We are changing our herd away from Shorthorn

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b_kackley

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That is great and I do agree that most short horns are not hard calving. In my area almost all the shorthorns left are being used in club calf operations. Most of these do not care if they pull calves. Some don't even care if they cut them out the side. There are some big calves out of Angus as well as all other breeds. In my experiences, and I can only speak for myself the Angus have always come easier with both weight and shape coming into the equation. I have had to pull both Angus and Shorthorn calves. On the average more Shorthorns than Angus. (local herds)
Regardless of that is the fact that I have taken red and black calves to market all within 50lbs of each other and I will consistently get docked 15 to 25 dollars a hundred. It is a fact! I have the records to prove it. I am not saying it is right just that that is the way it is. In fact I have taken red calves that were better in every way than my black or black white face calves and I still got less. I now keep red calves to eat or to sell as freezer beef. I am not bashing a particular breed. Just stating how those breeds are perceived by commercial cattle operations around me. Also just stating the facts from the local stockyards. I do understand that regionally things differ. I do hope that buyers some day realize that it is whats under the skin that counts. Until then I understand wanting to switch and will plug along with my Black white face calves.
 

aj

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There are examples of bankers making a color decision. I had a banker lean on me once.........he said that a black cow was worth an extra 100 bucks......as a collateral issue. If bankers start pressuring people to go black.......they have alot of leverage. This was in Kansas,USA.
 

knabe

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aj said:
There are examples of bankers making a color decision. I had a banker lean on me once.........he said that a black cow was worth an extra 100 bucks......as a collateral issue. If bankers start pressuring people to go black.......they have alot of leverage. This was in Kansas,USA.


reminds me of a time before the housing crisis, liar loans and when 20% down was the norm.


of course the bankers, government and the people who wanted to live beyond their means had other ideas. the bankers of course sold the loans to the taxpayer and market prices got distorted.
 

lcattleco.

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I made the same transition, away from shorthorns.  Best decision I ever made financially.  Raised a couple of national champion females in the 90's as a teenager-early 20's.  They where home raised genetics with little investment.  Now I raise show steers and maine-angus and sim-angus cattle.  Since my transition, profits way up, problems way down!
 

Limiman12

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I Agree that the black hide fetish is insane.  I bought some black baldy pairs with what appeared to be Hereford sired calves at side.  Just having some white on the legs/neck got them sorted out of the rest of our calves and sold at a 20-30 cent discount.  To the same buyer that bought the rest of our calves btw.....  25 cents times 480......  Dad had a buyer tell him straight up the other day that the packing plant they send stuff to will pay 3-5 dollars per hundred weight if they were black because they could be CAB.  Mind you we haven't had a Angus bull on the farm since the last man killer we had thirty five years ago, but our calves can be sold as "Certified angus beef" if they are black.    What a joke.
 

Andyva

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If someone was to make some shorthorns that were 15/16ths high quality shorthorn with solid black hides, I think they would sell pretty well to the commercial cattlemen. Most people that have the resources in shorthorn genetics to do that are already doing pretty well selling fluffy club calves. Doesn't matter that the shorthorn association will only call a black animal 1/2. The only thing the commercial cattleman wants is a pedigree, no matter what color or prefix, just so long as it can give something to base EPDs on and give an idea as to ancestry. The main thing is to ensure that if something doesn't click we want to make sure and never breed to any of "that" again. That's why the quality needs to be there, not just the hide.
 

librarian

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When I read about Scottish cattle in the early days, I will often see that "blacks are the best feeders". This would be in reference to Kyloe or Highland cattle, or mixed Northern groups that drovers were taking south to buyers in England.
I always thought this was just a tale that made it easy to move black cattle of dubious origin. Think of cattle raiding as a way of life and it's easy to understand that cattle with unusual markings are hard to hide in a gathered herd.
So placing a premium on black camo an old trick.
 

linnettejane

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knickles said:
Let me first say, I personally think that Shorthorn cattle are the best looking show cattle there are and over the years we have enjoyed showing them in Kentucky.  And everyone knows that not every heifer and bull are going to be show cattle.  A large part of any herd is going to end up at the stockyards for sale simply because they are not good enough to show and are not considered replacements.  I dont have any problem with that since it is part of the business.  However, that is where the problem lies.  In Kentucky there is absolutely no commercial market for Shorthorn cattle.  Sure they will take them, but the discount per head is enormous.  We sell at a very big stock yard in central KY and every time for the past few years our cattle have looked pound for pound as good as "black" coated cattle and yet we get discounted at least $100 dollars per head.  I have asked them why this is happening and the reply "they aren't black and that's what they want on market."  We have been slowly incorporating Angus and Simmi into our herd beecause of this and as of yesterday's poor sale numbers again with heavy discounts because of coat color, that was all we needed to finally say "enough is enough".  We are going to be switching to Angus and Simmi cattle over the next year.  Do we like doing this? No, but business is business and we must generate comparable income as other farmers do.  The Shorthorn industry has really done nothing to fix this issue in Kentucky and I attended at meeting where this issue was discussed with the Secretary when he came to ASA, yet nothing has been done.  Something sure  needs to be done to remedy this issue.  This is just our feelings and again, we love Shorthorns, but money is money and we have to follow it to survive in this business.

