Shorthorn Discussion

[knabe]

Was that "Joseph Goebbels"?

That sold the TH carrier bull?

I think it was.

 

[mark tenenbaum]

Was that "Joseph Goebbels"?

That sold the TH carrier bull?

I think it was. (lol)

Actually-It was Edward Quane of Ireland-Deerpark Improver-AND WHOEVER came up with the fullblood maine-STINGER-these two bulls have done a majority of the damage O0

 

[librarian]

Which bulls would you nominate for a WORKING SHORTHORN sire directory?
If I was a commercial Angus producer looking for a Shorthorn outcross to save heifers from and sell backgrounded steers, I would go to Cattle Visons, for instance, and eliminate any that are not th/pha free, then sort the bulls first by Maternal Calving Ease, then eliminate any with negative CED, then eliminate any that are negative on Marbling and then by Yearling Weight. (maybe not a sound way to go at it, but what I would do)
So if you take the top 20 for MCE, then eliminate anything negative on CED and Marbling, then take the highest yearling weight the line up is like this in descending order for yearling weight.
My question is what would be your selection criteria? 

DRC 101VM th/pha free
RS DV 034  th/pha free
Saskavalley Bonanza 219 M th/pha free
Alta Cedar Signature th/pha free
HC FL TOUCHDOWN 123T th/pha free
Diamond Prophecy 21P th/pha free
Alta Cedar Code Red 62W (no marb epd, unknown carrier status)
A&T RENEGADE 124 th/pha free
Alta Cedar First Blood th/pha free
Roanaoke Flashback  th/pha free
Coalpit Creek Leader 6th  th/pha free

 

[jaimiediamond]

Alta Cedar and Diamond Prophecy should get eliminated for not being for sure th and pha free (don't know the whole story here, but rules are rules).

I do not think there is any story for these bulls you listed all are TH/PH free.  Cattlevisions may not have had time to update.

Animal Information: Diamond Prophecy 21P
x4175322 PHA-F TH-F

Animal Information: Alta Cedar Signature 119N
x4099460 PHA-F TH-F

Animal Information: Alta Cedar First Blood 5R
x4142667 PHA-F TH-F

 

[RyanChandler]

Which bulls would you nominate for a WORKING SHORTHORN sire directory?
If I was a commercial Angus producer looking for a Shorthorn outcross to save heifers from and sell backgrounded steers, I would go to Cattle Visons, for instance, and sort the bulls first by Maternal Calving Ease, then eliminate any with negative CED, then by Marbling and then by Yearling Weight. (maybe not a sound way to go at it, but what I would do)
So if you take the top 20 for MCE, then eliminate anything negative on CED and Marbling, then take the highest yearling weight the line up is like this in descending order for yearling weight.
Alta Cedar and Diamond Prophecy should get eliminated for not being for sure th and pha free (don't know the whole story here, but rules are rules).
My question is what would be your selection criteria? 

DRC 101VM th/pha free
RS DV 034  th/pha free
Saska valley Bonanza  219 M th/pha free
Alta Cedar Signature  th free
Touchdown 123T th/pha free
Diamond Prophecy 21P th free
Alta Cedar Code Red 62W (no marb epd, unknown carrier status)
A&T RENEGADE 124 th/pha free
Alta Cedar First Blood th free
Roanaoke Flashback  th/pha free
Coalpit Creek Leader 6th  th/pha free

This is descending order for YW?

The first thing I look at is birthweight.  The second thing is weaning weight.  The third thing is dam weight.  Then I'm going to look at Milk, CE, then MCE. 

 

[doc-sun]

Was that "Joseph Goebbels"?

That sold the TH carrier bull?

I think it was. (lol)

Actually-It was Edward Quane of Ireland-Deerpark Improver-AND WHOEVER came up with the fullblood maine-STINGER-these two bulls have done a majority of the damage O0

Stinger is not Fullblood Maine

 

[mark tenenbaum]

What is he then? He, his sire SDR Monument,and dam are all are listed as MA on the registrations.His sire goes back to Inox and Epinal,his dam goes to Dollar 2 twice,etc O0

 

[Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR]

Which bulls would you nominate for a WORKING SHORTHORN sire directory?
If I was a commercial Angus producer looking for a Shorthorn outcross to save heifers from and sell backgrounded steers, I would go to Cattle Visons, for instance, and sort the bulls first by Maternal Calving Ease, then eliminate any with negative CED, then by Marbling and then by Yearling Weight. (maybe not a sound way to go at it, but what I would do)
So if you take the top 20 for MCE, then eliminate anything negative on CED and Marbling, then take the highest yearling weight the line up is like this in descending order for yearling weight.
Alta Cedar and Diamond Prophecy should get eliminated for not being for sure th and pha free (don't know the whole story here, but rules are rules).
My question is what would be your selection criteria? 

