What would the Shorthorn breed look like today if Improver was never imported

[librarian]

My mistake, sorry, mine go to 57 and three generations back, so that's not "full" of anything.
No TH though.
Good thread from last spring http://www.steerplanet.com/bb/the-big-show/deerpark-leader-16th-and-d-seamus-4th/15/

 

[mark tenenbaum]

Double Stuff and Heetseeker changed the club calf deal forever-I know there are other good Chi lines like Who etc-BUT they are da men-PERIOD-I dont think you will ever see a change that dramatic again-been there dun that. Stuff came in 1993-1995 seeker  in 1997-Stuff got TH from Irish Pride and PHA from Stinger-or both from Stinger. Seeker got TH from AF Improver 145-his dam was a purebred Shorthorn. Looking back-I think in terms of size etc-those two bulls would bemaybe more usefull  than the extreme pud terminal bulls that evolved. In fact-Double Stuff is still going strong.Steermaker was almost a 7 frame-and thicker than anything today other than maybe some maines,and limmis-The problem with him was he sometimes made birth canals in his daughters dangerously small-I will use him somewhere again-There just isnt a Shorthorn made like him these days thats got any scale: hes clean,and not a terrible calver for the most part.Dont have a handle on Mr DS.the latest club calf culprit-as Ray Stevens said in "santa Claus is watchin yew" Hes everywhere Hes everywhere O0

 

[aj]

I did a little pedigree searching. Deerpark Improver is listed as dsc...............tka outcast is x4046304 and listed as th carrier................Doublestuff shows no ds testing results..

 

[knabe]

Double stuff's initials are ds.


How much more hate is in you?

 

[librarian]

Here is a different picture of Improver from that old thread (thanks) and one of Deerpark Leader.
Leader is pretty neat, I do not see any defect info with his pedigree. Did he not carry any defects?
Would someone please outline the trajectories of these two bulls?
Also, the feet on Improver and Improver 57 look really small to me. Also the horns are turning down in a way that I don't see much in Shorthorn photos. Overall they both have a somewhat Milking Devon look. Could the Irish pedigrees be that creative?
Caption for black and white photo:
Duke of Roxbury 9180, grand champion Devon bull. Eastern States Exposition and Connecticut State Fair, 1927. Owned by Connecticut Agricultural College.
http://www.milkingdevons.org/picold.html

 

[mark tenenbaum]

Improver was thicker than any Devon Ive ever seen-If he had hair in those pictures-he would show today-Its no wonder the club calf producers in Oklahoma and Texas used him and Len Ru TA Leader : Th etc or not-He has a very attractive pattern and muscle-particularly compared to the socalled hardoing "native" dairy rats-that were nothing but a bag of bones and pushing 6 feet tall and undergoing what has become an anorexic look.-The Milking Shorthorns of the turn of the century were thick stout cattle-and the ones now are as frail looking as a deer-I dont know how they could have changed them that bad-but they did.O0

 

[aj]

The showring changed the Milkers. Virgil Wegener had some thick dual purpose Shorthorns at HUBS in the late 70's and 80's. Steve is still holding that program together....Steve Wasburn.....son in law.

 

[librarian]

Thanks, I think I will go on a quest for the old milkers. I agree the modern type is a wisp of what went before.
The Milking Devon idea was far fetched, but it turned on the light that maybe Deerpark cattle were milking type. Who would not want a cow like this white one? Except maybe Xbar, just kidding
Leader is not unlike the roan bull and the reds are similar to Improver.
And lastly, a Deerpark female, Tulip, from the cited thread.
So, crossing strains, heterosis....a good idea with a bad allele.
https://books.google.com/books?id=uvAIAQAAIAAJ&dq=Milking%20shorthorn&pg=PP3#v=onepage&q=Milking%20shorthorn&f=false

 

[GM]

Thanks, I think I will go on a quest for the old milkers. I agree the modern type is a wisp of what went before.
The Milking Devon idea was far fetched, but it turned on the light that maybe Deerpark cattle were milking type. Who would not want a cow like this white one? Except maybe Xbar, just kidding
Leader is not unlike the roan bull and the reds are similar to Improver.
And lastly, a Deerpark female, Tulip, from the cited thread.
So, crossing strains, heterosis....a good idea with a bad allele.
https://books.google.com/books?id=uvAIAQAAIAAJ&dq=Milking%20shorthorn&pg=PP3#v=onepage&q=Milking%20shorthorn&f=false

From what I've read, the Shorthorns in Ireland were primarily formed from the Booth type.  The Deerpark herd was a small milking herd (25-30 head) that goes back to the early 1900's. (They purchased the original Skarlet cow in 1919).  The type they developed to suit their needs were large framed, big boned, milk yields over 1,000 gallons, high butterfat, very durable animals raised outdoors on grass, and could wean really big calves.  Cows were 1200-1600 lbs, Bulls were 2400-3000lbs.  They were outsiders who did their own thing (along with Highfield).  They didn't use scotch Bulls and didn't partake in the breed improvement programs offered in Ireland that aimed to propogate approved Bulls to improve the quality of the declining national shorthorn herd.  They served a need in the US for frame, bone, and style among other things.  There also happened to be some skeletons in the closet of one of their Bulls which in turn has ensured that the Deerpark name and story will live on for generations to come.  It's been 40+ years and shorthorn breeders still love talking about it.

