Canada vs U.S. Shorthorn purity

[ctroidl]

Why does the CSA not consider full blood Maines 3/4 shorthorns like the ASA? I was considering purchasing a heifer by Red Reward, but when I checked her percentage with the CSA they told me she is only considered 65.4% shorthorn. Where as with the American shorthorn association she is considered a purebred.

 

[mark tenenbaum]

Pretty hypocritical when you see the old Enticer,GS Irish Sweepstakes and alot of the Rodeo and other "no-tell motel" cattle that have gone to Canada in the last 25 years O0

 

[Okotoks]

Pretty hypocritical when you see the old Enticer,GS Irish Sweepstakes and alot of the Rodeo and other "no-tell motel" cattle that have gone to Canada in the last 25 years O0

Why is it hypocritical if the bulls you mention were regesitered incorrectly in the ASA and no one ever reported it? There will always be people that misrepresent things but that hardly justifies throwing out all the rules of our herdbook. Maine Anjous are just one of the many breeds developed from Shorthorn but they are all distinct breeds in themselves.

 

[sue]

Why does the CSA not consider full blood Maines 3/4 shorthorns like the ASA? I was considering purchasing a heifer by Red Reward, but when I checked her percentage with the CSA they told me she is only considered 65.4% shorthorn. Where as with the American shorthorn association she is considered a purebred.

I have been on the  ASA shorthornplus committee for a couple of years: As of Jan 2015, red maine genetics will not come in the books as 3/4 shorthorn. Bulls like Red Reward have or will be grandfathered into the shorthorn . However if you had or have Red Maine matings in the tank or due this spring 2015- well, you have to paper like all the rest. This information can be found on ASA webpage. You can purchase this Red Reward female and become a member of American  Shorthorn.  In other words "fresh hot new red maine blood " is no longer papering as 3/4 shorthorn. Best of luck

 

[mark tenenbaum]

Pretty hypocritical when you see the old Enticer,GS Irish Sweepstakes and alot of the Rodeo and other "no-tell motel" cattle that have gone to Canada in the last 25 years O0

Why is it hypocritical if the bulls you mention were regesitered incorrectly in the ASA and no one ever reported it? There will always be people that misrepresent things but that hardly justifies throwing out all the rules of our herdbook. Maine Anjous are just one of the many breeds developed from Shorthorn but they are all distinct breeds in themselves. What about Rodeo drive? Im sure people up there knew about him Enticer and others-all you had to do is look at them-so the purity isnt all that pure:I guess its a matter of who puts a lid on things and when O0

 

[Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR]

Pretty hypocritical when you see the old Enticer,GS Irish Sweepstakes and alot of the Rodeo and other "no-tell motel" cattle that have gone to Canada in the last 25 years O0

Why is it hypocritical if the bulls you mention were regesitered incorrectly in the ASA and no one ever reported it? There will always be people that misrepresent things but that hardly justifies throwing out all the rules of our herdbook. Maine Anjous are just one of the many breeds developed from Shorthorn but they are all distinct breeds in themselves.

Registered incorrectly or designedly?!?!?!?!

I always hear that Instant enticer was by a Maine cow, just now Irish Sweepstakes on the list....some one could please send me privatelly a list of that pure mongrels!

Agree....Shorthorn were part of that breeds on their formation, but they are now a separated breed, so, startibg form this premisse....Santa Gertrudis and Bonsmara need to be accept on ASA/CSA herd books....with positive view that all people knows that Santas are 65% Shorthorn and Bonsmaras 25%.....

 

[mark tenenbaum]

Its too bad about the Red Reward et-al deal. At least there was a chance to get some commercially viable cattle from another gene pool-because there arent a whole lot of alternatives (DOWN HERE)if you need to produce some show cattle that will also work for the black herd down the road :when you get a good bull calf.etc-SORRY folks-there just arent very many Shorthorn bulls being used that way-and the guy down the road may not be a distiguished judge-but he wants a bull as good looking AS BIG, and thick as the Angus,Simm, or variation he can buy 50 of:and not really worry at calving the way alot of purebred breeders do. Guess Im just gonna be impure and breed plusses:because I see the choices narrowing too rapidly and I see the so crossbred cattle out my car window every day-and how big those calves wean O0

 

[mark tenenbaum]

Pretty hypocritical when you see the old Enticer,GS Irish Sweepstakes and alot of the Rodeo and other "no-tell motel" cattle that have gone to Canada in the last 25 years O0

Why is it hypocritical if the bulls you mention were regesitered incorrectly in the ASA and no one ever reported it? There will always be people that misrepresent things but that hardly justifies throwing out all the rules of our herdbook. Maine Anjous are just one of the many breeds developed from Shorthorn but they are all distinct breeds in themselves.

Registered incorrectly or designedly?!?!?!?!

