When is it considered overkill?

[BroncoFan]

This has been a great topic. I got drug thru the mud a little bit but there is a lot to think about and learn from. I still think underlying issue of BroncoFan is not what "those people" spend, it's their attitude and poor sportsmanship. It's not wrong to want win, to want your kids to do good, invest your time and money in your kids or having goals.  There are a lot of things going on behind the secenes so to speak at a youth livestock show and rarely involves the kids or the cattle(or pigs, lambs, goats, chickens, rabbits) it's more about the parents and politics. There always "those people" at every show, in every county. The ones with more money, a better truck, a better trailer, a better facility and a climate controlled metal building for their county broilers(I'm i teed off about that, you bet). "Those people" are the ones everyone is talking about.  Surely they are breaking the rules somehow, they are buying the win, they are not playing fair, there may be  no rules they are breaking but the sure are tacky rubbing our faces in how much money they have. Nobody is really sure what they are doing or how much they spent but they are winning so people talk about them. Just remember it doesn't take much to get on the wrong side of these politics and you become "those people".  All you have to is win and they will be talking about you. You don't really even have to win . People just have to think you are going to win and all of a sudden no one will speak to at meetings , everyone stops talking when you walk in the room.  It's been said before, it's a rough hobby.  I much prefer the major shows over county but my kids like showing with their friends. Notice I didn't say against their friends because that's not how kids see it. Just go to win and don't worry about what everyone else is doing and have fun. Overkill is in every species(climate control building for broilers) you will never get away from it  so don't worry so much about it. And in case you can't tell, broilers stress me out way more than cattle.

I don't think yall got drug through the mud. You brought a different perspective to the topic. We're trying to teach our kids to win humbly and lose with class. Just how we do it. When someone says good job then we make sure they say, " we got lucky and had a great day." My wife has instilled that in her nephews and nieces and we will with our own kids. My original gripe was it seemed like they were trying to buy the win. Plus trying to draw attention to themselves mainly the parents. The last couple years I saw one of their kids win the steer show and has not been back to the county fair to help the younger kids now that he's too old to do 4H. Do I know why? No but it just shows me that maybe the win was more important than the experience. I watch as most of the rest of the families help each other out. My wife won some buckles when she showed but you would see her helping everyone it didn't matter if the other people beat her later in the day. She did it for the love of showing livestock. Now I have seen some of the other kids that lost that same year show up to help the younger kids. So to me the kids that lost the banner and the buckle are the real winners because they showed for more than just being in the spotlight. The kids that lose to them in the market shows kick they're butts in showmanship. I didn't grow up doing 4H or FFA. So I sit back, watch and observe. I raised beef for the table, worked for different ranchers and rodeo stock. So my perspective is different than you all.

One thing is I'm glad that participation trophies aren't given out at these shows like in other sports because kids need to know that showing up won't get them a prize.

 

[rrblack78]

I haven't been meaning to come across like I know everything but sometimes a woman's perspective is a little different and we have been doing this for 8 years. Our county is a little different as in no body helps each other. Everyone keeps to themselves unless it's to gang up on someone. Our show is also pretty big, 7 school districts in one show but the numbers are lower than they have ever been. We have never won grand on anything and have been in the back of the line more often than not. My kids are well liked, the ag teacher hauls them all over the place helping out were they can. We have always told our boys to show to win, keep your head up when you lose, shake the judges hand and say thank you, shake the winners hand and say congratulations. This year we haven't tried to buy the show but we got a lot smarter about genitics and dealing directly with a breeder that has resulted in high quality cattle for reasonable money. Nobody knows how much we spent but it's not as much as they think. It's not even at the top end for our county. But that doesn't stop them from talking about it.

 

[rrblack78]

I forgot to add our county steer show is usually very competitive but that because we are only about 60 miles from Houston and in the past it was nothing for 15-20 kids to show at Houston first then come home to county if they didn't get branded. The numbers are lower now about 3-5. If someone actually came out and told people they spent 15k on a steer it wouldn't cause that much of a ruckus. Heifers are a different story. No body double tags heifers. The heifer show is a commercial replacement heifer show. Everyones gets heifers from someones pasture then sells them in the auction. Until last year. Someone showed up with heifers from Oklahoma. Another girl brought a monopoly heifer. It caused a huge cluster. Now this year their are 3 heifers showing in majors first then county. The same people went back to Oklahoma. It going to get very interesting at the heifer show this year.