I feel your pain...the yards around here are extremely prejudice to shorthorns also...I got sick of watching poorer quality black hided cattle bring as much as 50-75 cents more than my colored shorthorns, its sad I got to the point I didnt mention what breed they were...just bulls, steers or heifers...last load I took had 2 white purebred shorthorn heifers... they asked me what they were, I said heifers, when I got the ticket it was marked charolais...best prices I ever got! whatever!
so we've switched over to a black angus bull on the purebred shorthorn cows...im keeping a few of the black heifers to add to the herd...what I don't sell off the farm, will be interesting to see how they do at the yards...most are solid black...a few blue roans...but I just cant let my shorthorn cows go...their docility keeps me hanging on...

on a side note...is it just me or does it seem like the ky beef expo shorthorn show and sale gets smaller every year?
 

Limiman12

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knabe said:
librarian said:
Marbling, I've heard, is primarily a function of age.


doubtful

A patient raises Wagu. Or however it is spelled.  They have done some research or testing and found that marbling at least in Wagu is linked to nutrition of the calf in the first 60-90 days......  Something like that.    That goes with a long time red angus breeder that told a mutual friend that through the years he has noticed certain calf crops produce all good heifers, and other years calves from same makings all the heifers will be lousy milkers.    If there is a link between marbling and milk fat content like people that say jerseys are great butcher calves these two statements seem to pass the sniff test.  If good nutrition/energy early makes a calf more likely to marble, it would make since that the same calf crops heifer mates would put more fat into their milk as well.    I know in humans the time to make more muscle cells is before age two, after that Excercise makes existing cells larger, not more cells.    Cattle and humans are both mammals so perhaps their is a similar link.....  Kobe/veil beef are kept stalled correct?  Would encourage fat cell formation over Excercise producing more muscle fibers.    Like I said, I don't have any proof or studies of any of that but just some stuff that seems to make since if you look at it knowing the pieces of info that I have learned or been told whatever.  Passes the sniff test to me anyway.

But I still think CAB is fraudulent marketing.
 

Doc

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linnettejane said:
on a side note...is it just me or does it seem like the ky beef expo shorthorn show and sale gets smaller every year?

LJ, yes it seems to be. With that being said, about all the expo's have been smaller this year. IMO there is 2 main reasons: 1- when cattle prices are high, it has always been tough to get people to consign to sales. They say that why go to the trouble if they can get X for them at the yards? #2 - Internet - between on line sales, facebook, etc. more and more people are selling stuff right off the farm. At TN expo we do everything we can to keep costs down to make it more appealing to consignors. We have 4 pens for unhaltered females, I manage the sale myself at no cost to the consignors, only advertise in the Shorthorn Country, it is a no fit show and sale for us( that alone helps bring a lot of the consignors, they know they don't have to hire extra help on sale day to get cattle ready). Iowa expo was really down this year. It is a major commitment to consign to these expo's and I applaud and say thank you to everyone that does.
 

trevorgreycattleco

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Andyva said:
If someone was to make some shorthorns that were 15/16ths high quality shorthorn with solid black hides, I think they would sell pretty well to the commercial cattlemen. Most people that have the resources in shorthorn genetics to do that are already doing pretty well selling fluffy club calves. Doesn't matter that the shorthorn association will only call a black animal 1/2. The only thing the commercial cattleman wants is a pedigree, no matter what color or prefix, just so long as it can give something to base EPDs on and give an idea as to ancestry. The main thing is to ensure that if something doesn't click we want to make sure and never breed to any of "that" again. That's why the quality needs to be there, not just the hide.



I sure hope folks don't turn this breed black. Solid red is bad enough. I think lots of high quality cattle will and are being eliminated because of color alone. I'll never understand why it takes a solid colored animal for a "cattleman" to be able to tell if it's a quality animal or not. The roan of shorthorns is a highly useable marketing avenue moving forward to me. If numbers of actual shorthorns would grow.
 

librarian

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I think CAB only has to be 51% black hided. The other standards are all about quality and grade.
If we strive to consistently grade in the top percent, then blue roans should eventually bring a premium from savvy CAB buyers. I don't understand why they don't right now.