DRC 101VM th/pha free
RS DV 034  th/pha free
Saska valley Bonanza  219 M th/pha free
Alta Cedar Signature  th free
Touchdown 123T th/pha free
Diamond Prophecy 21P th free
Alta Cedar Code Red 62W (no marb epd, unknown carrier status)
A&T RENEGADE 124 th/pha free
Alta Cedar First Blood th free
Roanaoke Flashback  th/pha free
Coalpit Creek Leader 6th  th/pha free

1 - Coalpit Leader 6th
2 - Alta Cedar First Blood
3 - Alta Cedar Signature
4 - Alta Cedar Code Red.

My list!

 

[OLD WORLD SHORTIE]

This thread has to many words did not read!
Do not care!
<rock>

This is actually one of the best threads and discussions that have been on SP. 
I would venture to guess that if you are truly "old world shortie", the problem of the breed might be that too many shortie breeders did NOT read all the words and also do not care.

LoL how many times has this same thread appeared on SP under a different title. Only about eleventy billion times. Same rabble rabble over and over again. This is how it goes, every time and the same guys name the same bulls.
Basically you need something that's easy fleshing is Canadian or Australian with some kind of Leader influence in its background.
So basically this thread will die down and will be back within the next two months under a disguise of a statement about the shorthorn breed. It's pretty much like the movie ground hog day, reliving the same thread over and over again.

 

[RedBulls]

This thread has to many words did not read!
Do not care!
<rock>

This is actually one of the best threads and discussions that have been on SP. 
I would venture to guess that if you are truly "old world shortie", the problem of the breed might be that too many shortie breeders did NOT read all the words and also do not care.

LoL how many times has this same thread appeared on SP under a different title. Only about eleventy billion times. Same rabble rabble over and over again. This is how it goes, every time and the same guys name the same bulls.
Basically you need something that's easy fleshing is Canadian or Australian with some kind of Leader influence in its background.
So basically this thread will die down and will be back within the next two months under a disguise of a statement about the shorthorn breed. It's pretty much like the movie ground hog day, reliving the same thread over and over again.

OWS- I think the reason that this subject has appeared eleventy billion times is that some of us who truly believe in the Shorthorn Breed keep hoping against hope that common sense and overall concern for the welfare of our animals might someday prevail as it pertains to form and function. It has now reached the point to where this great breed of cattle has become known all too often for calving difficulties, poor udder quality, incorrect bone/leg structure upon maturity, lameness, poor fertility, indifferent maternal instincts (often a result of dystocia), etc. etc.

If I had the time to read the posts about “which bull to use to add hair and bone,” or to “correct” this problem or that problem, I think you would have to agree that the total would surely exceed eleventy billion.
I have probably used too many words, once again. By now, you may have discerned that I am very passionate about this great breed of cattle. I work very hard to do what I can to restore Industry Relevance. “Attractiveness” shouldn’t be nor does it need to be antagonistic to “functional” in our Breed.

I personally enjoy looking at English Bulldogs. I would never try raising ‘em after learning about the time, effort and money it often takes to get a pup safely on the ground.

“I guess I’m a toe-stepper, an habitual toe stepper”  <cowboy>

 

[knabe]

What is he then? He, his sire SDR Monument,and dam are all are listed as MA on the registrations.His sire goes back to Inox and Epinal,his dam goes to Dollar 2 twice,etc O0

The Pha prob comes from the sibelle cow. She is why it was thought Pha potentially came from novino as he is her sire. Her pedigree is unknown. If the French would ever make their pedigrees online, this could be figured out.

Ms Covino goes to a cow named ms hybrid vigor.

 

[librarian]

jaimiediamond, thanks for the clarification.  Diamond Prophecy is a bull I have always admired.
I figured the story was that Diamond Prophecy, Alta Cedar First Blood and Alta Cedar Signature were really th and pha free. I am going to modify the remarks in the posting so that it doesn't go down in internet history that they are questionable. Cattle Visions should fix that.
I was just putting up the type of information a person with an amateur understanding (like myself) could access with a best guess amateur approach.
My education, other than SP, is just searching by image and then trying to learn about the breeding behind animals that look good to me.  Patterns occur and Alta Cedar is part of the pattern that appeals to me.
XBAR, using EPD's correctly is just another of the many things I am very blurry on.  Not that I even trust them, but I would like to understand the concepts.
I just figure yearling weight tells more about growth. MCE tells if the bull is not terminal, and marbling is a major thing Angus will not want to loose in an outcross.
You rank relevance as: The first thing I look at is birthweight.  The second thing is weaning weight.  The third thing is dam weight.  Then I'm going to look at Milk, CE, then MCE. 

