Whats the focus of your breeding program?
- Thread starter Diamond
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trevorgreycattleco said:
My name is Robert Chambers - and my user name isn't an attempt to "hide". It's my understanding its still best for internet security purposes not to use your full name name for account ID's etc. That's the only reason I don't. My user name comes from the original email address convention my company used - an eight letter address with up to six letters from your last name with the first two of your first name.
If you read many posts on here (including the ones in this one), you'd realize I'm not a trader in any sense of the word. Not that I think there is anything wrong with most of them.
Where does the name trevorgreycattleco come from?
justintime
Well-known member
Trevor,I doubt very much if you could talk about a ton of breeders with any accuracy, and I would say that a public place such as this is NOT the place to do so, even if you were an expert on someone else's breeding program. Like you, I know a pile of breeders names and bits and pieces of their breeding programs, and I have met many fellow breeders over the years. But as chambero has mentioned, I also know many of my neighbor's and their breeding programs, but I would not consider myself knowledgeable enough about how they make their decisions to comment on them.
I think some of the comments lately on SP come close to crossing the line of affecting some reputable breeders in very derogatory ways, and that is very dangerous grounds. I think we should stick with discussing cattle related topics and the occasional " non cattle" topics and not get into negative discussion about fellow breeders. If you do make a personal statement, make sure you have your facts straight and not just be making a personal opinion. This is why several people , including myself, jumped on you for what you said about shortdawg. You have absolutely no proof of why he entered the cow in question in a sale and I wonder if you ever considered that certain breeders will enter cattle in a consignment sale to simply help out the sale with some cattle with good pedigrees and good breeding ability. I know in my case, I have been talked into consigning some cattle to a sale that I was wanting to retain myself. Some of us, do not just put our culls in a sale, and that is basically what you accused shortdawg of doing. He said this cow was not producing what he wanted to produce, which is a far cry from saying she was a poor producing cow. Each of us has the freedom to breed for whatever we want to try to produce. You were not jumped on from what you said about this cow, but you were jumped on because of what you said about the person involved. That part, is simply none of your business or none of mine either.
I think some of the comments lately on SP come close to crossing the line of affecting some reputable breeders in very derogatory ways, and that is very dangerous grounds. I think we should stick with discussing cattle related topics and the occasional " non cattle" topics and not get into negative discussion about fellow breeders. If you do make a personal statement, make sure you have your facts straight and not just be making a personal opinion. This is why several people , including myself, jumped on you for what you said about shortdawg. You have absolutely no proof of why he entered the cow in question in a sale and I wonder if you ever considered that certain breeders will enter cattle in a consignment sale to simply help out the sale with some cattle with good pedigrees and good breeding ability. I know in my case, I have been talked into consigning some cattle to a sale that I was wanting to retain myself. Some of us, do not just put our culls in a sale, and that is basically what you accused shortdawg of doing. He said this cow was not producing what he wanted to produce, which is a far cry from saying she was a poor producing cow. Each of us has the freedom to breed for whatever we want to try to produce. You were not jumped on from what you said about this cow, but you were jumped on because of what you said about the person involved. That part, is simply none of your business or none of mine either.
This is absolutely pathetic, has this what steer planet has become, an argument among members on the stupidest grounds. Face it, one cow doesn’t make or brake a herd, and no matter how nice or nasty you are, there will be farms that swear by you, if your producing the kind of cattle they want. Not to mention people strive for different things, unless that cow was tossing ten legged non-gaining junk there’s no reason why she cant be entered into a sale if the information provided is correct. This may not be your ideals but that’s what’s nice about this country, is we do have choices on how we go about our lives. You know this puts a truly unpleasant taste in my mouth, its seems that ever since we lost 'red' on here the forums have gone to the dogs, and everyone of you who are doing that, should be ashamed. Farmers are a dieing breed, be it hobby or a profession, you think we could get along enough to have simple conversations! Instead we bark down each other when they do something not to our personal liking? How horrible.
The plain fact of the matter is that probably 99.9% of all of us on here have very good programs relatively speaking - compared to the average cattle herd. Most commercial herds are pretty small, have no defined breeding season, and calves from which are just hauled to the sale barn when its convenient. No working, no vaccinations, no nothing.
