Cattle injected with air

[vet tech]

weather you want to air or not is your choice. But don't lecture me about ethics and teaching the young. How many of you change birth dates or show a roan heatwave as a shorthorn its all one in the same to me. Making something its not. Food for thought on all you perfect people out there that never break rules.One question if you sold a steer that won a major and found out it was aired would you advertise that you raised him, You bet you would.

no way

 

[herefordfootball]

I pm'd you TMJ.

 

[brandisshortys]

Thats right, same as sports....the point that John was making earlier is that this has been going on for a LONG time, and NOT by us, but by people that are know very well in the business. 

In my opinion, airing is unethical.  But it is also my responsibility as a parent to teach my girls that it is more than likely done in more places than you would care to think.  I believe the kids need to be AWARE it is going on, because if they are trying to raise a champion, they need to know what it looks like. When I say RAISE, I mean breed that cow the right way.

I , for one, am extremely proud to say I have 3 girls 16, 14, 11, that can run their own cows through the chute, make business calls and decisions with their cattle, and KNOW what happens in the show ring. There has been and will always be ONE winner of every show.  And yes, I love to see my kids do well in the ring....so if that makes me a parent re-living my 4-H years, so be it. I am sure my parents felt the same way when they watched me, even my grandparents ! PATHETIC????

As with all parent decisions, I will guide my kids through this, just as I would tell them that drugs are on the street .  Airing...drugs...ect ...HAS been and WILL be there. 


Carrie

Bravo!  (clapping)  I agree!

 

[justintime]

There has been cheating going on since cattle shows started. This is nothing new, however, some of the methods to try to get an advantage have changed. Some of the stories I have heard about  some of the old time tricks of the trade from the 30s and 40s would make your hair curl. I can remember as a young boy, going to a bull sale and going to a well known purebred herds stall and looking at the bulls when no one was around. I can remember feeling the flank on one bull, and you could still feel the scars and the stitch marks inside the flank where they had surgically altered the flank so it looked lower. Every bull in the stall was done like this. I can remember the barns full of nurse cows which were used to supplement yearling and even two year old bulls. It was quite a sight to see two year old bulls with horns sucking two or three cows twice a day.I remember my grandfather telling of a neighbour who was a very prominent Hereford breeder, having hired men who would tap the hips of their show bulls with a pipe until they could get them to swell up and look fuller hipped. This sounds somewhat like airing an animal, only airing would be a little more humane.

My point is, that this has been going on since the beginning of time. This does not make it right, and I am sure there were many incidents back through history where complaints were made and arguments and fights started. I guess the good news is that most people buy cattle from people they like. That said, I still maintain, that the honest producer will still win in the end. Ribbons are nice, and you will win some even if you don't cheat if you try to do your best.... and those ribbons usually are hard to pay bills with.

 

[knabe]

cheating seems to rationalize a larger share of a shrinking market.  not a good strategy.

 

[Show Heifer]

Justintime: Well said. Just because it happens doesn't make it right. Amen to that.

 

[Jill]

TMJ and JIT are right on target, I do think this type of thing has been going on for a lifetime, I just don't think it has been so open.  I had 1 parent tell me quite openly that you can't win a steer show in Kansas anymore without airing, I of course laughed at this because I just don't believe that, but with that type of mentality you are right TMJ your kids need to know what is going on and how you think about it or they develop opinions based on the fact it happens all over the barn it must be ok. 

 

[showsteerdlux]

I'd better not find out one of my steers had been aired, and if it was, I wouldnt advertise it if it won NWSS or NAILE  or the OKYE or any other show for that matter. I dont want anything to do with people that abuse their animals. And guess what if you do that to my steer, I'm gonna let everybody I know that you air cattle, and they will let everyone they know you air cattle and guess what its gonna be real hard for you to find someone that'll sell you a steer knowing you air your cattle. .

Since when do you know what everyone would or wouldn't do, because I can guarantee the exact opposite would happen in most cases. Once the calf has been bought the breeder or trader can't tell the person what to do. My advice, drop it because I don't think you can speak for everyone else, quit acting like the big influential trader that you aren't and let things cool down.

