Some random thoughts for new cattle breeders

[rackranch]

I don't think you have to be THAT much of an "in" to know what is going on with the ages.  I've seen a major player/breeder sell a December as an April in his sale.  Not rumor, but fact.  It's out there.  We all know it's out there like the elephant in the middle of the room.  And it will continue as long as the judges reward the kids, and the breeders for their false advertisement of their cattle.

I will admit though, I did see one judge make a stand when a 4 month old heifer (on paper), weighting probably 600+ pounds, and outweighting by 100 pounds the heifers that were 2 month older, and the judge just buried it and said it must have been entered in the wrong class at the Ft Worth Jr Maine Show.
[/quote]

I've been saying this for years but I think to many of the judges are friends of the breeders.  As a matter of fact some of these breeders are judges of some of these major shows.  You pick mine I'll pick yours!!  We just have to accept it for what it is and teach our kids that it is a part of life that will never go away.  Not only in the show cattle industry but in all walks of life.

 

[frostback]

If all of you with "proof" are sitting on it, you are encouraging it, condonning it, and are a accessory after the fact. With your "proof" go to the show committee, go to the associations. Get the ball rolling on a cure.

 

[JTM]

If all of you with "proof" are sitting on it, you are encouraging it, condonning it, and are a accessory after the fact. With your "proof" go to the show committee, go to the associations. Get the ball rolling on a cure.

What do you think I'm doing? I've talked to a state vet, association staff, and many breeders about these problems. I've even brought it up on an international cattle forum... What else do you want me to do? We need to discuss these things and encourage the leaders in the Associations and cattle organizations to take necessary steps and investigate. By saying that I'm wrong for bringing these things up on a forum without proof on a video camera, photo, or taped conversation is unfair IMO. I'm trying to do something good for everyone. I think the biggest obstacle are the people who are talking down those who want to speak out. I'm just acknowledging the Elephant in the room.
Doc, you are not offending me and I hope I'm not offending you. I'm just having a heated debate and none of it is personal to me. I'm assuming now that you know that I have heard straight from people that you now agree that it was good for me to bring this up on a forum? Let me know.
firesweepranch, I agree with everything you just said. I just want to be clear that this post was not intended to discourage kids from 4H, FFA, or showing cattle. That is the furthest from what I was saying. I love showing cattle and believe that it is great for kids, but I don't think we should be teaching our kids that lying and cheating is o.k. because everybody is doing it and it's just how things are. I'm also very concerned about all of the drinking. This is a huge problem at shows and sales but they are learning it from the adults who are supplying it and living it.
There are a lot of people who have posted some really good things on this topic and I think it is very encouraging for anyone looking to live this life.

 

[Mueller Show Cattle]

I was going to post a few comments as many of you have very valid points. By my name, you can see I raise show cattle (club calves). I do have commercial cattle also at the ranch. I use to only own black cattle, period mainly because of the premium at market. I have got into some Shorthorn and Simmental purebred cows for show cattle and commercial cattle, now they are some of my favorites, they tend to wean larger calves and have good carcass qualities. The shorthorns in my area get docted at sale which is a shame as tend to have better carcass traits than some of the black ones. There is some false claims out there, club calf heifers can't grow up and be cows without grain, totally false. I have plenty of pictures of cows that are built like freight trains and have never seen a lick of grain and are clubby bred. If the cow can't keep it's condition on grass/hay no matter if it is for producing club calves or not, down the road it goes. I agree with the age problem with shows, can't prove it but believe it goes on. Showing several purebred shorthorns and Simmental calves, bull and heifers this coming year in Denver and mine will be the smaller ones for my heifers, I do not grain my heifers heavy. I have been to many cattle nutrition classes put on and one doc told me that many people make the mistake of graining heifers too much, it is fine if it is market (terminal) bred heifer, but if you are keeping that heifer for breeding stock, the first places that heifer stores fat is in the udder and pelvic region, making that heifer be a hard calving and poor milking heifer/cow, knowing where some of the club calf cows get their reputation from? There were show heifers that went on to be a breeding heifer/cow and they wonder why that heifer always has trouble calving and does not milk very good. I would never buy a heifer that was fed out like a market heifer to use for breeding. My replacement heifers get nothing but grass/hay and sometimes cake and a protein lick. Yes I have clubby bred cows that I kept from birth as heifers and are doing just fine. Not trying to start an argument, just my intake on the subject.

