Potential genetic defect in Shorthorn cattle

[shortyjock89]

There is little to no demand for Shorthorn cattle selected wholly on numbers and perceived commercial traits in the Midwest. I like the people, and can appreciate what they do for the breed in terms of documentation and the pursuit of commercial acceptability, but their cattle can't do the things me and many of my colleagues need them to do.

 

[Doc]

DS is not something that's super clear yet, as far as advantageous phenotype goes. Shorthorn steer guys have mostly gone away from the Double Vision type to the JPJ type. Is Starburst a DS carrier?

Yes Justin he is. He's free on the other two.

 

[shortyjock89]

Then I'd say DS is more prevalent in the steer side these days. Some guys like Schrag are probably making some defect free steers that win. Stropes fantastic steer this year came from Cory and I don't think he's from those sorts of genetics.

 

[caledon101]

There is little to no demand for Shorthorn cattle selected wholly on numbers and perceived commercial traits in the Midwest. I like the people, and can appreciate what they do for the breed in terms of documentation and the pursuit of commercial acceptability, but their cattle can't do the things me and many of my colleagues need them to do.

Interesting comment OFS and I agree.  We experienced a similar situation in my own area. There may indeed be geographical areas in which the commercial industry supports the Shorthorn breed but not around here. We sent good quality, easy fleshing stockers to market every year and have always been discounted. And, the commercial man doesn't want the bulls either; at least not for a fair, realistic price that reflects the true cost of production.
Perhaps in the future we will see more specialization within all breeds as opposed to a focus on trying to be all things to all parts of the beef industry? The dairy industry certainly sees it that way.

I could never understand why our Ontario provincial association was focused on spending time trying to gain the acceptance of the commercial man. The subject always seemed to come up at our annual meetings.
The commercial man won't support the breed; maybe in other provinces but not around here.
If my goal in the purebred industry is to serve the commercial man, and there's nothing wrong with that, then I wouldn't have invested in Shorthorn seed-stock to build the product to accomplish that.

 

[Doc]

Then I'd say DS is more prevalent in the steer side these days. Some guys like Schrag are probably making some defect free steers that win. Stropes fantastic steer this year came from Cory and I don't think he's from those sorts of genetics.

That steer is good and by a son of Lakeside Nitro. He is clean on all three defects and a calving ease bull to boot.

 

[beebe]

There is little to no demand for Shorthorn cattle selected wholly on numbers and perceived commercial traits in the Midwest. I like the people, and can appreciate what they do for the breed in terms of documentation and the pursuit of commercial acceptability, but their cattle can't do the things me and many of my colleagues need them to do.

Sorry to keep asking but what is it that you want done that those cattle can't do.  I am not that familiar with their cattle.

 

[RyanChandler]

I'm curious as well.

 

[shortyjock89]

To put it plainly, either make cattle that are fundamentally superior, or be much more valuable at market, than my show ring cattle.  The cows we had from them did okay when bred to some good bulls, but their bulls never made more than an average calf for us. Average very much has its place, but I don't have a big enough herd of cows for that to work.

I believe that may be the crux. If I had 200 cows and turned 5 of their bulls out, I'd probably lIke them a lot more. I'm probably fairly representative of your average sized Shorthorn breeder in the US. We have 25 ish cows (but growing again), and I make my living selling show cattle.

I can't make enough money selling replacement females and feeder calves, which is what those bulls are meant to produce.

This is not me trying to tear that kind of operation down, but if you don't think most of the visible Shorthorn operations are in my boat, I think you're very much wrong.

 

[caledon101]

I see your point OSF. I am not exactly certain of the average herd size nationally but I believe it's modest. Every female in your herd has to contribute. If you have bad luck and lose a few calves it can really impact the bottom line and your overall calf crop offering. You can't absorb the loss easily.

 

[aj]

I would be very interested in seeing a calf that was thc,phac, and dsc. If each condition has an advantage with the look. Or does the pha x ds cripple them evertime? Did Heatwave have the dsc type? He had Shorthorn blood in him. What about some of the monumental club calf bulls.......are they dsc and know one really knows it? Would a breed consider trying to ban phac's? Then the dcs deal would really not amount to that much because its the pha and ds has to combine to make the worst case scenario. It looks like to me if the Shorthorn breed went after the pha deal and attempted to ban that condition it would leave less people butt hurt.....it would be a compromise that might get voted through......and this would make the dcs almost a non issue. I suppose would sue anyway.