 

[herefordfootball]

I'd better not find out one of my steers had been aired, and if it was, I wouldnt advertise it if it won NWSS or NAILE  or the OKYE or any other show for that matter. I dont want anything to do with people that abuse their animals. And guess what if you do that to my steer, I'm gonna let everybody I know that you air cattle, and they will let everyone they know you air cattle and guess what its gonna be real hard for you to find someone that'll sell you a steer knowing you air your cattle. .

Since when do you know what everyone would or wouldn't do, because I can guarantee the exact opposite would happen in most cases. Once the calf has been bought the breeder or trader can't tell the person what to do. My advice, drop it because I don't think you can speak for everyone else, quit acting like the big influential trader that you aren't and let things cool down.

I dont know what everyone does with their cattle. And the exact opposite of what? Very true, I cant tell you what to do or not to do once you've bought the calf, but that will be the last time you buy a calf from me, I guarantee you that. I'm not trying to speak for everyone else, and no I'm not a "big influential trader", never said I was, but how do you know showsteernc, that I am not? You do not know me personally and you dont know who I deal with in cattle, so before you go saying what someone is or isnt I'd find out who I was talking to first, before I made a fool or myself.

 

[showsteerdlux]

I dont know what everyone does with their cattle. And the exact opposite of what? Very true, I cant tell you what to do or not to do once you've bought the calf, but that will be the last time you buy a calf from me, I guarantee you that. I'm not trying to speak for everyone else, and no I'm not a "big influential trader", never said I was, but how do you know showsteernc, that I am not? You do not know me personally and you dont know who I deal with in cattle, so before you go saying what someone is or isnt I'd find out who I was talking to first, before I made a fool or myself.

Number one I highly doubt any trader would be on here saying anything to the like of "I won't sell a calf to anyone who airs it". Number 2 you've stated your age on here before and sorry but 17 or whatever isn't quite the age that most experienced jocks/traders are. And don't worry, I'm not going to make a fool of myself anytime soon. As I said in my previous statement and on other posts to which you have responded, just let it be, you stated your opinion, quit stirring the waters, but I guess that would be way to easy and to mature a decision wouldn't it.

 

[chambero]

Back to the original question.  In my opinion, it's the show management and especially the JUDGE's responsibility to address these kinds of issues.  If a calf has been tampered with in a way that air or whatever else is present at show time, the judge is the one to find it and then address the issue however they see fit - either by reporting it to show management or burying the calf in last place (which is exactly what I'd do if I caught a calf with air in it in the ring). 

99.99% of the time these questions about "what should I do because someone did such and such" at the county level are based on rumor and not on something someone actually saw someone doing.  As with any rumors, they are almost always wrong.  If someone did have the nerve to air a calf (or anything else) at a show, you're sure not gonna see them doing it. 

Anyone that's actually been around it understands the absurdity of these claims about airing at a show.  That's not how or why its done, and when it is still done it's not to make a calf thicker, it's to make them smoother.  Come show time, there's nothing there but fat and meat, that is as natural as anything to do with a show steer.  Airing has nothing to do with young "jocks".  I've seen more people do it that are now in their 70s than I have the younger generation.  Those that are still doing it (and yes it's still common in families that have shown for generations) are doing so because that's how their grandfathers taught their fathers how to make a show steer look fat and smooth.  Not because they are vile cheaters.  I know plenty of folks that still do it, and it doesn't bother me showing against them one bit.  I don't mind selling calves to them.  Airing is really not that big of a deal in my educated opinion, as opposed to some of the other stuff that goes on.  I'd love to see some enforcement to eliminate calves living several hundred miles from the kids that own them. 

Not that anyone would believe it, but its not nearly as cruel to the animal as many other common COMMERCIAL procedures - dehorning, castrating, etc.  Do you really think you can perform a horribly painful procedure on an animal and it even begin to be able to be showed by a little kid?  I'll guarantee you a close foot trimming, pulling a hundred pounds off one, and especially cosmetic dehorning hurts them much, much worse.  And like other types of these issues I've commented on in the past, the benefits are very marginal at best, especially with all of the fat supplements we now have at our disposal.  It's an artifact of an earlier time that really isn't necessary anymore.  We have better tools now that do the job much better - "legally".