As part of my day job, I was at a very large ranch in NE Texas this winter - about 15,000 acres on the Red River. Very old ranch but new owners had probably had it a few years. They ran mostly yearlings on wheat - pretty much what some of you'd call a zoo herd of calves - every color in the world, every cross imaginable, most with ear. They also had some cows. Part of the ranch had what was obviously an old feedlot with maybe 20 big pens. There'd be around 20 live cows in varying condition in these pens - along with five or six dead ones in every pen - that had been there rotting for at least a month based on their state of decomposition. It had been wet, but this place probably had 10 tractors on it and they could have drug those animals out of there. I've never been so disgusted and felt sorry for animals. It reminded me of a bovine version of Auschwitz.
That may have been an extreme case, but it's not that atypical of the commercial world some of you hold in such high regard. My dad used to be part owner of a big sale barn out in West Texas. My memory of helping him is really the extremely crude people I remember being around. Of having to work cattle in pens that first had to be picked up off the ground and propped up with boards. You just had to hope a wild cow didn't hit it too hard. Mixing various medicines together in some kind of cocktail that was referred to as a blood mary. Sitting in sales watching an uncle buy cattle by the truckload that were a step from the grave because they were cheap and if he could keep them alive, they had nowhere to go but up.
I was at a large commercial brangus ranch in Fort Worth a few years ago. They'd bought a bunch of bred heifers out of Florida. They probably had 20 people working their pens. I asked them what was happening and they were right in the middle of calving. Almost every single calf was having to be pulled and half of them were being lost. An absolute calving disaster on several hundred head of heifers. Not a one of them had anything to do with Heat Wave.
A lot of the ranches in our area buy yearlings by the truckload out of Florida, Georgia, and Louisiana. Again - a bunch of zoo animals bought because their cheap, skinny, and will gain weight on wheat. They lose plenty to sickness till the vaccines kick in and they get a little weight on them.
THAT is the commercial world that MOST ranchers know and work in. The best one one of those calves won't hold a candle to our worst cow or any of your worst cows either. Those of you that don't understand that show how little you've been around the real cattle business. If that was the only aspect of cattle I could be around, I flat wouldn't mess with it. I like the high end commercial business that plays right in to raising show steers also.
We are all dealing with very good animals relative to the true average cow. In regards to Shortdawg's cow that he was criticized for selling, I went back and found the old post talking about it. She was a 3N1. There is no better deal to be had at a sale. You can see how she milks, what kind of calf she has at her side, and you know she's fertile cause she has another calf in her. Worrying about anything else is pole vaulting over mouse turds. By definitiion only a very few animals out of anyone's herd are going to be show quality and truly exceptional. It takes numbers to consistently raise show cattle - along with depth of quality in your herd. But they all work just fine from a commercial stand point.
As part of my day job, I was at a very large ranch in NE Texas this winter - about 15,000 acres on the Red River. Very old ranch but new owners had probably had it a few years. They ran mostly yearlings on wheat - pretty much what some of you'd call a zoo herd of calves - every color in the world, every cross imaginable, most with ear. They also had some cows. Part of the ranch had what was obviously an old feedlot with maybe 20 big pens. There'd be around 20 live cows in varying condition in these pens - along with five or six dead ones in every pen - that had been there rotting for at least a month based on their state of decomposition. It had been wet, but this place probably had 10 tractors on it and they could have drug those animals out of there. I've never been so disgusted and felt sorry for animals. It reminded me of a bovine version of Auschwitz.
That may have been an extreme case, but it's not that atypical of the commercial world some of you hold in such high regard. My dad used to be part owner of a big sale barn out in West Texas. My memory of helping him is really the extremely crude people I remember being around. Of having to work cattle in pens that first had to be picked up off the ground and propped up with boards. You just had to hope a wild cow didn't hit it too hard. Mixing various medicines together in some kind of cocktail that was referred to as a blood mary. Sitting in sales watching an uncle buy cattle by the truckload that were a step from the grave because they were cheap and if he could keep them alive, they had nowhere to go but up.
I was at a large commercial brangus ranch in Fort Worth a few years ago. They'd bought a bunch of bred heifers out of Florida. They probably had 20 people working their pens. I asked them what was happening and they were right in the middle of calving. Almost every single calf was having to be pulled and half of them were being lost. An absolute calving disaster on several hundred head of heifers. Not a one of them had anything to do with Heat Wave.
A lot of the ranches in our area buy yearlings by the truckload out of Florida, Georgia, and Louisiana. Again - a bunch of zoo animals bought because their cheap, skinny, and will gain weight on wheat. They lose plenty to sickness till the vaccines kick in and they get a little weight on them.
