Potential genetic defect in Shorthorn cattle

[aj]

I heard of one deformed calf by an ai sire. The cow was a Angus-Shorthorn cow.

 

[bryan78]

Ive been following along and think a couple points need to be made.  First I think that testing to determine if this is a genetic issue is important.
I just which people would understand that just because a genetic line might have a genetic component that needs to be managed doesn't mean they don't have value.  I personally can not believe how many PHAC bulls are set to sell this spring.  However my favorite and most proven cows are all PHA carriers.  We have been able to retain some daughters that are PHAF and wil be able to continue their mothers assets without carrying on the genetic component that has to be managed.  Let's please not just label these cattle as useless as with the development of testing we can continue to use the positive genetic components they bring to the table.

Secondly DL I don't think you would receive near the backlash if you were more careful with the words you put to type.  I believe your heart is in the right place however the manner in which you combat people tends to put a negative taste in mine and odviously other people's mouths also.

 

[knabe]

I tried to add this to a thread where it is said that only shorthorn samples are wanted but it wouldnt let me. Anyway,, why are they only wanting shorthorns. Wouldnt you want any suspicious calves samples. Wouldnt that help rule stuff out or confirm others. Are there not Maines or Chis that may trace back to shorthorns? What about Durham reds?

The are Maines in the cow I posted.

If there any calves of any breed, it would obviously make sense to turn them in unless.......

Enter conspiracy theory to single out shorthorns, a breeder, or a bull, none of which are true.

Again, this is a good thing.  Suppose it's a real defect and you have to choose between two scenarios, one where u can't find the defect, the other where a test is developed.  Which one would u choose?  

 

[aj]

On the Durham Red issue I can really tell you in March. I turned out 2 full brothers and their daddy last summer. I bred half sisters to half brothers and all kind of combinations.

 

[DL]

I tried to add this to a thread where it is said that only shorthorn samples are wanted but it wouldnt let me. Anyway,, why are they only wanting shorthorns. Wouldnt you want any suspicious calves samples. Wouldnt that help rule stuff out or confirm others. Are there not Maines or Chis that may trace back to shorthorns? What about Durham reds?

To date the calves have been Shorthorn sired, thus it is likely that Shorthorn breeders would see the abnormalities but - if you have a calf born with distal limb defect as described please submit samples, pictures and pedigree - no matter what breed please submit samples - tx for bringing that up

bryan78 - the backlash is irrelevant to me - I have presented the facts as I know them - if people don't like the message their response is to shoot the messenger - it is deja vu all over again

 

[sue]

On the Durham Red issue I can really tell you in March. I turned out 2 full brothers and their daddy last summer. I bred half sisters to half brothers and all kind of combinations.

I totally freaked out when RA had a search party  for "marble bone". Last thing I wanted to deal with after th and pha. ... lucked out on the RA influence in our the herd.  Redhill REd angus shared alot with me and so did Beever and DL.

Bryan 78- I dont feel like any one animal is being thrown under the bus.  Most everyone posting just wants a potential marker.  On your pha comment- I have club calf buddies and they have there own way of dealing with all of this - it's different from me, but I have to respect it, cuz they are still in the ag business. We need everyone to stay in the cattle business.

 

[KSUwildcat2009]

I tried to add this to a thread where it is said that only shorthorn samples are wanted but it wouldnt let me. Anyway,, why are they only wanting shorthorns. Wouldnt you want any suspicious calves samples. Wouldnt that help rule stuff out or confirm others. Are there not Maines or Chis that may trace back to shorthorns? What about Durham reds?

The reasoning behind only wanting Shorthorn samples is because the data analysis will show breed differences as significant areas on a chromosomes, essentially giving false positives so to speak. If you want a more in depth explanation feel free to PM me.

DL is right though, if you have a calf that appears to have this problem save a sample.

 

[DL]

On the Durham Red issue I can really tell you in March. I turned out 2 full brothers and their daddy last summer. I bred half sisters to half brothers and all kind of combinations.

I totally freaked out when RA had a search party  for "marble bone". Last thing I wanted to deal with after th and pha. ... lucked out on the RA influence in our the herd.  Redhill REd angus shared alot with me and so did Beever and DL.

sue - Marble bone is an interesting recessive defect - (Calves born prematurely 10-30 days premature, typically calves are born dead, but if born alive will die within 24 hours after birth. Calves possess a short lower jaw and impacted molars. Long bones are fragile and can be broken with ease) and many times the calf is not found and a cow confirmed pg in the fall turns up open - thus it is hard to get genetic material.

