Potential genetic defect in Shorthorn cattle

[caledon101]

AJ....you make a good point. The breeds with open herd books such as Simmental could certainly take on these fatal defect genes if they wanted too. I can't speak for others but something tells me they would reject the attempt to do so if they were aware. Perhaps the answer is embedded in their defect gene policy? It's an interesting question.

I remain convinced that if these defect genes had no value to the show ring no one would be Argung to keep them. No one would care about preserving them. People want to keep these defect genes because they believe it makes them more competitive in the show ring which means more money in the sale ring. Full stop.
3.5 year average lifespan of a breeder?? If so, for a 150 year old breed/brand that's nothing more than dropping by for a cup of coffee.

 

[caledon101]

MR.....are you suggesting that all future carriers be relegated to the Plus registry? It has some interesting aspects.

 

[aj]

I like medium rare's idea.......except would it require mandatory testing? You might have people just not testing cattle so the woudn't be thrown in the Shorthorn plus catagory. Could it be kinda like the Red Angus Assc proccess of the 1A.....1b designations? In order to reach the 1a designation one would have to test for all major defects.....it would be a one time cost......the clean cattle would recieve the 1a marking. Some of the people claim that the beef cattle industry has a new defect show up every year.......I think that is bogus. I think that all these defects have been around and are just now been found. I don't think another defect will show up now.......unless say a Red Angus deal like marble bone bleeds over into the Simmental or Shorthorn breed. What is say the BIF's stance on defects?

 

[cbcr]

With continuing advancements in DNA technology, it should be understood that recognizing new genetic abnormalities will continue that will affect all species of livestock.  It is how breed associations and groups wish to adapt to the knowledge of genetic defects that will impact a particular breed(s).

Many wish to take drastic action by culling and eliminating all animals for breeding in seedstock herds and breeds.  What happens when new discoveries are made?  Many times the discovered defective genes can be identified to being in a single or a few bloodlines.

Sometimes identified carriers are from foundation bloodlines that were a vital part of the development and building of a breed.  It is also a fact that some these foundation animals have questionable or unknown heritage, but were used by breeders at the time because they fit the phenotype that was sought or other characteristics that were deemed desirable.

If all genetic carriers were removed from breeding every time a new genetic defect is discovered, what are the possibilities of a breed surviving?  Breeds have a need for all bloodlines to provide the continuance of genetic diversity to the breed.  If carriers with genetic defects are removed, the undesirable gene along with traits that are desirable and valuable would be removed as well.  The “polled” gene at one time was considered an undesirable trait by some of the breeds.

Newer technological advancements in testing for undesirable traits continue to improve as does our knowledge of these conditions.  Breed organizations and Producers need to embrace these technologies and the science behind them to make careful decisions on how to proceed and what impact that it can have not only to other seedstock producers, but also to commercial producers and the industry.

Almost all breed associations have two groups, the “show ring” group and the performance “non-show ring” group.  One thing that has to happen is that ALL groups in all facets must come together in an agreement with a unified voice concerning genetic conditions.  All segments should work together to decrease and eliminate the demand for animals that have genetic conditions.

 

[knabe]

One thing that has to happen is that ALL groups in all facets must come together in an agreement with a unified voice concerning genetic conditions.

why. why shouldn't we come together in an agreement on every issue? if everyone is thinking alike, no one is thinking.  this constant lust to bring everyone together is the foundation of tyranny, phony religion, tribute and acting in secret, and forming a police state to seek out those who act in secret and put them on display for blasphemy.


the one's who constantly advocate for group think should be forced to join an organization they disagree with.

 

[aj]

The polled condition is not a lethal genetic defect. Commercial cattle people prefer the polled condition. The pha deal kills calves AND cows and creates abortions. Th kills calves.

 

[Medium Rare]

MR.....are you suggesting that all future carriers be relegated to the Plus registry? It has some interesting aspects.

Yes, all known carriers as of whatever date they settle on. It's probably too drastic for some, but the suggestion would allow both sides to settle into a happy medium that avoids the point aj brought up.

I like medium rare's idea.......except would it require mandatory testing?

I'm sure sorting calves through mandatory testing wouldn't go over very well. Perhaps settle at mandatory testing for bulls and donors, or being free via parentage, and let the cows sort themselves out over time. The breed wouldn't be able to claim "defect free" in this scenario, but it's a step in the right direction.

The plan allows all frozen and current genetics to be retained through future defect discoveries while giving the association the ability to claim they're cleansing the breed.

 

[caledon101]

I agree that there are essentially two factions......show ring and non-show ring. However, it's not all black and white. When investing in Shorthorns many years ago I knew full well that my chances of having success selling breeding Bulls to the commercial sector for a fair price or selling steer calves for a premium would be very limited. We were show ring focused but that didn't change our thinking on how defect genes issues should be managed by our association.

What I don't agree with is confusing problems with opportunities. A problem is a problem and defect genes are, long term, a problem that requires a solution. There are no serious opportunities here.
I have read countless opinions, which I respect, on this subject and it's amazing how many ways people can devise to justify propagating known fatal genetics.
The herd book is open. This has many benefits. But it also means the door remains open to import more/different yet undiscovered defect genes from any and all bovine genetics. The associations have essentially discharged themselves from taking decisive action. They seem to expect the rank and file members and breeders to sort it all out on their own. Perhaps it will indeed all work out on its own.
Are there any other breed associations applying the same methodology?

 

[knabe]

I remain convinced that if these defect genes had no value to the show ring no one would be Argung to keep them.

so do the people that use them.