 

[frostback]

If all of you with "proof" are sitting on it, you are encouraging it, condonning it, and are a accessory after the fact. With your "proof" go to the show committee, go to the associations. Get the ball rolling on a cure.

What do you think I'm doing? I've talked to a state vet, association staff, and many breeders about these problems. I've even brought it up on an international cattle forum... What else do you want me to do? We need to discuss these things and encourage the leaders in the Associations and cattle organizations to take necessary steps and investigate. By saying that I'm wrong for bringing these things up on a forum without proof on a video camera, photo, or taped conversation is unfair IMO. I'm trying to do something good for everyone. I think the biggest obstacle are the people who are talking down those who want to speak out. I'm just acknowledging the Elephant in the room.
Doc, you are not offending me and I hope I'm not offending you. I'm just having a heated debate and none of it is personal to me. I'm assuming now that you know that I have heard straight from people that you now agree that it was good for me to bring this up on a forum? Let me know.
firesweepranch, I agree with everything you just said. I just want to be clear that this post was not intended to discourage kids from 4H, FFA, or showing cattle. That is the furthest from what I was saying. I love showing cattle and believe that it is great for kids, but I don't think we should be teaching our kids that lying and cheating is o.k. because everybody is doing it and it's just how things are. I'm also very concerned about all of the drinking. This is a huge problem at shows and sales but they are learning it from the adults who are supplying it and living it.
There are a lot of people who have posted some really good things on this topic and I think it is very encouraging for anyone looking to live this life.

So what have you been told by these people? Ever go to a show and ask if you had proof would they do anything about which class the heifer would be put in?

 

[firesweepranch]

I agree with you Big M! ALL of our heifers have gone home to be cows, period. We have only had a problem with one, who calved as a two year old this spring and would not breed back. We have rolled her to fall, hoping we can get her bred. I told my daughter she gets one chance (AI), and if she does not take she is shipped. She is our heifer that won Ozark Empire Fair in 2011 (Purebred Simmental), so she got a pass to the fall breeding season since she did produce a nice calf in the spring. But she is one problem of MANY that have gone on to be successful as cows. Why this heifer? Who knows (vet even checked her out, no clue as to why she won't take), but she was fed just like the rest of them. Every heifer we have owned and showed must be able to produce in the pasture, or they go.
We had a freemartin last year. She was darn nice, could have shown and won, but what would I be teaching my kids? They hear my rant all the time that the heifers MUST breed and MUST produce, how can that happen with a sterile heifer? So, she went to the market.
What am I trying to say? Not all show heifers are bad cows! Show heifers can make great cows! And, they are easy to work around as cows  (thumbsup)

 

[bryan6807]

I was at a breeders place in March when he had calves hitting the ground and when september rolled around he had the calves out on display and had signs up saying the calves were born in may.

 

[J2F]

Well said Big M  (clapping)
But even know it is not a problem for you in your herd due to your excellent culling practices  it is a problem with some breeders.

 

[lcattleco.]

I have a question about the whole overaging thing?  So if these cattle are so overaged then when they are shown as junior yearlings and there 4 months older than they should be, shouldn't they weigh 1700lbs.  or If they are doing it because they have no grow should they not weigh a 1000lbs by then?

 

[obie105]

The ones I know do it because of lack of growth and they fit in better with another age group.

 

[JTM]

