Purebred status black Shorthorns?? Has this concept ever been explored?

[knabe]

Name ONE positive functional characteristic associated w/ defect carriers that the multipliers are unable to find in defect free cattle. You can't do it.

Profit

 

[caledon101]

Name ONE positive functional characteristic associated w/ defect carriers that the multipliers are unable to find in defect free cattle. You can't do it.

Profit

It's only my opinion but if people want to use TH or PHA carrier genetics then that's just fine. Over time, things either live or die by their own merit. As long as all sires are documented with respect to defects then it really doesn't matter does it?
Being a carrier of TH or PHA doesn't make an animal defective. It only matters if two carriers are bred to each other right?
I was told 30 years ago that black cattle was a passing thing....just a fad. I'm not so sure about that; not from what I see today.

Do we want or need black purebred Shorthorns??....I think we are probably 20 years too late to even consider it; that ship has long since sailed.
However, I still hold the position that associations shouldn't reference colour in their By-Laws. They want to ban your animal if it has a black nose but they don't ban animals for excessive frame score, lack of fertility, performance, calving ease, disposition, poor conformation, structural unsoundness, bad feet and so on.....the stuff that really matters economcially.
Conversations around colour elicits emotional reactions and it is not logical....again...just my opinion!

By the way..... years ago, when show cattle were hitting frame score 10 and every breeder was trying to outdo each other with size it was Dr. Roger Hunsley and Dr. Harlan Ritchie that hit the reset button and sent the pendulum back the other way.
Not sure if those two gentleman are judging too many shows these days but if so, I predict they, or some of their Apostles, will swing it back in the other direction soon.....some of these show animals are getting just a little too small and a little too cute.

 

[aj]

The Shorthorn show cattle have a big birth weight problem. It is discussed in the barns,in the Shorthorn Country, and out in the country. I was asked a question....I spoke my mind.....I was acused of spreading rumours. i have never actually killed a cow with the Salute bull. You have me there. I have never used a son that killed or paralyzed my cow. Salute is a calving problem bull. He is a cow killer. You can hold your mouth and change words and phrases and dodge issues. There are alot of people that know that Salute has a calving issue. It not be allowed up for discussion on this board.......because if you do the "mutual admiration society" of about 7 shorthorn breeders on this will board will beat you death. I was asked a question....I answered it with my opinion. It is now time time for the society to run me in the ground. Everybody in the world knows that the Salute bull has calving issues except people on this board......cause it's........shhhhhhh a secret. Salute is a cow killer....in my opinion.

 

[knabe]

it doesn't matter if he is or not.

just produce one that isn't and that sells.

give us solutions, not problems.

 

[Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR]

Name ONE positive functional characteristic associated w/ defect carriers that the multipliers are unable to find in defect free cattle. You can't do it.

Profit

It's only my opinion but if people want to use TH or PHA carrier genetics then that's just fine. Over time, things either live or die by their own merit. As long as all sires are documented with respect to defects then it really doesn't matter does it?
Being a carrier of TH or PHA doesn't make an animal defective. It only matters if two carriers are bred to each other right?
I was told 30 years ago that black cattle was a passing thing....just a fad. I'm not so sure about that; not from what I see today.

Do we want or need black purebred Shorthorns??....I think we are probably 20 years too late to even consider it; that ship has long since sailed.
However, I still hold the position that associations shouldn't reference colour in their By-Laws. They want to ban your animal if it has a black nose but they don't ban animals for excessive frame score, lack of fertility, performance, calving ease, disposition, poor conformation, structural unsoundness, bad feet and so on.....the stuff that really matters economcially.
Conversations around colour elicits emotional reactions and it is not logical....again...just my opinion!

By the way..... years ago, when show cattle were hitting frame score 10 and every breeder was trying to outdo each other with size it was Dr. Roger Hunsley and Dr. Harlan Ritchie that hit the reset button and sent the pendulum back the other way.
Not sure if those two gentleman are judging too many shows these days but if so, I predict they, or some of their Apostles, will swing it back in the other direction soon.....some of these show animals are getting just a little too small and a little too cute.

Well describe Caledon.

Genetic carriers make more profit if they become live as well, dead calves no makes money. Today, these genetic defects are yet under control and not widely spread, so profit with it is possible.....but....