Marble bone had been reported in both Red and black Angus for a long time, and the AAA lists a number of older animals confirmed as OS carriers by siring calving OS calves. We were able to obtain an ancient necropsy report of a marble bone calf by the famous pathologist Horst Liepold as well as semen from the rather ancient bull that sired the OS calf

But what I think was really cool about the marble bone deal was that Buffalo Creek (who had an ABS AI bull confirmed as an OS  carrier (osteopetrosis = marble bone; by siring dead OS calves) delayed their dispersal because they knew that by breeding to their carrier bull Romeo (BUF CRK ROMEO L081 ( 795492 OSC; maternal grandsire = BUF CRK CHF 824-1658  OSC) and his carrier relatives to their cows they had an opportunity to provide sufficient genetic material to identify the mutation. And so they did - the mutation was identified in short order

and most interesting of all the Red Angus Association of America gave an award to both Buffalo Creek (Jack and Ginnie Chase) and Dr Beever in appreciation for what they did to for the breed - imagine that 

 

[aj]

At one time there was speculation that a pha defect calf was aborted a fairly high % of the time. I heard that this made it harder to trace the pha deal cause the cow would come up open instead of carrying calf to term and exposing the defect calf and the disaster that went along with partuition.

 

[sue]

You sent me the first written article.  I just remember calling John and saying "ahhhh" .
Congrats to buff creek and beever, I dont get the RA magaizine  anymore.

 

[DL]

At one time there was speculation that a pha defect calf was aborted a fairly high % of the time. I heard that this made it harder to trace the pha deal cause the cow would come up open instead of carrying calf to term and exposing the defect calf and the disaster that went along with partuition.

I don't know about PHA affected calves but a high % of NH calves are a aborted early - can't remember the exact % but I have it written down somewhere

I think I paid $15 for the Battle of the Bull Runts

I do remember how difficult it was to get breeders (and board members) to submit the needed samples from their Draft Pick x Angus cows - the 50K SNP CHIP has eliminated the need for all those samples needed to create the informative pedigree - ah those were the days eh?

 

[bryan78]

DL the backlash is not irrelevant to you if your true goal is to help people understand the importance of submitting samples and educating all those involved about the situation.  Have you heard you catch more samples, I mean bees, with honey than vinegar.  Anyways, I appreciate what your doing I just think it would be more effective if you were careful with your tone sometimes.  

Edited after reading Knabe's post below. I figured my previous last line was the pot calling the kettle black.

 

[knabe]

really after looking back at the thread i fail to see what dl has done wrong. a word here a word there. really? even then, i fail to see the problem.

if dl is to be criticized, then, the other way works as well. people are seeking to be offended and will look for any opportunity to do so and are more predictable than a pull toy.

there is no such thing as a genetic defect and anyone who thinks otherwise is just seeking to run people down and should have their integrity questioned because good lord, they have no training and need a brain diaper.

 

[DL]

DL the backlash is not irrelevant to you if your true goal is to help people understand the importance of submitting samples and educating all those involved about the situation.  Have you heard you catch more samples, I mean bees, with honey than vinegar.  Anyways, I appreciate what your doing I just think it would be more effective if you were careful with your tone sometimes.  I just hope your not as stubborn as those people you claim "have their heads in the sand".

Bryan - the online discussion of potential genetic defects in cattle may be new to you but it is not new to me or aj, knabe or several others on sp - and every single response -every single point has been seen before (different defect same story) - the goal is to inform people - many of the people who have contacted me about this (and other defects) over the years are lurkers - they have or have had a calf with a defect - they want to know and they are willing to go the extra mile to submit samples for the gene hunt -

people who go after the messenger are not new either -  you don't have to like my tone - you don't have to like me either and whether you do is irrelevant to me - the goal is not cumbayah - when people have a calf with an abnormality they want answers and they don't care that I am not Mary Poppins nor should they

 

[knabe]

www.youtube.com/watch?v=4AdNpt-QeCQ

Sometimes this is what I think people do when a new defect is found

Imagine what's going to happen when he finds out about girls or physics.

 

[scotland]

thanks DL for the clarification

 

[aj]

I remember hearing about the Shorthorn herd that Kansas State University had back in the 50's. I was told it was pretty much a closed and no defects ever showed. I wonder if some kind of research like this needs to be done again. Maybe in a different form. As fast as the dna deal is moving along maybe it can all be done in a test tube. With a.i. and embryo transfer seems like lines get propagated in a hurry.

 

[knabe]

they got very short and bulldoggy.  they were quite ugly. still, they were interesting.

 

[chiangus]

Am I right in that if we didn't ai, that these genetic defects would have been bred out quick.  Survival of the fittest.  However I guess the argument can be made about how can you dramtically improve your herd by outside influence of good bulls as well as cross breeding.

Kinda of scary now that we can take it to the next level and clone.  I think this is something God never attended us having a hand in (cloning).

 

[Okotoks]

Am I right in that if we didn't ai, that these genetic defects would have been bred out quick.  Survival of the fittest.  However I guess the argument can be made about how can you dramtically improve your herd by outside influence of good bulls as well as cross breeding.

Kinda of scary now that we can take it to the next level and clone.  I think this is something God never attended us having a hand in (cloning).

I'm not sure we can blame AI,  if science has helped spread defects at the same time it has allowed for DNA tests which "theoretically' should help stop the spread.  "The battle of the bull runts" as AJ pointed out tells of how the defect traces to a carrier bull in Herefords from before 1900. In some horse breeds they have identified original carriers whose influence predates any AI or in breeds where they don't AI. The TH in Galloways from the 50's and 60's was eliminated by doing test matings of bulls on his daughters. That's way more time consuming and expensive than sending in samples.