This means, from a cow/calf perspective, one first looks to see how fast they grow? Then how efficient the dam was at raising a calf? Then how expensive the milk was? Then shape of calf?  Then?
Descending order means largest to smallest, I think? 

 

[librarian]

OWS, When I did that sort, I was actually surprised to see that the majority of the bulls that rose to the top were from programs familiar to me from reading posts on this site about functional cattle. Apparently, some breeders have been walking the talk for a long time and have the genetics to prove it. Those bulls just come up if you sort by MCE and Marbling, it wasn't deliberate.

 

[OLD WORLD SHORTIE]

I'm not knocking the cattle and I'm not knocking the Bulls heck I've named some of the Bulls in the past threads. It's the repetitiveness of the subject matter.
I guess it's better than a big witch hunt for TH and PHA positive Bulls. Those were the days.

 

[Okotoks]

Which bulls would you nominate for a WORKING SHORTHORN sire directory?
If I was a commercial Angus producer looking for a Shorthorn outcross to save heifers from and sell backgrounded steers, I would go to Cattle Visons, for instance, and eliminate any that are not th/pha free, then sort the bulls first by Maternal Calving Ease, then eliminate any with negative CED, then eliminate any that are negative on Marbling and then by Yearling Weight. (maybe not a sound way to go at it, but what I would do)
So if you take the top 20 for MCE, then eliminate anything negative on CED and Marbling, then take the highest yearling weight the line up is like this in descending order for yearling weight.
My question is what would be your selection criteria? 

DRC 101VM th/pha free
RS DV 034  th/pha free
Saskavalley Bonanza 219 M th/pha free
Alta Cedar Signature th/pha free
HC FL TOUCHDOWN 123T th/pha free
Diamond Prophecy 21P th/pha free
Alta Cedar Code Red 62W (no marb epd, unknown carrier status)
A&T RENEGADE 124 th/pha free
Alta Cedar First Blood th/pha free
Roanaoke Flashback  th/pha free
Coalpit Creek Leader 6th  th/pha free

As far as EPD's go I would be looking at CE and MCE as being more important than BW. (that said when you are selling bulls it's hard to get away from BW) From my own experience though if you are building a herd MCE and CE are important. If your bulls have good MCE and CE then your bull customers will be pretty happy when they start calving replacement heifers from bulls they purchased from you. After that weaning weight and yearling weight, then marbling and REA.

 

[RyanChandler]

Without looking at actual birthweight - a positive CE Epd will mislead you. Ex: x4166333

 

[Okotoks]

Without looking at actual birthweight - a positive CE Epd will mislead you. Ex: x4166333

That's true but a low birth weight can also be misleading without looking at CE and MCE. A light calf could be premature, have poor nutrition, a dam with a compromised blood flow to the uterus or be a light birth weight but still a difficult birth from a small pelvic sized dam. If your cows have a positive calving ease they can also deliver larger calves which should be important in commercial herds when terminal cross sires are used on them. I know of two herds where x4166333 sons and grandsons are being used. The one herd is Charolais where they only look at CE not BW and the other is commercial Simmental where they don't weigh the calves but cull on pelvis size. In both cases they love the bulls from this program!

 

[RyanChandler]

Analyzing multiple generations of actual birthweights is the method I feel most comfortable with. I then see what kind of growth they have, taking into consideration both dam size and the environment in which they were raised.

 

[Duncraggan]

Without looking at actual birthweight - a positive CE Epd will mislead you. Ex: x4166333

That's true but a low birth weight can also be misleading without looking at CE and MCE. A light calf could be premature, have poor nutrition, a dam with a compromised blood flow to the uterus or be a light birth weight but still a difficult birth from a small pelvic sized dam. If your cows have a positive calving ease they can also deliver larger calves which should be important in commercial herds when terminal cross sires are used on them. I know of two herds where x4166333 sons and grandsons are being used. The one herd is Charolais where they only look at CE not BW and the other is commercial Simmental where they don't weigh the calves but cull on pelvis size. In both cases they love the bulls from this program!

If Charolais and Simmental cows couldn't push out mammoth sized calves with ease they would have been extinct and they should therefore be able to calve any Shorthorn sired calf as if they had diarrhoea! (lol)

 

[RyanChandler]

Exactly. What a ton cow is capable of is really a non factor here.  No 115lb bw bull should be positive for CE.  All that shows is that he's been bred to some big ass cows.