Also agree about not ban animals with problems described by you. I not see with goodwill this extreme selection for some performance. Of course that performance is necessary, but selection for weight will increase size and mantence requerements...and by comments here I can see that almost all are breeders that known deeply your activity, so why they keep following to these mistakes ways!

Is very rare Shorthorn bulls semen arrive here in Brazil, but is a shame as so called "improver" bulls by performance side are so bad conformed. Is hardy compete with two hundred black bulls on semen catalogues with so bad Shorthorn available. On my criteria I can count many years without a respectable bull with semen offered here.

The discussion level is again becoming high!  (clapping)
Some aspects that I really not understand!

 

[Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR]

SULL GNCC Salute 532R ET...is this the controversal bull?
How many kgs he was born?
Please, if you guys gave so many attention to DEP's...a bull with 8.2 for BW DEP....what are you expecting? Is this bull a so great improver for people use it against your calving problems probability?
Really don't understand!

 

[caledon101]

It's only my opinion but if people want to use TH or PHA carrier genetics then that's just fine. Over time, things either live or die by their own merit. As long as all sires are documented with respect to defects then it really doesn't matter does it?
Being a carrier of TH or PHA doesn't make an animal defective. It only matters if two carriers are bred to each other right?
I was told 30 years ago that black cattle was a passing thing....just a fad. I'm not so sure about that; not from what I see today.

Do we want or need black purebred Shorthorns??....I think we are probably 20 years too late to even consider it; that ship has long since sailed.
However, I still hold the position that associations shouldn't reference colour in their By-Laws. They want to ban your animal if it has a black nose but they don't ban animals for excessive frame score, lack of fertility, performance, calving ease, disposition, poor conformation, structural unsoundness, bad feet and so on.....the stuff that really matters economcially.
Conversations around colour elicits emotional reactions and it is not logical....again...just my opinion!

By the way..... years ago, when show cattle were hitting frame score 10 and every breeder was trying to outdo each other with size it was Dr. Roger Hunsley and Dr. Harlan Ritchie that hit the reset button and sent the pendulum back the other way.
Not sure if those two gentleman are judging too many shows these days but if so, I predict they, or some of their Apostles, will swing it back in the other direction soon.....some of these show animals are getting just a little too small and a little too cute.
[/quote]


Well describe Caledon.

Genetic carriers make more profit if they become live as well, dead calves no makes money. Today, these genetic defects are yet under control and not widely spread, so profit with it is possible.....but....

Also agree about not ban animals with problems described by you. I not see with goodwill this extreme selection for some performance. Of course that performance is necessary, but selection for weight will increase size and mantence requerements...and by comments here I can see that almost all are breeders that known deeply your activity, so why they keep following to these mistakes ways!

Is very rare Shorthorn bulls semen arrive here in Brazil, but is a shame as so called "improver" bulls by performance side are so bad conformed. Is hardy compete with two hundred black bulls on semen catalogues with so bad Shorthorn available. On my criteria I can count many years without a respectable bull with semen offered here.

The discussion level is again becoming high!  (clapping)
Some aspects that I really not understand!
[/quote]

Cabanha.....I think many purebred enthusiasts, especially the show-ring crowd, feel a need to push the envelope so to speak.....they play with fire knowing they can get burned but are willing to take big risks because they feel that if they gamble they have a good chance to win; the payoff can be excellent.

This is why so many purebred breeders belong to what I call "the bull of the month club". They will breed their yearling heifers or, flush unproven females to unproven yearling bulls, usually recent show winners, that are being highly promoted. These young bulls have no track record or history on calving ease etc.
They do this in the hope that they can get ahead of the crowd and win in the showring and/or sale ring with the latest, greatest and most "up to date" genetics.
I would never flush an unproven female to an unproven young bull...never. ET presents enough risk without taking wild swings and striking out.

"If you're not living on the edge....then you are probably taking up too much space"
This is the credo that many purebred producers choose to live by....but not all of course!

When I was a boy a very wise old man said to me, "you are only born with one enemy....the rest you are going to have to make".  The "enemy" isn't each other in the cattle industry....it is chicken and pork. Some folks might consider keeping that in mind when they dialogue on this site. It's absolutely okay to disagree isn't it?
Again.....only my opinion here!
I find many postings very interesting and educational.

