Shorty hf bulls

[sjcattleco]

[/quote]I think one should be really careful before you use American Muscle on heifers. I have yet to see a calf under 110 lbs. They wouldn't work in many western scenarios. Possibly if you keep them in the lot and monitor them pretty closely you may get by.
[/quote]


ARE YOU SERIUOS???  line bred frame 4.9 bull with no big birth wts in is pedigree aywhere.... if you are having to worry about BW out of AM you need to seriously look at your cow herd or bred cow management! BTW how many have you had? 

 

[Okotoks]

[/quote]

I think one should be really careful before you use American Muscle on heifers. I have yet to see a calf under 110 lbs. They wouldn't work in many western scenarios. Possibly if you keep them in the lot and monitor them pretty closely you may get by.
[/quote]


ARE YOU SERIUOS???  line bred frame 4.9 bull with no big birth wts in is pedigree aywhere.... if you are having to worry about BW out of AM you need to seriously look at your cow herd or bred cow management! BTW how many have you had?  
[/quote]
No bull can do it all by himself. If he's bred to a big cow or a higher birth weight cow he might moderate the BW but you could be looking at a 2 to 3 generation selection process. If you have 1600 lb plus cows 110 lb birth weight would be normal and no reason she should have problems. I checked out American Muscles's calves BW's and most are in the 70's to 80's with only a few higher.

 

[jaimiediamond]

We forgot to cover some of the other factors that affect birthweight. http://jas.fass.org/cgi/reprint/11/1/34.pdf has a interesting article that was republished recently.  It is based on a older test but they clearly state their findings.  Basically an interesting read.

temperature: http://beef.unl.edu/beefreports/199609.shtml
age of the dam older cows tend to have bigger calves
size of the dam  bigger cows = bigger calves
feed and nutritional quality

I will be keeping the list up to date and will keep animals on the list unless there is a valid reason to remove them.

 

[thunderdownunder]

I think the one issue everyone here is forgetting is calf SHAPE. There is no reason a cow/heifer can't have a heavier calf, but if the SHAPE of the calf is wrong, that's when they run into trouble.
No open, broad shoulders, massive feet etc. I know bulls that consistently throw calves at the heavier end of the spectrum (say 45kg), but are quite safe to use on heifers because the calves just slip out.

Just sayin'...

 

[Aussie]

Firstly I release that I am on the other side of the world and things are different but the basic cattle breeding pratices should be similar. Calving ease is influenced by nutrition, calf shape, bull and cow structure. Bulls need a good laid in set of shoulders. Cows need a good hip to pin. Many breeders are so hooked up on birth weight EPD's they forget to select for actual calving ease. I have used many higher birth wt. bulls (+ breed ave.) over hfrs but they have been set up right for calves the right shape.

I agree TDU this is some of what I said on page 7

 

[peachy]

Thunder-your exactly right sometimes size doesnt matter. Personally if I had a 60 lb calf ,I would be a little disappointed.Probably get heck  for that statement.

 

[Okotoks]

Exactly and if it's a long calf it will weigh more at birth. So if you are reducing the birth weight you are not necessarily increasing the calving ease. They still sell by the pound at weaning and long bodied calves weigh more! Shape is important.

 

[justintime]

Exactly and if it's a long calf it will weigh more at birth. So if you are reducing the birth weight you are not necessarily increasing the calving ease. They still sell by the pound at weaning and long bodied calves weigh more! Shape is important.

I could not agree more, and is why I have said that we should be finding a way to talk as much about calving ease as we do about birth weight. Whenever I think of this subject, I am reminded of a conversation I had with one of the largest cattle buyers in this area, a couple years ago. He told me that he did not think the quality of the cattle he saw go through his markets today, was as good as they were several years ago. When I asked him what he thought was the cause of this ( if it was true), he immediately responded that the industry had caused this to happen and it was caused mostly by an obsession with low birth weights ( his words, not mine). He said it was pretty easy to eliminate about 10-15 lbs from a calf's birth weight simply by making them an inch shorter, and they may not have been born any easier than a calf that weighed 10-15 lbs more. While this was a fairly general comment, I tend to see what he was talking about and think he may be right in some regards. This buyer said that a decade ago, he could go to a feeder sale and buy several pot loads of similar calves on any given day. He said that now, he has trouble putting 1 pot load of uniform simliar weight calves together.  I don't know if I agree totally with him, but I do believe there is some truth to his thinking. Like I have said many times before, I have become a firm believer that almost everything in our lives is best in optimum amounts.... and that includes birth weights, frame size, money, food, drink, etc.

 

[Okotoks]

Exactly and if it's a long calf it will weigh more at birth. So if you are reducing the birth weight you are not necessarily increasing the calving ease. They still sell by the pound at weaning and long bodied calves weigh more! Shape is important.

I could not agree more, and is why I have said that we should be finding a way to talk as much about calving ease as we do about birth weight. Whenever I think of this subject, I am reminded of a conversation I had with one of the largest cattle buyers in this area, a couple years ago. He told me that he did not think the quality of the cattle he saw go through his markets today, was as good as they were several years ago. When I asked him what he thought was the cause of this ( if it was true), he immediately responded that the industry had caused this to happen and it was caused mostly by an obsession with low birth weights ( his words, not mine). He said it was pretty easy to eliminate about 10-15 lbs from a calf's birth weight simply by making them an inch shorter, and they may not have been born any easier than a calf that weighed 10-15 lbs more. While this was a fairly general comment, I tend to see what he was talking about and think he may be right in some regards. This buyer said that a decade ago, he could go to a feeder sale and buy several pot loads of similar calves on any given day. He said that now, he has trouble putting 1 pot load of uniform simliar weight calves together.  I don't know if I agree totally with him, but I do believe there is some truth to his thinking. Like I have said many times before, I have become a firm believer that almost everything in our lives is best in optimum amounts.... and that includes birth weights, frame size, money, food, drink, etc.

well I'm ok with birth weights,frame size part but money,food and drink?...........