 

 

[Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR]

Maybe Ayrshires...not Milking Devon!
Irish guys were at least MILKING guys.

 

[Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR]

If Improver no was existed on USA....I think that breeders would have today an animal like a black Chi.....maybe Improver can save the breed for this.....unfortunatelly that the hero was so bad!!!

Also....WHO people used so bad shaped bull!! Is like a steer for me, a BAD steer.

Shorthorn breeders from US and Canada were really desperates to use so kind beast!

 

[librarian]

sí, se parece más a la bastarda de una cabra de un Galloway

 

[GM]

Its easy to bash old pictures and trends.  Guess you had to be there.

 

[jaimiediamond]

I wasn't going to weigh in on this thread as what has been done is done.  Everything is now in hindsight and what ifs solve absolutely nothing.  I do believe that breeders use animals as building blocks and each of the offspring that was retained was used to enhance each individual breeder's program.  If there was no Improver cattlemen would have used something else to reach the goal.  Shorthorns are one of many breeds that went through fads and Improver was not involved in most of the other breeds. 

 

[aj]

I would disagree with jamie on this one. Improver is responsible for "the look".......the th look in the club calf deal. Improver is why th is a concern.......and tested for in several breeds. They test for th in shorthorns,maines,simmentals, red angus, chianina and what am I missing. Improver affected all breeds in the USA in my opinion. There is no doubt in my mind th has drifted into herfords and limousins also. Because th carriers have the look. The ds stuff I don't know much about. Did heatwave carry ds? I would assume ds has been carried into all breeds if heatwave was dsc. The bad thing about ds is it might not be discovered in say the Simmis unless they are bred to pha carriers in the field.

 

[librarian]

It's true, life is full of what ifs. We look back to understand where we are at this moment.
Something changed in Great Britain, and I don't know my history well enough to summarize it. Probably social, political and industrial changes...but by the end of his life Amos Cruickshank was importing Irish cattle to feed out. He hated them and missed his Scotch cattle, but that was what was necessary at that time to make money. Probably frame size was the motivator...so it's the way of the world. Personally, I wish the breed had gone to those pockets of old milkers in Ontario and Alberta for frame, but as a wise man has pointed out, I wasn't there.

 

[GM]

I would disagree with jamie on this one. Improver is responsible for "the look".......the th look in the club calf deal. Improver is why th is a concern.......and tested for in several breeds. They test for th in shorthorns,maines,simmentals, red angus, chianina and what am I missing. Improver affected all breeds in the USA in my opinion. There is no doubt in my mind th has drifted into herfords and limousins also. Because th carriers have the look. The ds stuff I don't know much about. Did heatwave carry ds? I would assume ds has been carried into all breeds if heatwave was dsc. The bad thing about ds is it might not be discovered in say the Simmis unless they are bred to pha carriers in the field.

AJ, your provocative questions and posts are entertaining.  Even the controversial ones stimulate thought and provide opportunities to learn.  I think you're right for club calves, but your conversation started with a question about the shorthorn breed.  If Trump was TH and DSC you'd be 100% right (not that the breed revolves around him, but his genetics are the most visible.) TH isn't the recipe for success in the purebred showring like it is for the club calf ring. I'm sure you don't think Improver is responsible for the look of Rodeo Drive, Trump, Sonny, Mona Lisa, Nobody's Fool, Cumberland, Cherri, Augusta Pride, etc?  You might be right about Rose even though she was TH free but there was the connection through Tulip 5th and she was crossed up VERY successfully w Improver 57 in the mid90's.  Or, you might be inferring that because of the Improver "look" that became popular in the 90's these other genetics accelerated, through selection, the development of a similar type (pretty profile, straighter back leg, big bone, big butt, wide top, good hair, moderate size) that could compete.  And, they did so without knowing about TH and the improver connection since it wasn't discovered yet.

 

[aj]

I love history.....anthroplogy......I enjoy debates......discussions.....debates.....brain exercises. I think there are probably ten story lines coming out the Improver saga. I like to push a beach ball out there across the sand and see who kicks it back. I hate bumper sticker politics. For instance on the Keystone pipeline deal. I think there are probably 20 pros for and 20 negs against. You gotta weigh the evidence....make a decision.....    There are people out there that know things I don't.......I want access to it. I like to call these boards discussion boards. I hate it when then become propaganda boards for a breeder.....or a breed. I'm weird I guess.

 

[aj]

I wanna know if heatwave is dsc. I wanna know if crossbreds can be tested for dsc. I wanna know if any heatwave sons are dsc's. I wanna know if the the ABS Red Angus bull that read about last night is any good......the one from Australia.

 

[mark tenenbaum]

I think bulls like Stinger and any number of Fullblood maines used as far back as the Irish breeding in the days before testing played a part too.Double Stuff wouldnt have looked like he did without the stinger-And to be part fullblood-was one of the squarest made that I saw in my travels. To each his own-I loved the carrier look when I first saw them-After years of goofy looking hardoing cattle.  O0