As an exhibitor or a parent, your job or role isn't as the police.  If you really think something happened improper, tell the show officials before the show.  But that's not how these things happen is it?  Nobody ever turns in the 4th place calves either do they?  In my opinion, third party protests should be impossible after a show is over.  Most of these cases are based on jealousy and sore losers - which is as bad or worse than the act the supposed cheaters committed in the first place.  The bi***ing and moaning at shows ruins things for everone - ESPECIALLY the program as a whole which we all supposedly care so much about.

What really has raised my dander about this topic are the comments about the "40 year old 4-Hers".  Would you rather have kids whose parents don't help them or teach them?  I've seen very, very few parents cross lines in 4-H/FFA remotely close to what you sometimes see with the overly zealous "sports parent".  This term gets thrown around by people who themselves weren't raised in the programs and again, are jealous that their kids can't win in whatever competition they are in.  I really appreciate leaders that are willing to help even when they don't still have kids in the program, but those folks sure shouldn't be throwing that term around.  Do a lot of us push our kids, sometimes hard?  You bet.  It's no different than the parents that push their kids to do homework, or just plain work on the farm or ranch.  That's a lot better than the alternative.

 

[oakview]

This has been an interesting topic with expectedly diverse replies.  I hope everyone's blood pressure medicine is working.  I thought I might contribute a true story that might shed some light on why many of us don't make a scene when we observe things that aren't quite right at a show.  We used to show lambs with good success.  We never won the top prize at the state fair, but we had several division champions and reserves over the years.  The last year we showed lambs, I observed a truck with Oklahoma license plates unloading some lambs that included the eventual grand champion.  It would not be so unusual to see an Oklahoma license plate on a truck delivering lambs to the fair had the fair not been in Iowa.  By listening to the conversation, it was very apparent that the lambs had been trucked all night from Oklahoma to get to Des Moines on time.  Comments overheard also included assurance that the tags had been changed long enough in advance to allow for proper healing.  We watched the group of fitters unload their own scale, watched as they weighed each lamb, tubed each with enough fluid to get the precise weight they wanted, and then paraded each separately to official weigh in.  All of this was done within two aisles, or 50 feet, of the superintendent's office.  On show morning, we observed each lamb's underline and legs being painted.  The rule book explicitly bans any painting of animals.  I had finally reached the end of my rope and walked into the superintendent's office.  I pointed out that if they would stick their head out the door, they might notice what had been going on.  Their reply was that they had seen it, and I needed to put up the $100 and file an official protest and they would investigate.  My response was that if they had seen it, they should take care of it without my official protest and my $100.  I continued to tell them that if I filed the protest, they would not have the #### (guts) to do what should be done and I would be sued for defamation on character.  We have not shown lambs since and will not.  I'm not even going to get into the number of times I saw lambs injected with a substance that clearly was not combiotic.  

 

[garybob]

Back to the original question.  In my opinion, it's the show management and especially the JUDGE's responsibility to address these kinds of issues.  If a calf has been tampered with in a way that air or whatever else is present at show time, the judge is the one to find it and then address the issue however they see fit - either by reporting it to show management or burying the calf in last place (which is exactly what I'd do if I caught a calf with air in it in the ring). 

99.99% of the time these questions about "what should I do because someone did such and such" at the county level are based on rumor and not on something someone actually saw someone doing.  As with any rumors, they are almost always wrong.  If someone did have the nerve to air a calf (or anything else) at a show, you're sure not gonna see them doing it. 

Anyone that's actually been around it understands the absurdity of these claims about airing at a show.  That's not how or why its done, and when it is still done it's not to make a calf thicker, it's to make them smoother.  Come show time, there's nothing there but fat and meat, that is as natural as anything to do with a show steer.  Airing has nothing to do with young "jocks".  I've seen more people do it that are now in their 70s than I have the younger generation.  Those that are still doing it (and yes it's still common in families that have shown for generations) are doing so because that's how their grandfathers taught their fathers how to make a show steer look fat and smooth.  Not because they are vile cheaters.  I know plenty of folks that still do it, and it doesn't bother me showing against them one bit.  I don't mind selling calves to them.  Airing is really not that big of a deal in my educated opinion, as opposed to some of the other stuff that goes on.  I'd love to see some enforcement to eliminate calves living several hundred miles from the kids that own them. 

