Shorthorn weaning weights.

[JTM]

This looked like fun so I thought I would play along.

 

[oakview]

I would shoot that animal.  Unless, of course, you could get a satisfactory photo from between the front hooves, aimed upwards towards the chest floor, showing adequate width in the front, and then take a photo from between the rear hooves, properly illustrating a narrower width between the rear legs, thus proving an adequate wedge shape.  But, seriously....

AJ:  Do you creep feed silage to your calves?  We used to feed a lot of cattle and never started cattle on silage until they were larger than 300 pound calves.  We fed silage to the yearlings after getting them started, and then put the calves we bought on silage some time after getting them in the lot.

If we haven't improved weaning weights in 24 years, how come all the great Angus bulls are +100 in WW?  Are they compared to the bulls of the 50's?  I am not surprised there is some disappointment with calves sired by the old Leader 21 and Clipper King genetics.  The calves we raised from that breeding years ago had to go some to wean at 450 pounds.  The calves sired by my Leader 9 son today are significantly lighter at weaning than my other calves.

I think a photo from several years ago of my wife and I would present a much more appealing "wedge shape" than one taken today.  This is one interesting thread. 

 

[librarian]

Oakview, do you recall whether Surge was wedge shaped in 3 dimensions?

He's not explosive on growth, but above average, and maybe interesting to 3 Eagles.

 

[JTM]

I would shoot that animal.  Unless, of course, you could get a satisfactory photo from between the front hooves, aimed upwards towards the chest floor, showing adequate width in the front, and then take a photo from between the rear hooves, properly illustrating a narrower width between the rear legs, thus proving an adequate wedge shape.  But, seriously....

AJ:  Do you creep feed silage to your calves?  We used to feed a lot of cattle and never started cattle on silage until they were larger than 300 pound calves.  We fed silage to the yearlings after getting them started, and then put the calves we bought on silage some time after getting them in the lot.

If we haven't improved weaning weights in 24 years, how come all the great Angus bulls are +100 in WW?  Are they compared to the bulls of the 50's?  I am not surprised there is some disappointment with calves sired by the old Leader 21 and Clipper King genetics.  The calves we raised from that breeding years ago had to go some to wean at 450 pounds.  The calves sired by my Leader 9 son today are significantly lighter at weaning than my other calves.

I think a photo from several years ago of my wife and I would present a much more appealing "wedge shape" than one taken today.  This is one interesting thread.

Very interesting thread indeed. The description accurately describes Renegade. He is wider underneath in the front than he is in the back. Same is true with my Leachman Apostle bull. I actually agree with what A.J. is saying.

 

[aj]

24 years ago is is what 1992........15 years after the exotic explosion.........8 frame cattle were around.

 

[aj]

The one Angus breeder who always has the 800 pound weaning weights up north........I have heard actually self feeds silage to calves while they are on the cow. SAV prefix guy.......I can't remember the ranch name.

 

[oakview]

I was always under the impression that the rumen of a young calf was not developed enough to properly utilize silage.  Maybe that was just an old farmer's tale.

My weaning weights have improved since 1992 and I would hope that the industry has made some positive strides, too.  Maybe not, though.  Those gutless wonders did not weigh well.  The old timers used to say air didn't weigh much.

When I saw Surge, he was in show shape and definitely not as wedge shaped as in the photo you used.  It is interesting that all the bulls in this thread are shown in pasture condition.  They tend to look shallower in the flank in that condition.  He was straight dual purpose, but had adequate depth and volume, in my opinion.  He was used some by R. Lee Johnson in Ohio.  R. Lee had a bull, Ransom 2975, that always appeared wedge-shaped to me, perhaps a little more so than Surge.

Bulls should have good width to the chest floor.  I was just having a little fun late in the day and had an interesting mental picture of someone trying to photo an animal from between the hooves.  I try to select animals with symmetry and some eye appeal.  A little wedge is okay, but the triangle wedge shape just appears a little too extreme to me. 

 

[vc]

Ultimate Wedge shape:

 

[beebe]

I think that if we looked at the feral cattle of the Aleutian islands, we would find wedge shaped cattle, with some other desirable qualities.

 

[Medium Rare]

I think that if we looked at the feral cattle of the Aleutian islands, we would find wedge shaped cattle, with some other desirable qualities.

Better hurry, I believe those cattle are about to be exterminated in the name of bird nesting habitat.

There was a guy from Colorado who wanted to preserve the genetics, but I believe there's some kind of permit or legal ownership mess the Feds are tired of dealing with.

 

[librarian]

Oakview, thanks for the remarks on Surge. What was it in his breeding that was pushing growth?
....I am certain there is YouTube video somewhere of a person knocked down by a bull and filming from the ground...anything for an exciting FB post!

This bull, Maverick, is not too relevant to growth, except that I thought at one time that his sire, Ball Dee Perfect Count, was being used to put growth back in- but I do think this Maverick bull shows the body type under discussion. His dam is Maid of Promise 189th and I believe the dual blood will produce a more masculine wedge shaped bull.
http://shorthorn.digitalbeef.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=_animal&file=_animal&search_value=&animal_registration=4186530&member_id=
The advantage of the wedge shaped cow is well known to dairymen and indicates more blood flow to the udder. There is much more sexual dimorphism in dairy cattle because they are always selecting for feminine cows that breed and milk well. With selection for beef type the cows commonly become less feminine. My idea is that Double Brute probably owes much of his masculinity to the judiciously maintained old dual purpose blood in the Kaper herd.