 

[Tallcool1]

I haven't been meaning to come across like I know everything but sometimes a woman's perspective is a little different and we have been doing this for 8 years. Our county is a little different as in no body helps each other. Everyone keeps to themselves unless it's to gang up on someone. Our show is also pretty big, 7 school districts in one show but the numbers are lower than they have ever been. We have never won grand on anything and have been in the back of the line more often than not. My kids are well liked, the ag teacher hauls them all over the place helping out were they can. We have always told our boys to show to win, keep your head up when you lose, shake the judges hand and say thank you, shake the winners hand and say congratulations. This year we haven't tried to buy the show but we got a lot smarter about genitics and dealing directly with a breeder that has resulted in high quality cattle for reasonable money. Nobody knows how much we spent but it's not as much as they think. It's not even at the top end for our county. But that doesn't stop them from talking about it.

I wanted to take a second and point out that my comments about taking Major caliber calves to a county fair were made BEFORE I understood that your county show is after the Majors.  My opinion was based upon risk vs. reward, not on "fairness" or ethics.  If the last chance I had to get a steer into a sale was my county fair, I would certainly do the same thing.

The game is completely different in some parts of the country.  I didn't know that.

 

[simba]

Going back to the original question... Is it overkill? Of course. Is spending more than market value on a steer because he's a "show steer" and not just a "feedlot steer" overkill? Sure. Is spending an hour a day working hair for months only to be in the ring for 20 minutes overkill? Yup. As stated earlier in this thread our whole industry is overkill! That's why we love it. It's fun, exciting, and more than a little over the top.

It's been implied by a few different people that owning an expensive animal somehow makes you a bad person. I've been at shows where I had the cheapest animal and shows where I've had the most expensive. At both shows I'm the same person. I still help people, still wanna have fun, but ultimately I'm there to compete. Whether they're winning or losing and if it's with an $800 animal or an $80,000 animal, at the end of the day a humble person will still be both proud and polite. There will be jerks in any industry, there's no point in complaining about that because it won't get you anywhere.

I certainly don't agree with teaching your kids to say "We got lucky and had a great day". You didn't get lucky. You earned it or you bought it but there's no coin tossing at a cattle show. BroncoFan I'm certainly not implying that you bought it but what I'm saying is if you teach kids that you win by being lucky, then how will they ever feel like they achieved something? You win by being better, hard work gets results. I'm far from being a parent, I'm still a kid myself, but that's what my kids will be taught.

Everyone spends their money differently and everyone has different amounts of money to spend. WHO CARES? Upping your game will get you a whole lot further than complaining. Life's not fair. Not in in the show ring and not anywhere else.

 

[rrblack78]

I don't know how to do the quotations but @Tallcool1 no worries. This is a hot topic. It covers show ethics, parents styles/choices, sportsmanship and finances. Those are tough topics to talk about with people you know much less a bunch of strangers on the interweb.

 

[nkotb]

We frequently equate a county fair to a local wrestling tournament.  I have refereed little kids/federated/not sure what everyone calls it, for a few years and have noticed something.  The 6 and under parents take it way more serious than the older kids, especially at the every Saturday tournaments.  As you move up in age, as well as move to the "post-season tournaments," there is not as much animosity, it seems.  Do people still whine and complain?  Sure.  Just like at a county fair vs. a state fair.  Do people whine at the county fair?  Yes, do they whine at the state fair?  It doesn't seem to be as bad.  I'm not sure if it's because people have figured out their place in the "post-season" of showing and sports, or if it's the more elite people showing/competing past the po-dunk, but in my experience, there is a substantial amount more whining/complaining at county fair/regular tournament than there is at a larger deal.

 

[Tallcool1]

We frequently equate a county fair to a local wrestling tournament.  I have refereed little kids/federated/not sure what everyone calls it, for a few years and have noticed something.  The 6 and under parents take it way more serious than the older kids, especially at the every Saturday tournaments.  As you move up in age, as well as move to the "post-season tournaments," there is not as much animosity, it seems.  Do people still whine and complain?  Sure.  Just like at a county fair vs. a state fair.  Do people whine at the county fair?  Yes, do they whine at the state fair?  It doesn't seem to be as bad.  I'm not sure if it's because people have figured out their place in the "post-season" of showing and sports, or if it's the more elite people showing/competing past the po-dunk, but in my experience, there is a substantial amount more whining/complaining at county fair/regular tournament than there is at a larger deal.

Excellent observation.  I have noticed it in sports as well.  The teams playing or showing in the Post Season understand the program, and are typically not barn blind.  Like you said, they know what they have got long before they load up to go.  They might get a small surprise here or there but it is not like they will get blind sided.