 

[knabe]

just raise one AJ, it can't be that hard.


same post over and over.


just like a pull toy, pop goes the weasel, same old tire post over and over and over.


yet you spend NO time creating options.


just start your own association.


you wouldn't need to waste time on transfers, just registering commercial cattle.


all your meeting minutes would be about complaining rather than creating something people might want.


pathetic.


praying for you appears to be a waste of time.


you get more stubborn as time goes on.


you will never do anything.

 

[Medium Rare]

I would be very interested in seeing a calf that was thc,phac, and dsc.

Surely you've seen this image before.

 

[aj]

Is that double stuff?

 

[Medium Rare]

Is that double stuff?

Yes.

 

[aj]

thanks

 

[oakview]

I have on my farm today 2 of what I believe are among the very finest bulls I have ever used, AI or natural.  Both are triple clean.  The two maternal great grand sires of one of the bulls are DSH.  Yes, DSH.  I raised Oakview 2 + 2 long before anybody knew anything about DS.  I saw JBC Ruby Pooh long before anybody heard of DS.  Neither bull showed even the remotest sign of any abnormality.  Stinger appears in 2 + 2's background, but I can't see any PHA in Ruby Pooh's pedigree after a quick glance.  I don't think PHA is a requirement for the DS physical defect to show up, just may increase the frequency.  No one can trace Improver's pedigree or true background far enough to know just what it really is, but it's doubtful there was any PHA in it.  The point is, there are so many great cattle out there that descend from defect carrying parents that I would hate to think where we'd be without them.  I agree with those that say if you eliminate offspring of carrier cattle, you are eliminating all the genetic diversity, and potential for improvement, they might have.  Our genetic base is too small to do that.  Since 2 + 2 and Ruby Pooh are both DSH, 100% of their progeny would be DSC, at least.  If you eliminated all their progeny because they were carriers, the dam of my bull would not exist and a bull that I wouldn't trade for anything wouldn't exist.  As it turns out, I have what I think is one of the finest triple clean or otherwise Shorthorn bulls in existence on my farm.  I vote for allowing those that want to manage the genes to do so.  Just keep putting on the labels.       

 

[aj]

I guess I would question your statement that the Shorthorn genetic base is to small. The Shorthorn breed is the only British breed that has a appendix program. This has allowed every breed in the world to become part of the Shorthorn breed. The Shorthorn breed has allowed the Maine Anjou into the herd book. Irish cattle were allowed in. Milking Shorthorn, Lincoln Red, and what was the Ayatollah bulls breed? Its a noble reason to keep genetic defective cattle around to use as a tool to raise defect free cattle. I would argue that the reason Shorthorn breeders want to continue raising lethal genetic defect cattle is for the look the carriers provide.

 

[knabe]

question away.


buy from people who do what you want.


as usual, you will never create anything of merit as you spend too much time thinking of ways to force people to bend to your will.


what a waste of time. 

 

[librarian]

I would argue that Milking Shorthorn, Lincoln Red, Irish Shorthorns, Scotch Shorthorns, Native Shorthorns, Australian Shorthorns and the North American Beef Shorthorn forged in Canada and the Midwest, share more common ancestors with each other than they do with other breeds. I would call that the traditional Shorthorn genetic base. That base includes plenty of diversity. The Shorthorn breeders, their programs and their environments working with that genetic base are even more diverse. The diversity within that broad genetic base is what we must maintain.
This requires discipline in order to have the ability to make outcrosses within the breed and between strains. I would predict that any dedicated breeder who has developed or maintained a prepotent regionally fit strain of Shorthorns is going to systematically manage the defects within their gene pool for optimal fitness in the long run. Not optimal income in the short term. No rule or regulation or lawsuit will change that.  Those True Breeders will jump the ASA ship in a heartbeat rather than obey a bunch of Snake Oil Salesmen promoting the idea that mutation can be voted out of existence rather than understood.

 

[cbcr]

The Milking Shorthorn and the Shorthorn breed when initially imported were considered a dual purpose breed. Within the original association a group formed a club to promote the Milking animals.

In 1948 the American Milking Shorthorn Society was incorporated and took over the registering of the milking animals.

There should be more cooperation between the breed organizations especially some of the old foundation genetics.  The use of some of the Milking Shorthorn bulls would be more likely to be used in the Beef than the other way.

The native Milking Shorthorn is on the critical list of the Livestock Conservancy.  Many of today's Milking Shorthorn breeders are incorporating other breed into the genetic base of the breed, the Illiwarra, Norwegian Red, other Scandinavian breeds and even Red Holstein.