 

[librarian]

Where will the records for all the clean progeny of carrier animals go once they are denied registration?
It would be handy if a database was created for the records of the Illegitimate Shorthorns since their carrier sires would be in the ASA but the clean, totally useful and genetically sound reject generation won't have searchable records. Then the commercial buyers who don't care about registration anyway can still research the ancestry.
Just trying to think ahead to the day when the Association has cleaned up its image and all those good rejects will be out there at commercial prices.
Can purebred stuff go into CBCR?

 

[aj]

I think in alot of ways the genetic defect deal doesn't matter in the Shorthorn breed. Seems like the last 10 shorthorn sale catalogs I've gotten listed 80 head of cattle for sale and not one birth weight. I guess the good news is at least they are not lying to the industry. epds are listed........and we all know how valuable they are in the breed. It almost seems like it is not worth the effort to try and do the right thing in the breed anymore. It will be interesting to see the industry and breed makeup 100 years from now. There is no doubt in my my the Shorthorn breed will be there......as a showring breed. They will rival the alpaca's as far as being successful......not relevent......but successful.

 

[cbcr]

by librarian:
Where will the records for all the clean progeny of carrier animals go once they are denied registration?
It would be handy if a database was created for the records of the Illegitimate Shorthorns since their carrier sires would be in the ASA but the clean, totally useful and genetically sound reject generation won't have searchable records. Then the commercial buyers who don't care about registration anyway can still research the ancestry.
Just trying to think ahead to the day when the Association has cleaned up its image and all those good rejects will be out there at commercial prices.
Can purebred stuff go into CBCR?

Yes, we accept purebred animals!  "The Composite Beef Cattle Registry offers an affordable and efficient system to register cattle of any breed or combination of breeds. We also register cattle that do not qualify for registration in a registry due to percentage of blood, the breed crosses, or the breed herdbook is closed or there is no registry." 

We are working toward having the ability to search pedigrees and information online. 

 

[knabe]

They will rival the alpaca's as far as being successful......not relevent......but successful.

that's because there are too many people like you sitting around and complaining and not creating.

you are the biggest detriment to the shorthorn breed.

your continual bashing, crossbreeding has done nothing other than waste money calling commercial cattle registered.

get off your lazy duff and do something positive.

you don't need to pray for anyone else except yourself.

all you do all day is sit on the pot and crap.  get off the pot and do something.

go pick some cattle, start breeding, stop wasting money and genetic tests on your commercial garbage and create something the breed needs.

the only association you deserve to belong to is the "do nothing association".  you should be their next president.

you are a waste of air and bytes.

i gotta say, you do more to keep association numbers down than probably everyone else combined.

 

[aj]

Right out of the handbook......knabe. Discredit and demonize the opponet. Followed by character assination. excellent. One way to win a debate.....muddy the water. Bless your heart.

 

[caledon101]

It is the personal attacks that keeps many people from participating in some of the very interesting topics posted here. Unfortunate to see such intolerance and bad behavior projected while hiding behind the anonymity of the internet.

 

[knabe]

Right out of the handbook......knabe. Discredit and demonize the opponet. Followed by character assination. excellent. One way to win a debate.....muddy the water. Bless your heart.

AJ, I'm not demonizing you.  all the comments are true. you have the most personal attacks. the only person demonizing you is yourself. the only one assenting your character is yourself with your complaining and doing nothing.  pointing this out is not a character assassination, discrediting, or demonizing.
I guess pointing this out and asking you to do something about it such as getting off your butt and doing something about it instead of a personal attack of those you disagrees with is a personal attack.

Aj you are a hypocrite.

you do nothing but complain.

Defending those people you attack I guess is a personal attack.

the easy way to stop the personal attacks is for you to stop attacking people who use carrier cattle, produce something of your own, start your own breed made up of commercial cattle and stop pretending your problems are due to everyone else except you.

we all know of course you will never stop the personal attacks against carrier cattle and the people who use them, you will never produce something of your own that will supplant the carrier genetics and we all know you will never create anything other than commercial cattle.


these are all obvious and not personal in any way whatsoever. the only thing that is personal is you continually attacking people who use carrier cattle.

 

[knabe]

It is the personal attacks that keeps many people from participating in some of the very interesting topics posted here. Unfortunate to see such intolerance and bad behavior projected while hiding behind the anonymity of the internet.

AJ criticizes people who use carrier cattle, AJ used them, marketed them, and produces nothing to replace them.


AJ's words and actions are those of intolerance, especially those of trying to be intolerant to registering carrier cattle and their use. 

pointing out intolerance is not intolerance. you have it backwards.


it is correct to say that i am intolerant of intolerance.

 

[aj]

Fuck you knabe.

 

[knabe]

I know aj, it's ok. The truth hurts.

See, below is a link to the eventual testing that will be available. Your continual criticism of people who use th carriers is short sighted. There will be so many defects that breeding around them and outpacing the spontaneous creation will be difficult to keep up with. Thank you for your continual and vigorous effort to keep this a personal issue. Thank you for your continual tolerance of your opinion, but no one else's. 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/science/science-news/11948303/Blood-test-allows-couples-to-screen-out-abnormalities.html

 

[aj]

knabe.....I admire your effort of character assasination. I have a web site. I have a facebook page page for my herd and for myself. Have registered 600 calves over the years......was a Kansas Shorthorn Director for 6 years. You have successfully beat me to death on here. You have never registered a Shorthorn calf. You have never been envolved with production agriculture. You constantly try to destroy anyone that comes out against propagating lethal genetic defects. You are a crusader for genetic defects.....and I don't begin to understand that point of view. But......keep up the good work. You keep this thread alive.You are the man. You have taken the opposition of freedom of speech to a new level. I have to admire you. You light up my life. Keep up the good work. You are a bitter little man.....of immense intellect just like Gore Vidal. I wish you a long and prosperous life.