I find this a an interesting topic, I'm going to have to side with judge and cruiser on this one. Mark there is no way shorthorns made angus, if you look at the current breeds that have went black, there success has came from the angus traits. Now no one has said anything bad about these heifers and I feel like I can have my say due to the fact that I have angus and a few shorthorns that I got the opportunity to select a few of the best I could find in a couple herd dispersals. In no way can the shorthorns compete with the angus, they lack the rib, shape, dimension, appetite, doability, fleshing ability and like cruiser said there bw is all over the place and they don't seem to have the vigour to want to live. For a breed that has opened up there herd books at least in canada but also the option to bred up to a reg animal they have not came as far as they should have. All the other breeds have seen what angus can do to help there breed it will only be a matter of time before the shorthorns are riding the angus coat tails aswell.
Shorthorn X Red Angus heifers
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JTM
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All I can say is that with all breeds there are different genetic lines that have certain traits. I'm not going to tell you that the Shorthorn breed as a whole can add all of the things I mentioned earlier, that would be a lie. There is however increasing genetic lines within the Shorthorn breed that can add those traits. The Black Angus breed is so much larger in numbers than any other and along with those numbers has come inconsistencies across the breed. The Shorthorn breed as a whole is very consistent on marbling, tenderness, and choice carcasses but those are the only traits I would confidently say are consistent across the breed. More consistent across the breed than Black Angus. I will not deny that you have a good argument that there are Black Angus genetics that can perform in important areas more than most crossbred cattle. My point is that you can still take those cattle along with the mediocre Angus and breed them to good commercial Shorthorn genetics and get superior results due to hybrid vigor. I think a lot of Angus breeders are reluctant to do so because of past experience just as we have heard from several that have posted. I don't blame them especially if they have superior Angus genetics. I'm just trying to make the case for improvement in very large numbers and stating the case that there are possibilities and opportunities.Judge said:
librarian
Well-known member
As I understand the story, there was a lot of genetic interchange between the cattle in Angus, Aberdeen and Banff. Scotch Shorthorns were developed in Banff and the Angus Breeders in Aberdeen and Angus started crossing Shorthorn bulls on their Angus cows to increase growth and early maturity, and probably milk to make bigger calves as we still do today. Then they would use Angus again for a while, and then back to Shorthorn.
More often than not, the first cross of a Shorthorn bull on an Angus cow makes a blackish animal with a white underline. The Angus Association is still very specific about how far forward white can come on the underline of a registered animal. With the first shorthorn cross, a red gene can be passed to the F1. F2 that go to Shorthorn on both sides may turn up red. Early Angus breeders were selecting for black, and culled the red calves. Somebody started collecting them and eventually the red animals became Red Angus. Red Angus, then, could have a solid Shorthorn base, and selection would be for animals that had Shorthorn genes on top and bottom.
So, and this is my own assumption, Red Angus x Shorthorn is a cross that is more than 50% Shorthorn.
In my experience, Red Angus are more docile than Black Angus.
All that said, why not look at some other females that go to Bonanza and see if they exhibit the same traits as the crosses in the original picture posted. My guess is that we are seeing the influence of a prepotent Shorthorn sire, as another poster suggested.
More often than not, the first cross of a Shorthorn bull on an Angus cow makes a blackish animal with a white underline. The Angus Association is still very specific about how far forward white can come on the underline of a registered animal. With the first shorthorn cross, a red gene can be passed to the F1. F2 that go to Shorthorn on both sides may turn up red. Early Angus breeders were selecting for black, and culled the red calves. Somebody started collecting them and eventually the red animals became Red Angus. Red Angus, then, could have a solid Shorthorn base, and selection would be for animals that had Shorthorn genes on top and bottom.
So, and this is my own assumption, Red Angus x Shorthorn is a cross that is more than 50% Shorthorn.
In my experience, Red Angus are more docile than Black Angus.
All that said, why not look at some other females that go to Bonanza and see if they exhibit the same traits as the crosses in the original picture posted. My guess is that we are seeing the influence of a prepotent Shorthorn sire, as another poster suggested.
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Gargan
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Mill Iron A
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I'm not here to back shortys but Judge you are a little out of hand, angus did crossbreed to make themselves better, btw, angus can not take credit for everything, the only corner they had on the market was marketing and now thats going away
librarian
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Gargan
Well-known member
I'm not saying they weren't at some point everything was a cross, but the angus is pretty pure and now have such a big gene pool to choose from and the association dose not allow up breeding. Angus certainly did do there home work on marketing but the breed is strong if you check registrations in the us and canada angus is by far the leader. The angus will continue to be a breed that is highly sought after. The proof is I the pudding my friends and if you think angus did not help the simmentals out you are crazy, I bet all the young kids don't even know what a full blood looks like they certainly are not black, clean fronted, smaller framed etc. same with the limos and Maine.
Can you guys tell me how the shorthorns went from this to what they look like now? Dairy so you can say all you want about the angus breed but let me tell you look at the nose and head on the old style shorts and look at the new style shorts they are so narrow. I guess the good thing is you don't need to buy feed tubs as they could eat out of a salmon can.
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Gargan
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(pop)
BTW coyote, those are a great set of hfrs you started this thread off with!!
BTW coyote, those are a great set of hfrs you started this thread off with!!
J
JTM
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That's fine Judge if that is your opinion. I have a different one. I'm assuming you are a purebred Angus commercial cow/calf operator and you have some good performing Angus cattle. That's good for you. IMO you could gain more pounds and improve other traits by starting a crossbreeding program. You could just experiment a little with a few cows. That would be my suggestion because of the scientifically proven results of heterosis.Judge said:
RankeCattleCo
Well-known member
The Certofied Angus Beef thing is a whole bunch of crap. I'll take my home raised Holstein steak and throw it next to ANY beef breeds steak and the Holstein will taste better every time. Guarantee it.
aj
Well-known member
I was told by an Angus executive that there is so much foreign blood floating around the Angus breed......that there is no way they can blood test them out. It would make the 50k test really look interesting. They are supposed to be homo polled and black. I have heard 10% of the purebred Angus are th carriers and heterozygous polled........which to me is interesting. I talked to a guy 10 years ago that had a Angus bull siring an occasional horned calf.
JTM I do run angus had horns, tried the cross don't get near the results of straight angus. But what you keep saying is you should crossbreed, but that's where I disagree a breed should be strong enough to stand on its own, and I think if you guys got it together you might be able to make a go of it. AJ that's so untrue, you have to test all bulls before any calves are reg. and in the near future our cows have to be tested aswell, so tell me how someone smokes drugs and passes a piss test
aj
Well-known member
I know your identity is a big secret and you are a coward to reveal your identity but I assume you are probably 25 years old or so.....and that makes you one one the smartest young guns of the world out out there.
librarian
Well-known member
You a beating man AJ cause I assure you are way off on the age Ive forgot more than you'll ever know. What dose my identity have to do with anything? I get you like to argue a few points which is good. I'm sure up to the challenge of teaching you a few things about the cattle industry, my identity has to remain a secret due to the large quantity of business I do, but I can tell you my pockets and smarts go way beyond you
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aj
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I was told that Ankony or a herd like that......owned by an oil company.......in the the late 80's or nineties......threatened to sue the American Angus Assc off the face of the earth if their frame score 9 cattle were blood typed. They were not blood typed for foreign blood......period. Now todays popular Angus may not have these chianina bllodlines in them but it and Holstein were floating all around the their gene pool at one time.