I always hear that Instant enticer was by a Maine cow, just now Irish Sweepstakes on the list....some one could please send me privatelly a list of that pure mongrels!

Agree....Shorthorn were part of that breeds on their formation, but they are now a separated breed, so, startibg form this premisse....Santa Gertrudis and Bonsmara need to be accept on ASA/CSA herd books....with positive view that all people knows that Santas are 65% Shorthorn and Bonsmaras 25%...../// I cannot speak publically about Irish Sweepstakes-but his breeder had cattle with us-and we stalled and showed from 1991 till at least 2003-All you had to do is take one look at Strathore Irish Magic or his progeny -STEVIE WONDER COULD SEE THAT INFLUENCE O0

 

[Doc]

Why does the CSA not consider full blood Maines 3/4 shorthorns like the ASA? I was considering purchasing a heifer by Red Reward, but when I checked her percentage with the CSA they told me she is only considered 65.4% shorthorn. Where as with the American shorthorn association she is considered a purebred.

I have been on the  ASA shorthornplus committee for a couple of years: As of Jan 2015, red maine genetics will not come in the books as 3/4 shorthorn. Bulls like Red Reward have or will be grandfathered into the shorthorn . However if you had or have Red Maine matings in the tank or due this spring 2015- well, you have to paper like all the rest. This information can be found on ASA webpage. You can purchase this Red Reward female and become a member of American  Shorthorn.  In other words "fresh hot new red maine blood " is no longer papering as 3/4 shorthorn. Best of luck

Sue , I hadn't heard that at all. Where is at on ASA webpage? I just got done looking and must be blind because I couldn't find it anywhere.

 

[jaimiediamond]

I find the topic of pedigree very interesting.  There are always human and management error our job as breeders is to do our best to avoid such mistakes.  I don't think a group of breeders intentionally or unintentionally fudging the records is an excuse to allow another breed in with 75% status.  I do believe that if the ASA is implementing changes sue suggested it will help the breed get a more secure market. 

Our herdsire prospects generally sell to the commercial cattleman for a maternal base.  One of our  most influential buyers is against buying high appendix bulls as he feels that the consistency is lost. He had a number of this bulls from other producers to come to this conclusion. It would hurt our Canadian bull market to sell a large number of percentage bulls. 

The heifer mentioned even if she were bred to a 100% Shorthorn according to the Canadian herdbook would only produce a  82.7% calf which is not even eligible to show. 

 

[Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR]

Pretty hypocritical when you see the old Enticer,GS Irish Sweepstakes and alot of the Rodeo and other "no-tell motel" cattle that have gone to Canada in the last 25 years O0

Why is it hypocritical if the bulls you mention were regesitered incorrectly in the ASA and no one ever reported it? There will always be people that misrepresent things but that hardly justifies throwing out all the rules of our herdbook. Maine Anjous are just one of the many breeds developed from Shorthorn but they are all distinct breeds in themselves.

Registered incorrectly or designedly?!?!?!?!

I always hear that Instant enticer was by a Maine cow, just now Irish Sweepstakes on the list....some one could please send me privatelly a list of that pure mongrels!

Agree....Shorthorn were part of that breeds on their formation, but they are now a separated breed, so, startibg form this premisse....Santa Gertrudis and Bonsmara need to be accept on ASA/CSA herd books....with positive view that all people knows that Santas are 65% Shorthorn and Bonsmaras 25%...../// I cannot speak publically about Irish Sweepstakes-but his breeder had cattle with us-and we stalled and showed from 1991 till at least 2003-All you had to do is take one look at Strathore Irish Magic or his progeny -STEVIE WONDER COULD SEE THAT INFLUENCE O0

Mark, thanks.
Here in Brazil we have not Maines on profusion on our cattle since early 80's and only a couple bulls were used - Cunia e Scottish Echard - So, I'm not familiar to Maine Anjou progeny marks....Of course that some animals are more mottled or spotted than another ones, but high Irish infusion makes it all confuse for us....

Will try show more attention on listed bulls and maybe can see better than Mr.Wonder!

Thank you.

 

[RyanChandler]

Why does the CSA not consider full blood Maines 3/4 shorthorns like the ASA? I was considering purchasing a heifer by Red Reward, but when I checked her percentage with the CSA they told me she is only considered 65.4% shorthorn. Where as with the American shorthorn association she is considered a purebred.

I have been on the  ASA shorthornplus committee for a couple of years: As of Jan 2015, red maine genetics will not come in the books as 3/4 shorthorn. Bulls like Red Reward have or will be grandfathered into the shorthorn . However if you had or have Red Maine matings in the tank or due this spring 2015- well, you have to paper like all the rest. This information can be found on ASA webpage. You can purchase this Red Reward female and become a member of American  Shorthorn.  In other words "fresh hot new red maine blood " is no longer papering as 3/4 shorthorn. Best of luck

Best news I've heard all week.