Not that anyone would believe it, but its not nearly as cruel to the animal as many other common COMMERCIAL procedures - dehorning, castrating, etc.  Do you really think you can perform a horribly painful procedure on an animal and it even begin to be able to be showed by a little kid?  I'll guarantee you a close foot trimming, pulling a hundred pounds off one, and especially cosmetic dehorning hurts them much, much worse.  And like other types of these issues I've commented on in the past, the benefits are very marginal at best, especially with all of the fat supplements we now have at our disposal.  It's an artifact of an earlier time that really isn't necessary anymore.  We have better tools now that do the job much better - "legally".

As an exhibitor or a parent, your job or role isn't as the police.  If you really think something happened improper, tell the show officials before the show.  But that's not how these things happen is it?  Nobody ever turns in the 4th place calves either do they?  In my opinion, third party protests should be impossible after a show is over.  Most of these cases are based on jealousy and sore losers - which is as bad or worse than the act the supposed cheaters committed in the first place.   The bi***ing and moaning at shows ruins things for everone - ESPECIALLY the program as a whole which we all supposedly care so much about.

What really has raised my dander about this topic are the comments about the "40 year old 4-Hers".  Would you rather have kids whose parents don't help them or teach them?  I've seen very, very few parents cross lines in 4-H/FFA remotely close to what you sometimes see with the overly zealous "sports parent".  This term gets thrown around by people who themselves weren't raised in the programs and again, are jealous that their kids can't win in whatever competition they are in.  I really appreciate leaders that are willing to help even when they don't still have kids in the program, but those folks sure shouldn't be throwing that term around.  Do a lot of us push our kids, sometimes hard?  You bet.  It's no different than the parents that push their kids to do homework, or just plain work on the farm or ranch.  That's a lot better than the alternative.

You missed the point, Chambero. The young lady said the ''cheaters'' told her THEMSELVES about pumping their steer.

Besides, she lives in Harrison ( or Bergman, Lead Hill, Alpena, or Valley Springs). News travels faster up and down them bluffs, Glades, and 'hollers than the internet.

Trust me, on this one. I was born there, and raised between Green Forest, Alpena, Omaha, and Blue Eye.

HOWEVER, the young lady needs to realize that folks will probably shun her for being the whistleblower. I don't ever comment on a YOuth-focused issue on SteerPlanet. This one topic is the exception, because it saddens me to know that this has happened in my home territory.

Airing a steer is NOT the same as using a sweat collar.

GB

 

[chambero]

"You missed the point, Chambero. The young lady said the ''cheaters'' told her THEMSELVES about pumping their steer. "

My opinion is completely unfounded, irrelevant, and based on a gut instinct, but I seriously doubt that someone would walk up to another competetior and say "I beat you because I aired my steer."

Rumor travels fast at any show in any part of the country.

 

[OH Breeder]

Airing is really not that big of a deal in my educated opinion, as opposed to some of the other stuff that goes on.  I'd love to see some enforcement to eliminate calves living several hundred miles from the kids that own them. 

Not that anyone would believe it, but its not nearly as cruel to the animal as many other common COMMERCIAL procedures - dehorning, castrating, etc.  Do you really think you can perform a horribly painful procedure on an animal and it even begin to be able to be showed by a little kid?  I'll guarantee you a close foot trimming, pulling a hundred pounds off one, and especially cosmetic dehorning hurts them much, much worse.  And like other types of these issues I've commented on in the past, the benefits are very marginal at best, especially with all of the fat supplements we now have at our disposal.  It's an artifact of an earlier time that really isn't necessary anymore.  We have better tools now that do the job much better - "legally".

