Your thoughts on the results of the National Red Angus show in Denver

[ROAD WARRIOR]

There has been quite a bit of stir in the breed about the results of the show in Denver this year, here is the nuts and bolts of the contraversy.In the 2013 National Red Angus show the National Champion bull was crowned, and now the rest of the story as they say....The bull is a certified carrier of OS. With as much emphasis as the national office has placed on genetic defect testing should this have happened? There was an "associate judge" in the ring judging the papers and EPD's all day long. There are currently no rules against showing "dirty" animals and he came from a very reputable breeder who did nothing wrong by exhibiting him. My question is this, should a know carrier of a fatal genetic defect be allowed to show in a breeding animal show and if so should he be considered for the champion drive? Let me know what you think. RW

 

[cowman 52]

I haVe a few red cows, and am really wondering why I keep the papers.  The red deal seems to be about as viable right now as a rowboat in a typhoon. Didn't get to go to Denver, but the judge was at e regional fair a year or so back, his reason for the champion Hereford heifer-- she will raise some show steers.
A few years ago in Ft Worth, a pretty good heifer was left standing in line,  the judge was told" we don't need that kind of heifer winning"
A couple of years after that, you do the junior show right, and you can judge the open show next year.
I'm not in love with this sowing deal, but you need to promote your cattle, and the guys running the deal a more interested in making the breed fit their visions rather than the cattle talking for themselves.
When ever the breed is more interested in constant epd realignments, and a genetic base about as deep as a kiddie pool,
I had a post on another site, asking about the reds in Denver,  not 1 reply, either no one looked or no one gave a flip.
At this very minute finding semen to use is next to impossible, no mothering ability, no deep pedigree that shows some predictability, nothing but EPD, EPD, EPD.
Hey, you asked

 

[aj]

Can you sell semen on an OS carrier? Can you register them......are they yanked if a carrier? I hate to see the Red Angus have cattle shows......I think that will wreck the breed. Maybe not a valid opinion........but it is mine.

 

[Red Cow Relocators]

I haVe a few red cows, and am really wondering why I keep the papers.  The red deal seems to be about as viable right now as a rowboat in a typhoon. Didn't get to go to Denver, but the judge was at e regional fair a year or so back, his reason for the champion Hereford heifer-- she will raise some show steers.
A few years ago in Ft Worth, a pretty good heifer was left standing in line,  the judge was told" we don't need that kind of heifer winning"
A couple of years after that, you do the junior show right, and you can judge the open show next year.
I'm not in love with this sowing deal, but you need to promote your cattle, and the guys running the deal a more interested in making the breed fit their visions rather than the cattle talking for themselves.
When ever the breed is more interested in constant epd realignments, and a genetic base about as deep as a kiddie pool,
I had a post on another site, asking about the reds in Denver,  not 1 reply, either no one looked or no one gave a flip.
At this very minute finding semen to use is next to impossible, no mothering ability, no deep pedigree that shows some predictability, nothing but EPD, EPD, EPD.
Hey, you asked

Thanks cowman for the reply. I found it quite interesting that at the "brain trust" meeting they had speakers that basically stated that we need to stop placing so much emphasis on EPD's and breeding cattle on a computers and yet the chosen "associate judge" did nothing except make sure the right EPD's were on the papers of the winners. Personally I would love to see someone judge the cattle in the ring on their merits that day, not what a computer program is predicting their offspring might do. RW

 

[Red Cow Relocators]

Can you sell semen on an OS carrier? Can you register them......are they yanked if a carrier? I hate to see the Red Angus have cattle shows......I think that will wreck the breed. Maybe not a valid opinion........but it is mine.

AJ - Yes you can sell semen on carriers and register them in the US. I think that there needs to be a show for two reasons. 1 - breed/herd promotion and 2 - so many of the "ideal" numbered cattle are phenotypically so bad on their feet, legs, muscle dimension, etc. RW

 

[feeder duck]

Coming from the Shorthorns to the Reds. The horns are 90% show 10 % commercial. The Red are 90% commercial 10% show. I think you will be ok. The is so much genetic choice you can breed or buy yourself out of any corner.

 

[justintime]

If carriers are allowed to show, they should be eligible to win the show. If a breed doesn't want a carrier to be a major show Champion, then they need to change the show rules and not allow carriers to be shown. The judge( s) in the ring should not have to deal with this issue. Totally not fair to them, the exhibitors, and the breed.

I agree with RCR on why shows are important. Different people will place more emphasis on them than others. I know I gained a bunch of knowledge from my trip to Denver. Seeing " in the flesh" is much better than just reading promotional material. This year, I did not watch the shows in Denver other than the Pen shows in the yards. I went through the cattle on the Hill and made my own judgements on them. Some were real disappointments, some were real pleasant surprises!

 

[Foster]

Who was the judge?

 

[Mill Iron A]

I would rather "wreck" the breed by making phenotype a priority than wreck it like the black angus have and breed cattle like accountants and never look at the cattle, epd s are not irrelevant but they are not the end all answer to cattle breeding.  We have a crisis in the cattle industry and it is the lack of stockmanship.  Good feet, sound structure, scrotal shape and dissension, sheeth, feminity, etc. There aren't many that know or pay attention to these things anymore and we have to bring it back.

 

[Red Cow Relocators]

I would rather "wreck" the breed by making phenotype a priority than wreck it like the black angus have and breed cattle like accountants and never look at the cattle, epd s are not irrelevant but they are not the end all answer to cattle breeding.  We have a crisis in the cattle industry and it is the lack of stockmanship.  Good feet, sound structure, scrotal shape and dissension, sheeth, feminity, etc. There aren't many that know or pay attention to these things anymore and we have to bring it back.