 

[phillse]

In my opinion, At the end of the day, breed purity is a breed association issue.  Commercial guys simply want a product that is consistent and performs ie. form and function.  Breed purity main purpose is in providing consistency.  This  can be obtained given that the unpure blood is not up close in the pedigree or linebreeding has occurred to allow for more homogeneous alleles.

 

[coyote]

Looking back was there more positives or negatives by infusing Maine Anjou into Shorthorns ?
They added more growth and muscling into Shorthorns almost to the point of making the Shorthorn breed more of a terminal breed.
They also added the higher flank, harder doing cattle, along with higher BW.
I don't think they helped the carcass quality much, sure they added more yield but at the expense of loosing marbling .

 

[caledon101]

Some of the old time breeders in Canada have told me they think the introduction of Maine genetics saved the breed. The attributes the Maines brought to the table outweighed the negatives.
Overall, I think anything that can move Canada and the USA closer to harmonizing the definition of "purebred" is a good thing. Seems crazy to me that a NAILE grand champion shorthorn isn't eligible to even show at the local fair here. And if you try and bring one out that is purebred in the USA but not recognized as such in Canada the Shorthorn police will probably show up.

 

[Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR]

Some of the old time breeders in Canada have told me they think the introduction of Maine genetics saved the breed. The attributes the Maines brought to the table outweighed the negatives.
Overall, I think anything that can move Canada and the USA closer to harmonizing the definition of "purebred" is a good thing. Seems crazy to me that a NAILE grand champion shorthorn isn't eligible to even show at the local fair here. And if you try and bring one out that is purebred in the USA but not recognized as such in Canada the Shorthorn police will probably show up.

Excuse me, but, of course they will tell it....they accepted the Maine Anjou introducion on breed!
You see the same thinking with guys that mate PH and THA animals....for they...is all OK!
Past is past...impossible to turn back! On future, suggest that breeders think better on this kind decisions.....or...well....make all commercial and be happy!

 

[coyote]

I bet some other " old time breeders" would say it killed the breed out in ranch land with hard calving, hard doing cattle.
It is an interesting topic on where the breed would be . Same thing as other breeds, as how they changed, like turning a lot of breeds black, where would they be if they didn't change.

 

[doc-sun]

Looking back was there more positives or negatives by infusing Maine Anjou into Shorthorns ?
They added more growth and muscling into Shorthorns almost to the point of making the Shorthorn breed more of a terminal breed.
They also added the higher flank, harder doing cattle, along with higher BW.
I don't think they helped the carcass quality much, sure they added more yield but at the expense of loosing marbling .

you had to know enough about Maines to know which bulls to use. these 3/4 shorthorn fullblood maine bulls will help maternally too with up to 4.0 imf.

 

[mark tenenbaum]

Some of the old time breeders in Canada have told me they think the introduction of Maine genetics saved the breed. The attributes the Maines brought to the table outweighed the negatives.
Overall, I think anything that can move Canada and the USA closer to harmonizing the definition of "purebred" is a good thing. Seems crazy to me that a NAILE grand champion shorthorn isn't eligible to even show at the local fair here. And if you try and bring one out that is purebred in the USA but not recognized as such in Canada the Shorthorn police will probably show up. (clapping) (clapping) <party> Well put-I think there are extremes in all breeds-and maines-fullblood and purebred alike have come an awfull long way JUST LOOK AT THE 2 BULLS ABOVE THIS COMMENTr maybe check out a bull named 1-80-We just had a 72 pound hiefer out of a large (MIN.110 BW) bull from Okotocs who is a real good looking bull,but hes as hi off the ground etc as alot of maines-her dam is a very moderate Free For All-who has a bunch of Maine-from Sonny-Draftpick and Double Vision out of a grandaughter of Huberdale PM Luara who has never really produced anything very big-Lonny thinks shes a real nice hiefer-and the mating was a lucky one JMO-because she'll be a tad larger than her dam-at least as thick-and will carry on the easy calving-THATS why I go entirely different-and try to mix new blood-for a few generations-tuff to do it all-but shooting for a phenotype that will work either show or go (to the pasture). So:I will eventually use a relative to everything EZ calving FULLBLOOD on her.O0

 

[beebe]

Looking back was there more positives or negatives by infusing Maine Anjou into Shorthorns ?
They added more growth and muscling into Shorthorns almost to the point of making the Shorthorn breed more of a terminal breed.
They also added the higher flank, harder doing cattle, along with higher BW.
I don't think they helped the carcass quality much, sure they added more yield but at the expense of loosing marbling .

you had to know enough about Maines to know which bulls to use. these 3/4 shorthorn fullblood maine bulls will help maternally too with up to 4.0 imf.

Just curious, in what way do you think those bulls would help maternally?