 

[oakview]

I don't know that Surge would be considered a "growth" bull today, but he was larger than average in his time because many of the other cattle around were still ponies.  The photo I have of Ball Dee Perfect Count from an AI catalog said he weighed over 2,600 pounds.  He appears thick and deep from end to end.  There were two other Shorthorn bulls in the book, Weston Fullback and Smallflower Leader 2nd (I may have his number wrong).  Semen on Fullback and the Leader bull was $6 and Perfect County was $12 if my memory is correct.  I'd take all I could get today at that price.  Perfect Count's pedigree had some pretty small cattle close up, but he evidently was a large bull.  He never became as popular as Leader 21, but you could find some pretty good ones out of him.  JIT's Massive Major wasn't too bad.

That buffalo is too wedged shaped for me.  He's also got a big head and a long nose, obviously a hard calver.  It's a wonder they've survived all these years without our intervention. 

 

[librarian]

Massive Major is out of a Nupar cow. What kind of herd was that? He must have had a pretty decent yearling weight. http://www.rlshorthorns.com/four_point_major.htm
Maverick was in Kansas and Galbreath has him back now. I'm interested to see what they do with him. I hope maybe line him up with some daughters from the Cherry Fillet bull, his maternal half brother.

 

[RyanChandler]

I think that if we looked at the feral cattle of the Aleutian islands, we would find wedge shaped cattle, with some other desirable qualities.

Great point. The wedge shaped design will always present itself when selection pressure -either from man or nature- is placed on functional beef cattle characteristics. Ideal form is not subjective. Rather nature dictates that form fit function. Whether this form came to be by intelligent design or by evolution makes no difference: the fact still remains that there's a particular design (phenotype) most ideally suited for the purpose-the purpose of cattle being to convert forage to beef. When cattle are brought into an artificial environment (for an artificial purpose) where selection pressure is placed on 'eye appeal' as opposed to functional traits, obviously a different form will appear. 

 

[shortybreeder]

I was always under the impression that the rumen of a young calf was not developed enough to properly utilize silage.  Maybe that was just an old farmer's tale.

Well if it was an old farmers tale, they knew what they were doing. It's not that the rumen isn't developed enough, it's that the moisture content is so high that it fills their bodies up and doesn't allow them to get the amount of Dry Matter and Energy that they need in a day. I just finished a Feeds and Feeding class at the University of Wisconsin about 2 months ago, and the instructor emphasized that silage shouldn't be fed to calves much less than 600lbs because the nutritional value isn't high enough compared to its weight and volume.

 

[BroncoFan]

I don't know that Surge would be considered a "growth" bull today, but he was larger than average in his time because many of the other cattle around were still ponies.  The photo I have of Ball Dee Perfect Count from an AI catalog said he weighed over 2,600 pounds.  He appears thick and deep from end to end.  There were two other Shorthorn bulls in the book, Weston Fullback and Smallflower Leader 2nd (I may have his number wrong).  Semen on Fullback and the Leader bull was $6 and Perfect County was $12 if my memory is correct.  I'd take all I could get today at that price.  Perfect Count's pedigree had some pretty small cattle close up, but he evidently was a large bull.  He never became as popular as Leader 21, but you could find some pretty good ones out of him.  JIT's Massive Major wasn't too bad.

That buffalo is too wedged shaped for me.  He's also got a big head and a long nose, obviously a hard calver.  It's a wonder they've survived all these years without our intervention.

Just playing the devil's advocate; Bison actually have small birthweights because they have to. A larger birth weigh means death and not passing on any traits. Natural Selection. Plus they mature slower so they don't breed until their 2nd birthday. Just Saying.

 

[beebe]

I think that if we looked at the feral cattle of the Aleutian islands, we would find wedge shaped cattle, with some other desirable qualities.

What about the early longhorn cattle?  Did they develop that shape or did different conditions make them different?  I have not had much experience with them.


Great point. The wedge shaped design will always present itself when selection pressure -either from man or nature- is placed on functional beef cattle characteristics. Ideal form is not subjective. Rather nature dictates that form fit function. Whether this form came to be by intelligent design or by evolution makes no difference: the fact still remains that there's a particular design (phenotype) most ideally suited for the purpose-the purpose of cattle being to convert forage to beef. When cattle are brought into an artificial environment (for an artificial purpose) where selection pressure is placed on 'eye appeal' as opposed to functional traits, obviously a different form will appear.

 

[aj]

If they start showing bison........God only knows how man will screw up their phenotype.

 

[shortyjock89]

I mean...there are beefalo shows. They're usually terrible terrible animal .

 

[mark tenenbaum]

If they start showing bison........God only knows how man will screw up their phenotype.

////// breed them to Ayatollah-theyd look similar (but thicker butted) to a few of the Shorthorns in Va and Md  O0