THAT is the commercial world that MOST ranchers know and work in. The best one one of those calves won't hold a candle to our worst cow or any of your worst cows either. Those of you that don't understand that show how little you've been around the real cattle business. If that was the only aspect of cattle I could be around, I flat wouldn't mess with it. I like the high end commercial business that plays right in to raising show steers also.
We are all dealing with very good animals relative to the true average cow. In regards to Shortdawg's cow that he was criticized for selling, I went back and found the old post talking about it. She was a 3N1. There is no better deal to be had at a sale. You can see how she milks, what kind of calf she has at her side, and you know she's fertile cause she has another calf in her. Worrying about anything else is pole vaulting over mouse turds. By definitiion only a very few animals out of anyone's herd are going to be show quality and truly exceptional. It takes numbers to consistently raise show cattle - along with depth of quality in your herd. But they all work just fine from a commercial stand point.
trevorgreycattleco
Well-known member
the name Trevor Grey comes from combining the two middle names of myself and my ex wife. She made up the name and I liked it. We decided to split up because she did not want to live on a farm and I would not sell out. We get along just fine and she helped me start this more than anybody so I kept the name. Chambero I have seen commercial herds like you describe but IMO they are not the norm. Not in my neck of the woods. The commercial guys I know take great pride in their herds but don't want to pay everything associated with raising purebreds. The only guy around here like you described was shut down by the humane society two years ago. You all can hate me all you want it's o.k. Question why I say what I say. Go ahead. It's healthy and I will probably learn something as I already have with your responses. I just think debate is good and all opinions are welcomed. We are all in this business together is very true. Last time I checked, I was the ONLY person my age within 50 miles that is trying to make a living raising cattle. We are a dieing breed. So sorry if I came off like a a--hole but sometimes I see things and I have to ask why. I'm now understanding shortdawg is a nice guy. I am sure he is doing what he feels is best. Just because I say something does not mean you have to believe it or agree with it. I see shorthorn cows go thro sales all the time that really should not be there but they have a paper so they are. I guess thats the nature of the beast. This is a business in the end and I will continue to question things because that is what I do. Maybe the AP cow shortdawg sold will work out good for the new owner. Thats all any of us want anyway right? To be successful and have a good quality of life. Maybe that cow was a bad example, who knows. Shortdawg I am sorry if I offended you at all, I was not setting out to smear you just question why. T <beer>he way I handled it was inmature and if I would have worded it different, maybe this would not have happened.
CAB
Well-known member
Brock the point that you make about the cows sometimes getting passed on in a production sale is true more times than not, but for sure is not true al of the time. It is the reason also that virgin heifers seem to bring somewhat higher prices than the "proven" lots. Buyer beware is the motto that we use. It's not that we won't buy a older lot, but boy we do try to research the product ahead of time otherwise it has to be a bargain,ie. cheap,cheap.
Chambero - enjoyed your well-thought out excellent post - yep the sale barn cattle-trader culture that I also was exposed to as a kid does not bring back fond memories - I was at a large commercial cattle place a few months ago that was selling out that was very similar to what you described in that Red River operation - very sad to see - more buzzards in the area than blackbirds - I suspect that the average poster on here is in the top 1% in regard to animal husbandry and try to do the right thing despite breeding Shorthorns or using Heat Wave 
sue
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Diamond this is a really good post and I am sorry it was HI JACKED. We have been in the Shorthorn business since 1917 - took a break from 79 to 1998. My Great uncle, grand father, father and now my sister and I have all raised Shorthorns. What we strive for is uniformity - using and breeding bullls that produces uniformity regardless. At this point our young cattle are too moderate to really compete but we have customers that appreciate what were doing. We exhibit at National events regardless-Diamond said:
I think there is alot of paper work in Registered cattle so probably when I get much older I will raise Shorthorn or SH X angus and say to heck with papers.
I enjoy animal agriculture and feel regardless of what you're raising it's all good. Again this is a great post.
Yes Sue the thread was hijacked by a pissing contest between "adults" and it has now been replaced with another contest of who can describe the most horrific conditions for livestock - animal abuse, animal neglect, breaking the law (most states have laws re disposal of dead livestock) - so Sammy I will ask you what I asked chambero and didn't get an answer- did you just feel bad for the animals or did you call authorities?
English philosopher Edmund Burke said, ‘The only thing necessary for the triumph [of evil] is for good men to do nothing.’
English philosopher Edmund Burke said, ‘The only thing necessary for the triumph [of evil] is for good men to do nothing.’