 

[jaimiediamond]

Last November I went to Agribition with my Uncle who at the time was 73.  (My uncle imported Mandalong Superflag)  I was absolutely mortified as he had approached not just one breeder or even one breed and directly asked them what breed of cattle they were showing as the breed character is gone.  Now that I have got over the embarrassment I can understand how my uncle was confused as a lot of the breeds look a like.  There was a time when breed type and character meant something.

 

[caledon101]

I absolutely hear what you are saying. I walk through the barn in Louisville and unless there are stall cards and farm signs hanging it is difficult to know what breed you are looking at. This is very true.

 

[RyanChandler]

Hell Jaimie, you should have held your head high as his words were spoken like a true cattleman: Blunt and to the point.

 

[comercialfarmer]

Deep ponderings by commercialfarmer.....


If a seed stock producer is concerned about turning a profit, should he condemn a commercial producer because of the same???   

If a commercial producer does not hold to the same ideology, or more truly, business model... such as purchasing the best stock possible... is he unequivocally wrong???  or is this producer just not a target customer for the seed stock gentlemen/gentlewomen???      Is Wal-mart wrong and Tiffany's right, are they both right, both wrong, or do they just sell different merchandise to a different customer base??

If one condemns the pursuit of profit in the bovine production business, and said individual funds oneself with another line of work, does this not make the "business", a hobby?  Definition of Hobby- An activity or interest pursued outside one's regular occupation and engaged in primarily for pleasure.  Add to this, if a business does not turn a profit in x number of years, does the government (IRS) not see such activity as NOT a business???

So is it appropriate for someone with a hobby, to pass judgment on another making a profit due to the other deciding to chose said activity as an occupation? 

Would the hobbyist not also need to be willing forego employment/pay in said hobbyist's day job to not be throwing stones??? 

If one was to be a purist of the "art", would they not quit all other activities that would distract from the "art" including other vocations and leisure??? 

What is the value in paintings, in sculptures, music, literature?  fine jewelry?  Is there intrinsic value in beauty?    Is cattle the only species of animal bred for phenotype?? 

Does it take less knowledge or skill to breed a perfect animal from imperfect stock for one goal vs another? 

If one has true sense of self worth and purpose, does it matter what the world believes? 

If one has a sense of self worth and purpose, and it does not matter what the world believes, is it not a vain act to try to convince the world of their worth or purpose???

Is building up, not more noble than tearing down??? 

Does the act of destroying one, build up another?

Is love not more noble than hate???   

Did you know that typing 4 question marks in a row makes one of these faces... ????

 

[trevorgreycattleco]

Deep ponderings by commercialfarmer.....


If a seed stock producer is concerned about turning a profit, should he condemn a commercial producer because of the same???   

If a commercial producer does not hold to the same ideology, or more truly, business model... such as purchasing the best stock possible... is he unequivocally wrong???  or is this producer just not a target customer for the seed stock gentlemen/gentlewomen???      Is Wal-mart wrong and Tiffany's right, are they both right, both wrong, or do they just sell different merchandise to a different customer base??

If one condemns the pursuit of profit in the bovine production business, and said individual funds oneself with another line of work, does this not make the "business", a hobby?  Definition of Hobby- An activity or interest pursued outside one's regular occupation and engaged in primarily for pleasure.  Add to this, if a business does not turn a profit in x number of years, does the government (IRS) not see such activity as NOT a business???

So is it appropriate for someone with a hobby, to pass judgment on another making a profit due to the other deciding to chose said activity as an occupation? 

Would the hobbyist not also need to be willing forego employment/pay in said hobbyist's day job to not be throwing stones??? 

If one was to be a purist of the "art", would they not quit all other activities that would distract from the "art" including other vocations and leisure??? 

What is the value in paintings, in sculptures, music, literature?  fine jewelry?  Is there intrinsic value in beauty?    Is cattle the only species of animal bred for phenotype?? 

Does it take less knowledge or skill to breed a perfect animal from imperfect stock for one goal vs another? 

If one has true sense of self worth and purpose, does it matter what the world believes? 

If one has a sense of self worth and purpose, and it does not matter what the world believes, is it not a vain act to try to convince the world of their worth or purpose???