Well said Mill Iron A, I had to look twice to make sure I hadn't wrote this p[ost myself. RCR

 

[vcsf]

My thoughts on this are very much in line with justintime's that if carriers are allowed to show that they should be allowed to be champions.  I do think that a valid argument could be made that carriers not be allowed in breeding shows however if this were the case I believe that all cattle showing should be required to be tested free or out of parents that are tested free.  If you were to ban carriers from the show but allow untested cattle to show I believe it would discourage some people from testing.

I also see the values in shows as a promotional tool and letting people see what different programs are producing when it is difficult for some of us to do a large number of herd tours.  Personally I have left a show having no argument with the cattle that were named champions but feeling that the animal that would benefit my program the best at the moment placed at the bottom.  To me the problem comes when some people strictly use the bloodlines that have won a show with out considering how they will work in their own program to achieve their goals.  I also believe EPD's have a place but breeding solely based on EPD's will cause just as much harm or more as just breeding to the  latest champion.

RCR, on a slightly different note I would be very interested to hear your thoughts on the reserve champion bull in Denver if you looked at him.

 

[Red Cow Relocators]

vcsf - I thought he was a nice enough calf. If I could change him I might make him a little bigger and power him up a little more. After seeing a few thousand Red Angus bulls sell in the last couple of years, I think that we have probably moderated them enough and could use some power put back into the genetic pool. From a breeders standpoint, he probably isn't a bull I will use, but I'm sure that he will fit alot of peoples programs. RCR

 

[aj]

Hopefully....being an OS carrier....doesn't show a phenotypical advantage like th does.

 

[Red Cow Relocators]

Hopefully....being an OS carrier....doesn't show a phenotypical advantage like th does.

AJ - I have seen many OS carriers and have never seen a phenotypical advantage. They look the same as their sibs but carry the defect. RCR

 

[vcsf]

vcsf - I thought he was a nice enough calf. If I could change him I might make him a little bigger and power him up a little more. After seeing a few thousand Red Angus bulls sell in the last couple of years, I think that we have probably moderated them enough and could use some power put back into the genetic pool. From a breeders standpoint, he probably isn't a bull I will use, but I'm sure that he will fit alot of peoples programs. RCR

Not sure we are thinking of the same bull.  I was referring to Six Mile's coming two year old Net Worth grandson.

 

[Red Cow Relocators]

vcsf - I thought he was a nice enough calf. If I could change him I might make him a little bigger and power him up a little more. After seeing a few thousand Red Angus bulls sell in the last couple of years, I think that we have probably moderated them enough and could use some power put back into the genetic pool. From a breeders standpoint, he probably isn't a bull I will use, but I'm sure that he will fit alot of peoples programs. RCR

Not sure we are thinking of the same bull.  I was referring to Six Mile's coming two year old Net Worth grandson.

You're right, I was thinking about their calf. I never got to see the bull you're referring to out of the stall. Got busy and missed the champion drive. He looked pretty good in the stall but to give you an honest oppinion I would have liked to see him on the move. RCR

 

[BTDT]

I have read the rules and there is nothing about a show animal having to be defect free in the red angus or any other breed for that matter.  The bull was good and he should have won based on show qualifications.
No one tried to cover up the fact that it was a carrier. No one lied. No one covered it up.
A show, in many cattleman's opinion and yours too, is based solely on appearance "on that day". You do not seem to think EPD's should be used, nor should pedigree. So defect status shouldn't be either.

If defect carriers are not allowed to show, then they should not be allowed to be sold, and not be allowed to be AI sires or donor cows.  The maine, shorthorn, and angus shows would be nothing but a few animals if carriers were not allow to show.

The reds at Denver were good. A few shouldn't have been there, but overall the Canadian cattle were great.  There seems to be some new players and they knocking on the door of success.  That says alot about the breed and the bright future for the reds. 

Denver is overated as the "National" red angus show.  It is just another show, numbers aren't as big as some other shows so the competition is the same as most other shows.

 

[cowman 52]

Why in the world are we promoting a bull or a cow with a genetic defect???  The shorts have turned a blind eye to it and what has it got them,  nothing but critters in the show ring.  You can't give away a short to put in a commercial herd,
  The blacks have used it for a revenue producer, if it has a chance, you must DNA to prove it isn't a carrier.
The average commercial producer buys a bull to turn out with the cows, doesnt know th from sickum. And when he gets a cripple or worse, who is he mad at----the whole purebred industry.
Years ago a ranch I worked on sent the bulls they could not sell to the sale barn, after a treatment to insure they didn't reproduce.
You would be surprised the number of buyers who wanted their money back because the bull would not settle cows. This was before we had access to a packing house.
Next question, why would you put the EXPENSE into it ----is a banner worth that much?

 

[shortyjock89]

Why in the world are we promoting a bull or a cow with a genetic defect???  The shorts have turned a blind eye to it and what has it got them,  nothing but critters in the show ring.  You can't give away a short to put in a commercial herd,
  The blacks have used it for a revenue producer, if it has a chance, you must DNA to prove it isn't a carrier.
The average commercial producer buys a bull to turn out with the cows, doesnt know th from sickum. And when he gets a cripple or worse, who is he mad at----the whole purebred industry.
Years ago a ranch I worked on sent the bulls they could not sell to the sale barn, after a treatment to insure they didn't reproduce.
You would be surprised the number of buyers who wanted their money back because the bull would not settle cows. This was before we had access to a packing house.
Next question, why would you put the EXPENSE into it ----is a banner worth that much?

When is the last time a bull or heifer with a genetic defect won National Champion Shorthorn?  Been a long, long time.  Nobody that wins uses the TH positive stuff. 

 

[cowman 52]

And in the shorthorn shows, if you can't spend 25 grand, you stand oh probably 8th at best.