Shoshone Angus

[Aussie]

Ok I get that it will not work in many parts of the States.Here is a picture of our spring and yes I do count hay and silage as grass as we usually grow to much for the cattle to handle. Most full time farmers in this area with the average cow herd size 300 cows work this way. Guess we are lucky with our weather

 

[trevorgreycattleco]

I agree with grass not being free. I am lucky i guess in where I am. I understand where you guys out west and in the south are coming from. Once again, selecting to fit your enviroment becomes critical. I wonder then if my cattle that proove themselves out to be easy keepers here in Ohio are truly easy keepers out west or south? Hard to say. In Ohio I have found a acre of good pasture will run a cow/calf. Far cry from others I know. Maybe I am just spoiled with my grass here. Thats why I can finish them quicker than others can. 8)

 

[Freddy]

One of the neighbors that sells hay ,figured up whaat he needed per ton for his meadow land hay ,there charging 33.00 dollars a ton to put up hay ,an he also figured up the taxes an interest into it an said he needed about 100.00 a ton to make a little from it ... EXPENSES in this country kill you on every thing we do an proably isn't going to get any better ....

 

[yuppiecowboy]

Christ on a bike... what does this have to do with the fact that Leonhardt has a breeding program that makes sense?

 

[trevorgreycattleco]

Christ on a bike... what does this have to do with the fact that Leonhardt has a breeding program that makes sense?

Easy big fella. Whats wrong with this chat? I didn't know Jesus rode a bike.What do you have to offer other than ahole comments?
I am simply comparing different types of regions equal different preferred types of cattle. This fella has raised frankly AWESOME cattle that survive and thrive in Wyoming. I would think they would thrive in Ohio. I thought this would be good reading for all the shorthorn folks on here. Take a pill.

 

[chambero]

I'm not familiar with this guy's ranch, but in general my favorite Angus cattle are those raised in the drier portions of the Great Plains states and plains of Wyoming and Montana.  We use a lot of Sitz Alliance genetics.  I think the kind of environment cattle originate from plays a big role in their ability as a momma or a bull.  In other words, if you are buying cattle from long established ranches whose cattle have developed over decades in that environment, odds are those cattle are going to be pretty functional for the average commercial operator.  In my mind, the environmental long-term origin of cattle is as important as the actual pedigree. I would rather bring western-raised cattle to our environment - from low volume, high quality grass to our area with larger volume, native grasses than animals from say the southeastern or midwestern part of the U.S. that are more used to higher volume forage.

 

[Okotoks]

Christ on a bike... what does this have to do with the fact that Leonhardt has a breeding program that makes sense?

Easy big fella. Whats wrong with this chat? I didn't know Jesus rode a bike.What do you have to offer other than ahole comments?
I am simply comparing different types of regions equal different preferred types of cattle. This fella has raised frankly AWESOME cattle that survive and thrive in Wyoming. I would think they would thrive in Ohio. I thought this would be good reading for all the shorthorn folks on here. Take a pill.

It's a good thread, both the breeding philosophy and how for a breeding program to be successful both the environment and feed sources should help shape a program. It's kind of what a breeding program that makes sense is all about!

 

[Aussie]

I'm not familiar with this guy's ranch, but in general my favorite Angus cattle are those raised in the drier portions of the Great Plains states and plains of Wyoming and Montana.  We use a lot of Sitz Alliance genetics.  I think the kind of environment cattle originate from plays a big role in their ability as a momma or a bull.  In other words, if you are buying cattle from long established ranches whose cattle have developed over decades in that environment, odds are those cattle are going to be pretty functional for the average commercial operator.  In my mind, the environmental long-term origin of cattle is as important as the actual pedigree. I would rather bring western-raised cattle to our environment - from low volume, high quality grass to our area with larger volume, native grasses than animals from say the southeastern or midwestern part of the U.S. that are more used to higher volume forage.

Chambero I agree with you on this. Cattle in my environment can get soft and cows especially can get lazy. That is why I can not go completely with line breeding. I need that injection of blood from those harder environments to "keep them real". One thing I have found from cattle from harder environments coming to our softer country is feet problems. I have looked at three generations of cows with great feet bought a mature cow to see after one winter her feet shot.

 

[aj]

Is part of the grass cattle......is to use moderate cattle. Cattle that grow fast and hard but mature early allowing some marbling to occur instead of just growing frame. Or is good marbling genetics required or both.

 

[justintime]

I have a leased 1000 acre pasture that I am allowed to graze 32 pairs on from May 20th to September 20th. If the grass is good, I have stretched another month of grazing out of it, and no one cares. It is native short grass pasture and you can fatten cattle on this stuff like nothing I have ever seen. Both cows and calves alike are butterball fat coming home from this grass. IMO, these native grasses are the best pastures you can have. You have to be very careful to not overgraze these native pastures as they take much longer to recover than tame grasses. I have been told that it takes 7 years for an overgrazed native pasture to completely recover.  It is a pile of fence to keep maintained for 32 pairs to graze for 4 months of the year. It works out to over 30 acres per cow/ calf pair. The only good news is that my lease payment is about $980 a year ( it fluctuates slightly each year) plus the taxes. The taxes are also pretty low.... like $35 per 160 acre quarter. I think our rural municipality ( county) has the lowest taxes in Saskatchewan if not Canada. We pay local school taxes and nothing else. There is enough revenue flowing in from other revenue sources that they give agriculture a huge break and not charge them any other taxes.