 

Andyva

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Cattle buyers will use any excuse they can to give you less money. The two biggest things that shorthorns have going against them are Holsteins and Longhorns. A roan shorthorn "might be" a longhorn. A red calf with white spots "might be" part Holstein. I know that anyone who has been around cattle for five minutes knows the difference, but it is an excuse they can use. Shorthorn is a maternal breed. Keep shorthorn cows and breed to a black bull. Breed the top 10% to a high quality AI sire for replacements. Or, breed to a black bull for a few years and then take your lumps and use a shorthorn bull for your replacements for a couple years. If you have a few black cows running around, your whole calf crop won't be red. Everybody always cries about losing money on red cattle, the way I always figured as long as I have a calf with his feet pointing the right way, (down instead of up) I've got more money than I had.
 

Doc

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Andyva said:
Cattle buyers will use any excuse they can to give you less money. The two biggest things that shorthorns have going against them are Holsteins and Longhorns. A roan shorthorn "might be" a longhorn. A red calf with white spots "might be" part Holstein. I know that anyone who has been around cattle for five minutes knows the difference, but it is an excuse they can use. Shorthorn is a maternal breed. Keep shorthorn cows and breed to a black bull. Breed the top 10% to a high quality AI sire for replacements. Or, breed to a black bull for a few years and then take your lumps and use a shorthorn bull for your replacements for a couple years. If you have a few black cows running around, your whole calf crop won't be red. Everybody always cries about losing money on red cattle, the way I always figured as long as I have a calf with his feet pointing the right way, (down instead of up) I've got more money than I had.

I agree !!
 

Lucky_P

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You got that right, Andy.
I've had some Pinzgauer-cross cattle, way back when...they were great cows, I love the look, and would like to breed some PZ crosses again...but the buyers here would literally STEAL them as a 'Longhorn-cross'.

Lots of red-carrier cows in the herd here, so I'm getting quite a few red calves from Shorthorn bulls - even one with quite a lot of chrome this fall(dam probably is a carrier of the Simmental spotting gene, in addition to the recessive red).
Fortunately, demand has been good enough the last couple of years that the reds are selling right there with the blacks - and I like red cows enough that I'm gonna keep rolling with the Shorthorns - and some of the Simmental sires I'm using are red or hetero black...so more red in the mix.
I can always make all the calves black...if I have to.
 

librarian

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Lucky, thank you for the links.
The second link cited another paper
Meat Science And Muscle Biology Symposium: Developmental programming in cattle: Consequences for growth, efficiency, carcass, muscle, and beef quality characteristics
Author(s):
Robinson, D. L. , Cafe, L. M. ,Greenwood, P. L.
J. Anim. Sci. 2013. 91:1428–1442.
https://www.animalsciencepublications.org/publications/jas/articles/91/3/1428#ref-28

And that paper cited this one (Funston is doing interesting work, wow)
Funston, R. N.,  J. A. Musgrave,  T. L. Meyer, and D. M. Larson. 2012b. Effect of calving distribution on beef cattle progeny performance. J. Anim. Sci. 90:5118–5121. [Web of Science]
http://cel.webofknowledge.com/InboundService.do?product=CEL&SID=1B4TrbKXqEK7rkTExxp&UT=WOS%3A000319668000048&SrcApp=PARTNER_APP&action=retrieve&Init=Yes&SrcAuth=agrocropsoil&Func=Frame&customersID=agrocropsoil&IsProductCode=Yes&mode=FullRecord

And in the "other factors" section near the end, there is a part about calves born early in the
season (if I read it right) marble better. Apart from that they might be out of AI bulls, why might this be? Because winter cows are fed a higher energy ration than pasture calving cows? Something to do with temperature and fat?
I'm curious about people's experience and theories about this.

Maybe it's environment at conception? Hours of daylight?
Or about composition of colostrum at birth?
 

librarian

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Found out some things about environment and fat composition, but not that much about environment and quality grade.

http://www.livestocklibrary.com.au/bitstream/handle/1234/20177/MARB01-Tume-Environmental_factors_on_fatty_acid.pdf?sequence=1
Environmental factors on fatty acid composition and its impact on the assessment of marbling
Tume, RK

http://www.livestocklibrary.com.au/bitstream/handle/1234/20174/MARB01-Pethick-Manipulation_of_marbling.pdf?sequence=1
Growth, development and nutritional manipulation of marbling in cattle
Pethick, DW; Harper, GS; Oddy, H
 

justintime

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Andyva said:
Cattle buyers will use any excuse they can to give you less money. The two biggest things that shorthorns have going against them are Holsteins and Longhorns. A roan shorthorn "might be" a longhorn. A red calf with white spots "might be" part Holstein. I know that anyone who has been around cattle for five minutes knows the difference, but it is an excuse they can use. Shorthorn is a maternal breed. Keep shorthorn cows and breed to a black bull. Breed the top 10% to a high quality AI sire for replacements. Or, breed to a black bull for a few years and then take your lumps and use a shorthorn bull for your replacements for a couple years. If you have a few black cows running around, your whole calf crop won't be red. Everybody always cries about losing money on red cattle, the way I always figured as long as I have a calf with his feet pointing the right way, (down instead of up) I've got more money than I had.