 

[MCC]

Is it considered overkill if you are a club calf producer and when your kids get old enough to show you send them to town with some of your better calves?

 

[Tallcool1]

Is it considered overkill if you are a club calf producer and when your kids get old enough to show you send them to town with some of your better calves?

What a great question!

I don't know that this is an overkill issue as much as it is a business philosophy.

I am going to start a thread around this. 

 

[rrblack78]

Since this is my goal in life, I don't think so.

 

[JRapp]

Along the same lines of the overkill question.... What does your state/county consider under the "care" of the exhibitor?  As in does the animal need to be housed on your farm? Can it be at another persons house as long as they are putting in an honest effort in taking care of the animal? Or does it even matter in your state?

We just had our steer weigh-in last weekend and this is a item of question to say the least 

 

[Tallcool1]

Along the same lines of the overkill question.... What does your state/county consider under the "care" of the exhibitor?  As in does the animal need to be housed on your farm? Can it be at another persons house as long as they are putting in an honest effort in taking care of the animal? Or does it even matter in your state?

We just had our steer weigh-in last weekend and this is a item of question to say the least 

Under the DAILY CARE of the exhibitor.

 

[hevmando]

I have truly appreciated the discussion on this topic.  One of the most civilized I have seen on any forum for quite a while but also addressed some intensive topics.  Quite refreshing compared to my hometown danceline's recent media attention.

 

[vc]

JRapp, I think as long as the exhibitor cares for the animal it is fine to be housed at an other location. Does it say "care" or "Daily care"? In our county it says possession. We had a girl keep her steer at our place because by himself he did not eat well. My son fed and mucked out in the morning she did it in the evening. Once they were growing hair he rinsed and blew the 2 in the morning she did them after school.
They both put in the same amount of work, she was there daily, it seemed right to me.
If the exhibitor is visiting the animal once a week or every other week, they are not raising an animal project are they?

 

[JRapp]

Our county rule is pretty vague...

"Each exhibit shall be owned and under the care of the exhibitor and shall represent work accomplished with the 4-H or FFA project during the current year"

I agree, once a week is not caring for the animal.  The situation we (our county) has is that the kids don't have a place for the calves and will keep them at a friends, go up several times during the week and on weekends.  I know that is as much or more work than what some of the kids who have calves at home put in them.  I guess IMO I don't see an issue w/it, but as with anything some folks do. 

 

[Spencer10218]

What if they have a place to keep them
But keep them at someone's place to use there cooler
But they still work with the calf daily

 

[vc]

They would be carring for them daily, I do not see a how that could be a problem. 

 

[b_kackley]

I am faced with these questions every year. I am an Ag teacher and have several students under my supervision with animals going to the fair. Some don't have the facilities or the knowledge to care for their animals. It all comes down to ethics. In my opinion an exhibitor earns the right to show by work. It doesn't matter where the animal is. It's part of my job to visit these young people's projects and evaluate how they are doing. Give advice when I can, and if I don't know the answer find someone who does. I really don't care how much they spent on the animal. I just want them to reach the fullest potential that animal has. That is something to be proud of no matter where they place in class. Personally I got slaughtered at the fair each year I showed. I was still proud of my calves cause I did the work. My kids will have way better calves than I did if they want to show. I once had a kid say he wanted to win the state fair. A great goal. He said he was going to save money and buy a sure winner. I said no such thing and advised him to use his money to raise the dam of a state fair winner. He would make a lot more money in the long run. I sometimes share the points of view i see on here for class and am often impressed with the variety of topics. I also am impressed with the civility shown on this topic.

 

[rjb]

I've debated about commenting on this topic. I've been in some of these aspects of this topic. A few years ago we were in between my sisters showing and my kids showing and didn't want to get out of the game and wanted to build our donor pen at the same time. We found a local kid who had that desire to learn the game we call the club calf business. He was out almost everyday and learn more than most will in a lifetime. We got a lot a heat from a lot of people but everyone could see the amount of work he put in. Now my girls are showing we get the "overkill" label put on us and that we're cheaters that we over pay for our cattle and its a sad deal when kids ignore or talk sh$t to my girls. Do we spend some money ...yes. Do we take them to our county fair....yes. We've won our steer show fairly easy. Not because the money we spent but the work and management we put into our cattle. We can't spend the type of money it takes to win a state fair but we can spend a little and work our asses off win a county fair and maybe win breed at state. I won't apologize to anyone for the money we spend or the work we put in to accomplish our goals.