Is building up, not more noble than tearing down??? 

Does the act of destroying one, build up another?

Is love not more noble than hate???   

Did you know that typing 4 question marks in a row makes one of these faces... ????

That's great stuff cf!!!! I need to dwell on that awhile.

 

[knabe]

If one was to be a purist of the "art", would they not quit all other activities that would distract from the "art" including other vocations and leisure??? 

they would need a benefactor who could recover losses after recipient died due to rarity of product.

 

[aj]

Why is there AIR? One could get all technical about it.......but its simple according to my old football coach. Air is used to pump up FOOTBALLS.....and basketballs.......period.....end of story. I think it would be kinda funny if the breed allowed black Shorthorns now.......20 years to late.......it would tick off the ivory tower people like crazy.

 

[oakview]

I would wager that if the Angus breed decided to promote roan cattle, they would sell.  It is amazing what can be done with unlimited funds aimed at promotion.  Do you really think anybody can tell the difference between a Certified Angus hamburger at Hardee's and a Holstein buger from Wendy's?  Promotion, promotion, promotion.  If you spread a "fact" often enough and forceful enough to a general population that doesn't know any better, it will eventually be accepted as truth to enough people that you will succeed.  Our political class is a perfect example.  Spend enough money with the message that you are giving something for nothing to people that don't know any better, and you will most likely be elected, and re-elected to stay on the political gravy train.  It also helps to have a willing media to spread your message free of charge.  By the way, this method also works with selling breeding stock.  Convince people that you have what they need, and you can sell it.  It will work on a local, regional, national, and world wide level.  Problem is, most breed associations don't have the bank account of the Angus.

 

[justintime]

I would wager that if the Angus breed decided to promote roan cattle, they would sell.  It is amazing what can be done with unlimited funds aimed at promotion.  Do you really think anybody can tell the difference between a Certified Angus hamburger at Hardee's and a Holstein buger from Wendy's?  Promotion, promotion, promotion.  If you spread a "fact" often enough and forceful enough to a general population that doesn't know any better, it will eventually be accepted as truth to enough people that you will succeed.  Our political class is a perfect example.  Spend enough money with the message that you are giving something for nothing to people that don't know any better, and you will most likely be elected, and re-elected to stay on the political gravy train.  It also helps to have a willing media to spread your message free of charge.  By the way, this method also works with selling breeding stock.  Convince people that you have what they need, and you can sell it.  It will work on a local, regional, national, and world wide level.  Problem is, most breed associations don't have the bank account of the Angus.

I was thinking about this yesterday. How times have changed!  For many years, the Angus and Shorthorn breeds held their Annual Meetings together here in Canada, using the same venue and also having joint evening functions, banquets and guest speakers. Probably 15-20 years ago the breeds decided to hold seperate annual meetings so that relationship ended. I was remembering the financial problems the Canadian Angus Association had for many years. I was on the Canadian Shorthorn board, and at one of the coffee breaks I had been talking with some Angus directors and they had told me that they had about a $150,000 loss for the past year, and this was the 5th consecutive loss they had. The bank refused to advance them any more funds and the only way they could find to keep the breed office open and operating was 5 of the Angus board had signed personal notes at the bank for $60,000 each.( to pay back the previous losses for several years.) That was actually a real turning point for the Angus breed in Canada, and I think the following year they actually showed black ink again. Every following year they continued to show improvement and these directors were all paid back in a short period of time. I often wonder how many board members today would be willing to do the same thing. 
I also remember the Shorthorn board talking about this and being thankful we were in the Shorthorn directors meeting and not the Angus meeting.  How times have changed!

 

[caledon101]

People are people and, they all want to be part of something that's on the move. The Angus breed differentiated themselves and found a way to very successfully brand their product at the consumer level. Great marketing strategy!

A flywheel is heavy and it takes time and energy to get it spinning but once that big heavy flywheel gains momentum it becomes hard to stop.
We see examples of it all the time in the political arena; a party that was not favoured somehow finds a way to generate some steam and voters scramble to get on board. People want to associate themselves with a winning team and investors always feel more confident when they see some vertical trajectory on the chart. No one wants to sign up and join a flat liner.
Organizations need to set attainable and realistic goals. It gives everyone something to aim for and, even more importantly, something to celebrate when you reach it! That's important; even if the target was very modest.