 

[sue]

Shorthorn has no BW or calving ease issues ... really we dont and never did, my gosh we just all need a 2200 lb cows  and the calves would come out just fine...really it's not the breed it's everybody else in the beef business. <rock>

 

[aj]

The one Red Angus breeder has been measuring head circumference of baby calves for years. To me this is very interesting. I often wondered if a breed would pick up on this and try it.

 

[jaimiediamond]

Shorthorn has no BW or calving ease issues ... really we dont and never did, my gosh we just all need a 2200 lb cows  and the calves would come out just fine...really it's not the breed it's everybody else in the beef business. <rock>

It is the second time on this topic that someone started beating on that poor dead horse.

Since my last update the list was 87 bulls that were either recommended by other users or found on my EPD search of bulls with semen available that had low bw epds with a little bit of growth... When I took the growth criteria out I had well over 150 bulls with semen available! I think that maybe we should turn that stick on ourselves and knock some well needed sense in!!! Every breed has its issues but as breeders we should work on ways to solve them and move forward.  This backwards thinking isn't helping.  Go through the list again and you will see many bulls, of different types, colours and even mature sizes.

It doesn’t take an Einstein to figure out that calf shape has a lot to do with calving ease.  A lighter BW calf could be a harder birth than a heavier BW  long calf just because the long calf was smoother through the shoulder and had a less blocky head.  This is just a simple example. 

To say that BW is everything is pure stupidity 7% of the cow’s weight is what is considered a normal sized calf  in other words a cow of said size should be able to deliver 7% of her body weight... I will drop it 6 for for a example weight! Another trait we really need to watch is maternal calving ease I wouldn't mention this but wait it is a important trait  as an light BW won't necessairly be a easy calf for a small pelvised heifer
1200lbs = 72
1300lbs = 78
1400lbs =84
1500lbs =90
1600lbs =96
1700lbs = 102
1800lbs = 108
1900lbs = 114
2000lbs = 120
2100lbs = 126
2200 lbs = 132

 

[sue]

The one Red Angus breeder has been measuring head circumference of baby calves for years. To me this is very interesting. I often wondered if a breed would pick up on this and try it.

Panhandle Red Angus ...  I think is the one.

 

[trevorgreycattleco]

Cross Diamond in Nebraska does it as well I believe.

 

[jaimiediamond]

not a week after I post the epd list of calving ease bulls, and they post the spring epds!!!! BAH    so here is the updated list with SPRING 2011 EPDS  <rock>

 

[trevorgreycattleco]

Shorthorn has no BW or calving ease issues ... really we dont and never did, my gosh we just all need a 2200 lb cows  and the calves would come out just fine...really it's not the breed it's everybody else in the beef business. <rock>

It is the second time on this topic that someone started beating on that poor dead horse.

Since my last update the list was 87 bulls that were either recommended by other users or found on my EPD search of bulls with semen available that had low bw epds with a little bit of growth... When I took the growth criteria out I had well over 150 bulls with semen available! I think that maybe we should turn that stick on ourselves and knock some well needed sense in!!! Every breed has its issues but as breeders we should work on ways to solve them and move forward.  This backwards thinking isn't helping.   Go through the list again and you will see many bulls, of different types, colours and even mature sizes.

It doesn’t take an Einstein to figure out that calf shape has a lot to do with calving ease.  A lighter BW calf could be a harder birth than a heavier BW  long calf just because the long calf was smoother through the shoulder and had a less blocky head.  This is just a simple example. 

To say that BW is everything is pure stupidity 7% of the cow’s weight is what is considered a normal sized calf  in other words a cow of said size should be able to deliver 7% of her body weight... I will drop it 6 for for a example weight! Another trait we really need to watch is maternal calving ease I wouldn't mention this but wait it is a important trait  as an light BW won't necessairly be a easy calf for a small pelvised heifer
1200lbs = 72
1300lbs = 78
1400lbs =84
1500lbs =90
1600lbs =96
1700lbs = 102
1800lbs = 108
1900lbs = 114
2000lbs = 120
2100lbs = 126
2200 lbs = 132

Nobody is saying it is just a bw issue. Shorthorns are known in the good ol USA for calving difficulties period. Bad news rode a fast horse. Until bulls like these on the list are mainstream instead of what is now it will remain this way. I say what I say on here because I get so sick and tired of commercial people I deal with slamming shorthorns all the time. They have a place in this buisness. it' up to us to provide the right genetics to help the commercial folks make money. When we get there , we can all laugh and joke and drink about are arguments and discussions on the SP.

 

[aj]

Looks like we just need bigger cows. Pretty simple deal.

 

[trevorgreycattleco]

I think importance of cow effiencency went away with the invention of the round baler. Think about it.

 

[aj]

But think of the performance. It takes a big dog to eat a round bale. (dog)

 

[sue]

I filled an order for a 100 bulls with the mature wt of 2400 lbs .  a calving ease score of -10 and a BW of +4.0 .  Looking for another 100