like you.

 

[aj]

In theory.......I repeat in theory.....if the old improver bull was a problem.....I wonder. The goofy back legs would be deformed along with the tha deformed back legs. This would be confusing as reports from the country came in. Could this defect been seen before and been confused with the th defect. Again this is a theory. Improver may be clean.