When we were operating our feedlot, for several years I had a cattle dealers licence and bond and I used to sit in the auction marts along with the buyers and I saw many cases of absolute theft. I became convinced ( and still am) that most cattle buyers really don't have a good grasp on what a good feeding animal is supposed to look like. Most cattle buyers are very opinionated by color and it is oftentimes laughable. I have oftentimes seen a set of Hereford calves come into the sale ring, and one or two calves that do not have the feathering on their necks be cut out of the bunch. Oftentimes they were the best calves but they would sell for a couple cents less because they were no longer in a bigger bunch. Total stupidity.
I oftentimes sat beside a long time Jewish cattle buyer and I learned much from him over the years. One thing he told me, that has stuck with me to this day, is that a person will almost always make more money buying cattle than they ever will selling cattle. He also told me no matter whether the markets are high or low, there will always be bargains in every sale. The trick is to be confident enough in your own judgment to recognize the deals and e ready to buy. I remember sitting by him one day and as I was trying to buy some feeder calves, he leaned over and asked me if I would like to make $2000? I said of course I would like that, to which he said " go home and don't buy anything. " He said the best money I could make was not buying that day because a couple buyers were driving the prices too high that day. He said I should wait and be ready to buy in the next sale, as they buyers would have either filled their orders by then, or be realizing the mistakes they had made.
The color issue in cattle is to me, as outrageous as the racism issues we see in people. There is no basis for it and it is plain WRONG!  If you like the cattle your Shorthorns, and are being discriminated against on the markets, I would suggest that rather than just allowing this to happen, to find another market. For example, I used to supply 4 local abbatoirs with their cattle, and every one of them as some time has told me how the Shorthorns I delivered to them had such excellent carcasses. In time, every one of them were asking me to supply them with Shorthorn beef. One of these abbatoirs even started to promote "Shorthorn Beef" and advertised that if you have not tried Shorthorn beef, you were missing out on a great beef experience.  I also found that here, the discounts were oftentimes mainly at the auction mart level. Many cattle feeders preferred to have calves delivered directly to them as the sickness levels were greatly reduced, and I have found  most cattle feeders are much better at appreciating good cattle regardless of color than the cattle buyers are. The cattle feeders will oftentimes be willing to pay a premium for good cattle delivered to them. I realize that many people don't have many large feed lots in their area, but it may be well worthwhile for groups of calves to be assembled so full loads can be sent together.
As I mentioned earlier, many western Canadian feeders ship many loads to the US for slaughter. That is just how the packing industry has positioned itself in the North American market place. I have asked several cattle feeders if their Shorthorn fats get discounted when slaughtered. Most of them say that they don't qualify for CAB premiums but they have higher percentages of them grade choice and prime so they feel they are being well paid for them.
The black color trend is probably never going to chance as it is just too big now especially in the US. A neighbor of mine, just returned home from spending his winter in southern California. He said that he only saw two herds of none black cattle from California to the Canadian border.
There is usually a solution to most any problem. If you are getting discounted for cattle of color, then you may have to start looking for a workable solution.
 

hamburgman

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-XBAR- said:
Medium Rare said:
-XBAR- said:
How many cows are you running?  $100 discount per head? So what's that 2 grand a year for you??  If that margin is the determinant then there are some substantial underlying issues you need to address long prior to going in another direction.

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hamburgman said:
-XBAR- said:
How many cows are you running?  $100 discount per head? So what's that 2 grand a year for you??  If that margin is the determinant then there are some substantial underlying issues you need to address long prior to going in another direction.

Over the last 20 years profit over $100/pair has came only a handful of times xbar.  That $100 in many states is the difference between making an average profit vs losing serious money.

This is a joke, right?    I've seen calculations like these time and time again and every time they factor in non production cost.  Almost silly to try to present that a guy running 300 cows is only making 30 grand.  Granted my cows and land are paid for - as is the case with most cow/calf producers-  but I cleared about 3x  what this chart suggests the average was last year-  and that's with SHs.


I can agree XBAR that good operations have definitely been beating the average, hence the definition of average I guess.

What are you considering/talking about when you say non-production cost?  I have just seen some stuff by people that gets confusing because expenses to raise a calf I consider production cost.

Also a while back we were discussing getting 1500 for a recip calf, which you said was 50% more than what the average calf was bringing.  You claimed your 5 weights didn't crack 2 bucks if I remember right, but you should be close to 3 bucks this year especially if you are in wheat country. 

I must say I would really be scratching my head if I was leaving 100 bucks a calf on the table, around here that tends to be the difference between vaccinated and weaned calves vs naive bawlers.
 
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