 

[chambero]

My family owns most of our land, but what we do lease from outside or from other family members runs around $160 per year per pair.  We lease by the acre, but that's what it comes out to.  On top of that, we have implemented an extensive brush and weed control program that adds to the cost of grass, but is a necessity.

Any good commercial cattleman spends as much time and resources raising grass and water as they do cattle.  You just have to have cows that can make it pay

 

[BadgerFan]

Yeah, but grass is pretty much free!  Just stop feeding grain and using grain based genetics and switch to more grass based easy doing ones.  The Aussie's do pretty much everything on grass, same thing in Argentina, why can't we?  If you are selling direct freezer orders to your customers, consistency (read linebreeding) is very important.  I can't deal with the occasional freak steer that grows real fast and finishes out very heavy with huge steaks.



[/quote]

Edited.  I see we've established that grass is not free.

 

[knabe]

so where is more genetic progress available?  cattle genetics or pasture genetics/management (which doesn't include health management, though it is a fair inclusion)?

care to throw a ratio out there?

for me, my guess is 30% cattle: 70% pasture management.

in other words, where is the profit made, on the cattle or the grass?

 

[chambero]

Where we live you see more variation in calf weights based on rainfall conditions that year than you do by cattle breed, etc.

Where Shoshone is at and much of the west it's never wet though.

If you don't manage for grass you'll never make money on cattle though

 

[Aussie]

Here grass rules. If you like cattle are the by produce to consume the grass.Pasture is mainly a rye clover base. As I said before we try to match our breeding cycle to match pasture growth. We run a cow to to the acre year round and young cattle (Ylgs)in the spring gain up to 4.4 pounds a day with a season ave 1.54 pounds. AJ we want cattle that will grow to utilise feed marbling for our markets is not as important as yours unless suppling some of the feedlots in the north so don't have to worry to much. Our target weight for the local packer is 550 to 750 pounds dressed weight 0 teeth.

 

[Freddy]

Hey AUSSIE what is your normal wheather pattern for a year ...

 

[Aussie]

Freddy we normally get about 50 inches a year. This is spread from March (Fall break) to mid November(spring). We normally get a Christmas rain of a couple of inches. Temp range Summer 10 degrees C to 28 C winter is 4 dirges C to 13 C maybe 3 frosts a year. Fall Spring somewere in between. Here is a wheather link for Cape Grim which is the global air testing station is for the cleanest air in the world http://www.weatherzone.com.au/tas/northwest-coast/woolnorth It sounds and is a great place to live and is but nearly half the dairy farms in the area are for sale (it is a big dairy area) because of poor returns last year. The milk price was at cost of production. So if you would like a change let me know.

 

[trevorgreycattleco]

so where is more genetic progress available?  cattle genetics or pasture genetics/management (which doesn't include health management, though it is a fair inclusion)?

care to throw a ratio out there?

for me, my guess is 30% cattle: 70% pasture management.

in other words, where is the profit made, on the cattle or the grass?

You can have the best genetics in the world but with no grass they suffer so I will say good grass consistently is the most important link to profit. Just my guess. No ratios tho.

 

[trevorgreycattleco]

Back to Shoshone. Why do you think a guy would give up registering his herd when he is on top? Frustrated with the registered deal enough to say bye bye. Are all of us who take the time and register our cattle really protecting the purity of each breed? How many times have we heard about certain bulls being of a cross bred deal? Purity of the lines is important to me but honestly purity rarely exsists these days. That is why I respect this guy as much as I do. Does your gut even hint that these cattle are not straight black angus? Not for me. Breeder integrity should rank as high up on our list as calving ease or %RP. Pure herds such as ones like this are the key for a crossbreeder fella making end product IMO.

 

[Okotoks]

Back to Shoshone. Why do you think a guy would give up registering his herd when he is on top? Frustrated with the registered deal enough to say bye bye. Are all of us who take the time and register our cattle really protecting the purity of each breed? How many times have we heard about certain bulls being of a cross bred deal? Purity of the lines is important to me but honestly purity rarely exsists these days. That is why I respect this guy as much as I do. Does your gut even hint that these cattle are not straight black angus? Not for me. Breeder integrity should rank as high up on our list as calving ease or %RP. Pure herds such as ones like this are the key for a crossbreeder fella making end product IMO.

It happens in all breeds but not usually when the breeder is on top! For example two of Scotland's early Shorthorn breeders Rennie of Phntassie and Robertson of Ladykirk refused to register their cattle. Their bloodlines were included in the herdbook but with little background. Today in the Shorthorn breed people are trying to get Dover cattle traced and registered and in Australia they have herds that have not kept up their registrations that have been reclaimed. I think it's sad in a way because in the long run a lot of good genetics will be lost to the breed.