I was going to post a few comments as many of you have very valid points. By my name, you can see I raise show cattle (club calves). I do have commercial cattle also at the ranch. I use to only own black cattle, period mainly because of the premium at market. I have got into some Shorthorn and Simmental purebred cows for show cattle and commercial cattle, now they are some of my favorites, they tend to wean larger calves and have good carcass qualities. The shorthorns in my area get docted at sale which is a shame as tend to have better carcass traits than some of the black ones. There is some false claims out there, club calf heifers can't grow up and be cows without grain, totally false. I have plenty of pictures of cows that are built like freight trains and have never seen a lick of grain and are clubby bred. If the cow can't keep it's condition on grass/hay no matter if it is for producing club calves or not, down the road it goes. I agree with the age problem with shows, can't prove it but believe it goes on. Showing several purebred shorthorns and Simmental calves, bull and heifers this coming year in Denver and mine will be the smaller ones for my heifers, I do not grain my heifers heavy. I have been to many cattle nutrition classes put on and one doc told me that many people make the mistake of graining heifers too much, it is fine if it is market (terminal) bred heifer, but if you are keeping that heifer for breeding stock, the first places that heifer stores fat is in the udder and pelvic region, making that heifer be a hard calving and poor milking heifer/cow, knowing where some of the club calf cows get their reputation from? There were show heifers that went on to be a breeding heifer/cow and they wonder why that heifer always has trouble calving and does not milk very good. I would never buy a heifer that was fed out like a market heifer to use for breeding. My replacement heifers get nothing but grass/hay and sometimes cake and a protein lick. Yes I have clubby bred cows that I kept from birth as heifers and are doing just fine. Not trying to start an argument, just my intake on the subject.

Good post and I wouldn't dispute any of that. All I would say is that a lot of the genetics are bred for certain traits and a lot of people keep bad performing cows because of their potential to throw a calf that will win. This behavior furthers the bad performing genetics within the show scene. It's just one of those things that is known.

 

[aj]

When do they take the birth weights on the aged cattle......when they were born or when they were supposedly born?

 

[sj0515]

If you think the things JTM posted does not happen you are crazy! Breeders push dates. It is simple it comes down to the mighty dollar. If they can sell a Nov at 1500 or say it is a Feb and get 2500 for it, some of them not all of them will.

 

[jaimiediamond]

I think that the big thing when someone starts anything is to have a goal for your end product.  If you are starting in cattle for show steers you should be focusing on clubby genetics, if you are starting a purebred operation you should decide if your directing your market more to the commercial end, the show side or cattle that are both practical and stylish.  Have your own plan and don't expect everyone to agree with you!!!

- Show cattle are bred for showing and that is what you get: I think a lot of people, like myself, when they first learn about cattle, especially if they didn't grow up with them like myself, tend to believe the hype and the myth that show cattle are the best performing cattle and that the bloodlines being used must be superior to the others because the judges are picking them. If you are just getting into the cattle business don't assume that your club calf cows are just going to lay down and have a live calf, the calf get up and nurse on it's own, and the cow actually have an udder they can latch onto with adequate milk. If these are the traits you are wanting in your cows then you have to buy those cows from a breeder that has been culling their cows for those traits for years. I'd say at least 90% of the time those cows are not going to look fancy enough and won't create calves fancy enough for today's show ring.

Perhaps I am in another world but every heifer I showed as a junior project won a championship and then went on to be a great cow an example would be my heifer who was the Reserve Supreme female 2002 Bashaw JR Show,  Canadian National Champion Shorthorn female 2003.  She produced three sons that have been sold to purebred operations one of which we purchased back as our senior herd sire, as well as  many daughters I have retained.

-Also, do you really think that those purebred heifers weighing 850lbs in November were really born in April? The judges will pick them everytime because of their performance because they claim it isn't their responsibility to control proper birthdates within a show.

Unfortunately not everyone is honest.  With that said I have seen heifers that were 7 months being around 800.  Not every program wants that sort of growth.

 

[mark tenenbaum]

To me: this deal has been going on as long as people have showed cattle-and will probably continue. Way back in the olden times people injected lard into the cattle,then came steroids,operations,and various wierd drugs that if caught,would involve some sort of criminal endangerment charges. Some people eat the doctored up steers when they are done.Then come the hiefer shows-whereby if you bring back a senior yearling,or a late born-bloomer,the others are gone the next year,due to the fact that they were 65-75% grown as Junior-Senior calves.At this stage (at least in the Shorthorn show deal) the numbers are subtly beginning to dwindle possibly due to the initial price of admission,and resultant non-returns on investment.Thus-the functional but not real showy cattle are now starting to break the bank-At Jungels,Keith Lauers,Lovings,the Captain Obvious-Sneed Cattle etc.Sullivan produces alot of show winning beutifull cattle in volumes not seen probably in any breed,and it looks like the Red Demand type cattle are now starting to become more of a focus. Probably along with Herefords and some some super zonkco club calves. So-there will probably be a shift in type,just like there was when Shorthorns became very popular for a time, due to Double Stuff and Heatseeker.SO who dont know that? Basically,either you suscribe to the straight and narrow,or you fudge a little,and either the show thing is fun for you and instills responsibility and leadership in your kids WIN OR LOSE,or it doesnt. O0