I had made some inquiries regarding the cow in question and was planning on putting a bid on her. Unfortunately, a few of my cows got out that morning and, being thoroughly disgusted at cattle, decided I did not want to see another one let alone buy one. Too bad. If my cows had not gotten out I most likely would have bought the cow and could tell you how good she was. (would have shortened this topic considerably, too)
D&L - just got back and saw your question. I did see to it that the situation was corrected but it didn't requir a call to the authorities. I really doubt anyone could have made them do anything, nothing was being starved, just very bad hygiene. Owner corrected it quickly when asked. The intent of my post should have been pretty clear.
The fact is I sold the cow because she was not producing the phenotype I needed for my kids. Any cow that breeds every year and puts a live calf on the ground unassisted will work for most non-show oriented cattle producers. A lot of purebred breeders disperse their mature cow herds (5 yrs old and up) every year. I was honest with the guy and he bought her. I don't think that is bad business at all. Unlike some of you all I do not rely on cattle as my sole source of income. I'm a farmer first, cattleman second. Me and my dad farm about 1350 acres of cotton, peanuts, tobacco, and watermelons so I stay pretty busy aside from the 100 head of cattle that we have. My shortys and show cattle are a small portion of the total operation. My $ is hard earned for sure and I have no reason to expect anyone to purchase anything from me that I can not stand behind. I don't expect the new owner of the AP female to experience any problems with her. If he does I'll stand behind her b/c I'm a man of my word. I guess I'll post on here next year before I sell anything to make sure its OK ?
chambero said:
OK - I am confused - you compare this situation to a concentration camp (probably not appropriate) and then say nothing was being starved - just bad hygiene -but you were never so disgusted and felt sorry for the animals -"the owner corrected it quickly when asked" (I don't even know what that means- if it was as bad as you describe how is it corrected quickly?) and the intent of your post should have been very clear - so your reference to a concentration camp was either a continuation of the pissing match you are having with trevorgrey or you have a very poor understanding of what happened in WWII -
Poor choice of words on my part - I was trying to convey an image of animals living amongst their own dead. I said something to the owner, I was back there a couple of weeks later and things had been cleaned up. If you would like to turn this into an academic argument I'd be happy to take you up on it via PM or email.
Show Heifer
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Chambero, I will be the first to admit I haven't read this entire thread. But did read your post about the commercial herds you have encountered. You said this was "typical for commercial cattleman"
WHAT? ARE YOU KIDDING ME?
I am in the middle of "small commercial cattle country", and for the love of God, I have NEVER seen dead cattle left to rot in a cattle pen. My neighbor isn't much for" high quality feed in front of them all the time", but NEVER seen dead cattle in a pen at his house. I have seen some thin cattle, some that were way too thin for me, (Yes, DL I did talk to the owners about their management!!) but as far as flat out unsanitary conditions, NOPE.
I guess the way I look at it, is I make money from my cattle. That is their job. My job is to help them do that. To accomplish that, I make sure my cattle have adequate food, water, excerise, mineral, health care and shelter (even if it is trees). Anything less is decreasing the possibility of them doing their job, because I am not doing mine.
To say dead decaying animals are "typical" and the "norm" for commercial cattleman is a disgrace. Talk about a huge general sweeping statement that just isn't true....
WHAT? ARE YOU KIDDING ME?
I am in the middle of "small commercial cattle country", and for the love of God, I have NEVER seen dead cattle left to rot in a cattle pen. My neighbor isn't much for" high quality feed in front of them all the time", but NEVER seen dead cattle in a pen at his house. I have seen some thin cattle, some that were way too thin for me, (Yes, DL I did talk to the owners about their management!!) but as far as flat out unsanitary conditions, NOPE.
I guess the way I look at it, is I make money from my cattle. That is their job. My job is to help them do that. To accomplish that, I make sure my cattle have adequate food, water, excerise, mineral, health care and shelter (even if it is trees). Anything less is decreasing the possibility of them doing their job, because I am not doing mine.
To say dead decaying animals are "typical" and the "norm" for commercial cattleman is a disgrace. Talk about a huge general sweeping statement that just isn't true....
Shady Lane
Well-known member
While I have no desire to be involved in the ridiculous argument and banter that has overtaken this thread I would like to point out a much different view point on the issue of selling a mature cow.
First of all, I have never met Shortdawg and I don't know him from Adam or even what his prefix or herd name might be, I have no horse in this race.