Chambero

I will disagree on the statement above in regards to airing. I don't know anything about it except for here say. If you had ever seen burn victims or skin graphs you would understand. Airing which seperates the  skin from underlying tissues would be quiet painful. I assume there  is no general anethestic given to the said animal that is being aired. I do'nt know about your vet but when we do a cosmetic dehorning and shaping of skull we anesthetize the calf and provide pain medication following the procedure as well as antibiotics. I am betting they don't provide antiinflammatories and pain relief for airing. I think some animals are treated better than some humans. Pain relief is number one when talking about healing.

Quick AP
"The skin is made up of two layers, the epidermis and the dermis. The epidermis, the upper or outer layer of the skin, is a tough, waterproof, protective layer. The dermis, or inner layer, is thicker than the epidermis and gives the skin its strength and elasticity. The two layers of the skin are anchored to one another by a thin but complex layer of tissue, known as the basement membrane. This tissue is composed of a series of elaborately interconnecting molecules that act as ropes and grappling hooks to hold the skin together. Below the dermis is the subcutaneous layer, a layer of tissue composed of protein fibers and adipose tissue (fat). Although not part of the skin itself, the subcutaneous layer contains glands and other skin structures, as well as sensory receptors involved in the sense of touch."
With the seperation of the layers in lies the issue with pain management.

 

[RSC]

Boy I wish this thread would go away!  PETA ever gets alhold of a thread like this and this industry might get the exposure that we're not looking for!  JMO

Tony

 

[BNCTS]

I am sure that the oringinator of this post is not concerned with the welfare of cattle or the integrity of the industry, but soley on the need to win in a very corrupt county who cares only about who wins the county fair, it is a county full of parents trying to win for themselves and throwing innocent kids into the "ring of fire".  Airing cattle in the said county has never been and is not an issue, but only a rumor, made up by a group of unhappy has- been families (much like the orignator), rumors just like ones in  previous years to try to disqualify as many calves and they can before the fair starts. Regardless of everyones feelings towards airing cattle, this thread was started as a way to uncover ways to tell if a steer had been pumped, only to disqualify a group of calves. The real topic of this thread should be "Integrity within County Fairs" as mentioned in another post county fairs bring out the worse in people who only show once a year or to try to get ruin names of people who work hard and try to win things right.  I am in the said county and "rumors" are somethings that has effected my kids drastically in the last year since we had a successful year last year, at not only county and state air, but  shows across the state and nation. It sickens me to think other families are now under attack from the same group of families!

 

[shorthorngirl2010]

Boy I wish this thread would go away!  PETA ever gets alhold of a thread like this and this industry might get the exposure that we're not looking for!  JMO

Tony

Short. Simple. To the point. I agree.

 

[herefordfootball]

Boy I wish this thread would go away!  PETA ever gets alhold of a thread like this and this industry might get the exposure that we're not looking for!  JMO

Tony

Short. Simple. To the point. I agree.

Agreed, take it down. Its causing to many hard feelings.

 

[herefordfootball]

I dont know what everyone does with their cattle. And the exact opposite of what? Very true, I cant tell you what to do or not to do once you've bought the calf, but that will be the last time you buy a calf from me, I guarantee you that. I'm not trying to speak for everyone else, and no I'm not a "big influential trader", never said I was, but how do you know showsteernc, that I am not? You do not know me personally and you dont know who I deal with in cattle, so before you go saying what someone is or isnt I'd find out who I was talking to first, before I made a fool or myself.

Number one I highly doubt any trader would be on here saying anything to the like of "I won't sell a calf to anyone who airs it". Number 2 you've stated your age on here before and sorry but 17 or whatever isn't quite the age that most experienced jocks/traders are. And don't worry, I'm not going to make a fool of myself anytime soon. As I said in my previous statement and on other posts to which you have responded, just let it be, you stated your opinion, quit stirring the waters, but I guess that would be way to easy and to mature a decision wouldn't it.

No, a trader with no ethics wouldnt be on here saying "I wont sell a calf to anyone who airs it", thats where I come in, I wouldnt sell calves to people who abuse their animals, but youre different arent ya? Oh and you already made a fool of yourself. I'm bettin I raise a lot better calves at 18(Oh I had a bday in JULY!!!) than you do at....???? And as for letting it be, you dont have to post on here if you dont want too. You dont have to even read it, leave it to the moderators bud as to who can post and etc.