 

[oakview]

I've been showing cattle for a long time, 47 years in a row at the Iowa State Fair.  Sometimes you see and hear more than you want.  There are issues in showing cattle, just like any other competition humans are involved with.  I would just like to remind everyone that most, not always all, of the differences in size of the animals in a particular class are due to genetics and management.  I have split my cow herd into spring and fall calving groups.  I will guarantee you that my fall calves born in 2012 will be lighter at weaning than the 2011 calves of the same genetics.  I normally have an abundant hay supply and don't mind feeding a little grain to the cows and creep feeding the calves.  I don't need a lecture about the economics of these practices.  When you get old and grumpy, you can do things the way you want to.  This year, I have very little hay and $7.50 corn is above my breaking point.  I have sold down enough in cow numbers that I had 50 acres of unused pasture that I turned the cows into in late September.  I have some corn stalks that they are now grazing.  The fall calvers will remain in the field as long as the weather holds and they can find feed.  I have taken fall calves to the fair the last few years.  I can assure you that the fall calves I take to the fair next summer will be smaller managed this way than if they had been in a lot with good alfalfa hay and grain for the cows and $15/bag creep feed for the calves.  As far as genetics go, if you want pure growth, AI some decent cows to a bull called Jam's Uh-Huh.  Back in my experimental days, I had two bull calves born on the same day or maybe one day apart.  The Uh-Huh calf weighed at least 200 pouinds more at weaning than the calf sired by the club calf oriented bull and more than 350 pounds more at a year.  I had half a dozen Uh-Huh calves during that period and they were the highest performing calves I've ever seen.  They will grow as fast as you can carry a feed bucket.  There probably is some age manipulation, but just keep in mind the role management and genetics play.

 

[trevorgreycattleco]

Oakview, after 47 years sir you can do whatever you want. That s a long time to be in the business. I tip my cap.

 

[aj]

It seems crazy for me for a maternal breed like the Shorthorn to have 2,000 pound cows. Yet they always try and max out wda. The Shorthorn cattle will win the wda age every year cause they have 2,000 pound cows. It looks like to me the breed needs to take the grain away period. Half of these show cattle will not survive on forage only. Then and only then could they look at the remaining cattle and decide what direction to go. I would think that an 1,200 # cow would be the optimum up to 1,400. I think it is important to decide if you are a Maternal breed or an Terminal breed or maternal with marbling. I just can't see how one breed can do everything. Jamies cattle in Canada....maybe.....but even the Angus I think needs to cool there heels on pushing yearling weights and concentrate on maternal. They are getting some big cows now adays.

 

[J2F]

Warning  HIJACK w/ stick poking BEAR (clapping)

What if game!!! <party>

What if major shows announced JAN 1st 2013 that come 2016  all entries must be free of any known genetic defects and all division champions will be tested?

How would the industries change?

Anybody think it will change any major players? IMO it will not they will adapt and stay on top doing what they do best. Finding the best cattle that fit the mold and MARKETING! Genetic defects is a byproduct of the mold not the reason for their success.

Can anyone explain how the cattle industry as a whole would be weaker if this was to happen? Individually (show, club, breed, commercial)? This is by no means a pet peeve of mine. I don't want to mess with genetic defects in my heard so I buy clean heifers and don't use infected bulls right now but the topic does interest me in the fact that I can't figure out how this is better for the cattle industry as a whole to have genetic defects around?

 

[trevorgreycattleco]

I can't see how it would weaker. Do genetic defect cattle grow better? If it wasn't for the big bone and lots of hair, they wouldn't be desired. What does bigger bone and more hair bring to the table as a added benefit for producing beef cattle?