Second I don't believe that buying a female from another breeder means that you have to for any reason keep that female until she dies on your farm or becomes burger. That's ridiculous. A cow is no different than any other asset, it's yours to do as you please with it, if you want to sell it, go ahead and sell it, if somebody wishes to buy it you have a completed transaction. Since the cow in question evidentially didn't carry Shortdawg's prefix the buyer would know that he did not raise this female and that this is a bought cow that he wishes to resell. So in my mind there is nothing wrong being done here, all of this is public knowledge for the buyer and the seller.
How is this different then buying a used car for example?
You go and look at a used car you are looking at a car that somebody decided to get rid of for one reason or another. Maybe the previous owners lease was up? Maybe they just wanted something a little different? Maybe the previous owner always trades cars when they reach 50,000 miles? Maybe it burns a quart of oil every 500 miles and the wheels are about to fall off? Or maybe like Shortdawg’s cow it just wasn’t quite right for them and they wished to sell it and get something different. We can’t all keep every car we ever owned and we can’t keep every cow either.
Third, consider the other side of the whole cattle sale scenario.
Every animal entered into the sale or any sale for that matter is an animal that the seller has chosen to "get rid of" for one reason or another much the same as the used car. That reason might be because the seller feels that this is the best thing they have ever produced and they wish to sell it as a marketing tool to promote their herd. Or maybe it’s the best they have and they offer it for sale knowing that animal is likely to bring the most money, we all have bills to pay. This is a business after all.
It’s been said many times that “One man’s junk is another mans treasure”. Since this was a thread asking for peoples “Focus” in their breeding program, its probably pertinent to point out that this cow simply didn’t fit into Shortdawg’s breeding program. This doesn’t mean that she wouldn’t work for somebody else.
I think it would also be a good to point out that in recent years out of one of the more famous and prestigious Shorthorn sales in North America several high sellers in their production sale had previously been used as Recipient Cows.
Just my thoughts on the matter.
First of all, I have never met Shortdawg and I don't know him from Adam or even what his prefix or herd name might be, I have no horse in this race.
Second I don't believe that buying a female from another breeder means that you have to for any reason keep that female until she dies on your farm or becomes burger. That's ridiculous. A cow is no different than any other asset, it's yours to do as you please with it, if you want to sell it, go ahead and sell it, if somebody wishes to buy it you have a completed transaction. Since the cow in question evidentially didn't carry Shortdawg's prefix the buyer would know that he did not raise this female and that this is a bought cow that he wishes to resell. So in my mind there is nothing wrong being done here, all of this is public knowledge for the buyer and the seller.
How is this different then buying a used car for example?
You go and look at a used car you are looking at a car that somebody decided to get rid of for one reason or another. Maybe the previous owners lease was up? Maybe they just wanted something a little different? Maybe the previous owner always trades cars when they reach 50,000 miles? Maybe it burns a quart of oil every 500 miles and the wheels are about to fall off? Or maybe like Shortdawg’s cow it just wasn’t quite right for them and they wished to sell it and get something different. We can’t all keep every car we ever owned and we can’t keep every cow either.
Third, consider the other side of the whole cattle sale scenario.
Every animal entered into the sale or any sale for that matter is an animal that the seller has chosen to "get rid of" for one reason or another much the same as the used car. That reason might be because the seller feels that this is the best thing they have ever produced and they wish to sell it as a marketing tool to promote their herd. Or maybe it’s the best they have and they offer it for sale knowing that animal is likely to bring the most money, we all have bills to pay. This is a business after all.
It’s been said many times that “One man’s junk is another mans treasure”. Since this was a thread asking for peoples “Focus” in their breeding program, its probably pertinent to point out that this cow simply didn’t fit into Shortdawg’s breeding program. This doesn’t mean that she wouldn’t work for somebody else.
I think it would also be a good to point out that in recent years out of one of the more famous and prestigious Shorthorn sales in North America several high sellers in their production sale had previously been used as Recipient Cows.
Just my thoughts on the matter.
I reread again what I wrote and I did a poor job of conveying my point. The intent of my examples as a group was to illustrate that most commercial herds are not hardly managed at all beyond throwing a cheap bull out with cheap cows and letting nature take it's course or trying to put weight on skinny yearlings. I should not have used the first example in the context I did but meant to show it as an example of extreme mismanagement. I also should not have made the camp reference. I guess I listed this example first because it did bother me - and I did do something about it. My overall point is that it's silly to criticize show cattle on here the way that so many people do. There are plenty of much worse examples out there that deserve the criticism. I apologize to anyone I offended.