I had a phone call from a breeder yesterday and he expressed concern that the Shorthorn industry may be heading for some tough times in Eastern Canada. He feels his time and energy would be better spent on the eastern US market. Both he and his wife work hard both on and off the farm to support a young family and they want to invest sensibly. I suggested he find out what the short and long term plans his national and provincial associations are and, where are they taking the breed? And then decide what is best for his own operation.

 

[oakview]

I have always felt that the associations should take the direction(s) that the breeders want it to go.  Perhaps some leadership and organizational skills are needed, but the association should be a reflection of the membership.  Did these people offer any reasons why they felt the breed might be on the decline in Eastern Canada?  Are some other breeds taking their place or is the cattle industry in general declining because of land use issues, etc.?  Did they have any ideas about what their herd might offer for future conditions or how they might fit in better?  I am far from being a mover and shaker in the breed.  However, I have never thought that the association was responsible for selling my cattle.  When they don't sell well, it's usually my fault, whether at the sale barn or auction ring.  If the associations are doing something you don't like, let your concerns be heard.  They are working for you, not the other way around.  Perhaps I'm not the most demanding person, but the ASA reps I have been in contact with over the past 49 years have always been willing to listen and do what they could.   

 

[caledon101]

Hi Oakview;
I think you hit the nail on the head in your second sentence with your reference to leadership.
I understand there is a new CSA President now and, I was really encouraged when I read his detailed and thoughtful introduction in the most recent edition of our Canadian breed magazine.
The Editor is 50% correct when he says that the only thing we get for free in this industry is hybrid vigour. He missed the other major thing that's free.....communication; especially today with social media and so on. Show me an association with unhappy members and I'll show you a communication problem. Show me a communication problem and I'll show you a leadership issue. 

Canada like the USA is geographically huge. The climate, market, challenges and needs of Shorthorn producers vastly differs from West to East. I realize you have a somewhat similar dynamic in the USA also. Regardless, there is no reason why regional disparities could not be accommodated within one national assocation without disrespecting the Constitution shared by all. In my opinion, there is room for all to thrive. All it takes is some understanding and the willingness to listen and be reasonable. And that's on ALL sides of the issue; not just the association. Members have to be fair and reasonable also.
Not in a million years would I, or any competent breeder, expect their association to sell their seed stock. In fact, it's the last thing I would let them try to do. That's not their role.

There seems to be a growing number of breeders here in eastern Canada expressing interest in the US scene. I believe it is due to several reasons....a dollar now very close to par in value, a re-opened border and, a desire to connect with something that is vibrant, progressive and well supported by youth.

 

[justintime]

Canada like the USA is geographically huge. The climate, market, challenges and needs of Shorthorn producers vastly differs from West to East. I realize you have a somewhat similar dynamic in the USA also. Regardless, there is no reason why regional disparities could not be accommodated within one national assocation without disrespecting the Constitution shared by all. In my opinion, there is room for all to thrive. All it takes is some understanding and the willingness to listen and be reasonable. And that's on ALL sides of the issue; not just the association. Members have to be fair and reasonable also.
Not in a million years would I, or any competent breeder, expect their association to sell their seed stock. In fact, it's the last thing I would let them try to do. That's not their role.

There seems to be a growing number of breeders here in eastern Canada expressing interest in the US scene. I believe it is due to several reasons....a dollar now very close to par in value, a re-opened border and, a desire to connect with something that is vibrant, progressive and well supported by youth.

I can understand some breeders in eastern Canada expressing interest in the American scene. Geographically it makes some sense, as they are much closer to many US states, than they are to Western Canada. For example, many Ontario breeders can be in Louisville in 8-10 hours versus a trip to Agribition in Saskatchewan is a 28-30 hour drive. I have oftentimes thought that our forefathers really goofed when they decided to divide this continent into two seperate countries. It would have made much more sense to divide it north and south rather than east and west. Western Canada and Western US have lots of similarities and much more in common as do Eastern Canada and Eastern US. I doubt if that will ever happen now, so I guess i will just continue to try to talk the US into trading Alaska and Hawaii for Quebec. I have also thought this would be a great trade for both countries!