Finding semen on old bulls

[clifflem]

AJ, you mentioned the Hub's bulls.  They were milking Shorthorn bloodlines, but were as thick as the beef cattle were.  I haven't been in that set of cattle for several years, but I remember them as being one of the most complete, uniform cowherds of any breed I have ever looked at.  They are intensively linebred and breed pretty true to type.  I would think from the standpoint of good complete cattle that they would have a lot to offer.
JIT, the Maxi King 77 bull was owned by Gene Lindsey at Manhattan, KS.  I showed a heifer out of him for some friends of mine in the mid 80's.  She was quite a bit thicker than most of the other heifers her age at that time.  They also had a Highfield Highler 202 heifer that came out of the Lazy D dispersal sale that beat her most of the time, but wasn't near as thick or deep ribbed.

 

[M Bar]

cliff, you're bringing up old memories of traveling with Gene's bull Goliath.  That was a few years back when all I was allowed to do was brush and lead to the washrack!

 

[Doc]

  They also had a Highfield Highler 202 heifer that came out of the Lazy D dispersal sale that beat her most of the time, but wasn't near as thick or deep ribbed.

I've got some Highler 202 eggs out of a dtr of Prime Time & the original Scarlet O'Hare still. I've got some Highfield Parkler 104 semen still, he was a Leader 18th son that was as long as a well rope.

 

[Davis Shorthorns]

I would love to get ahold of some older semen.  Especially Leader 21st, or Leader 9th. 

 

[r.n.reed]

  I think it is interesting that Pheasant  Creek Leader 4th referred to in JIT's post  and Maxi Brute are sired by full brothers and out of Larson influenced females.

 

[oakview]

I leased Highfield Parkler 104 the year I bought Lazy D Ultimate Type.  In my opinion, he would fall into the category of bulls that were not that great in their day that would not be so great today, either.  I remember when Bob Miller stopped by in the early 80's, saw Parkler 104 out with some of my cows and politely questioned my sanity.  There are still some active descnedants of the only decent heifer calf I got out of Parkler 104.  An old time bull we had real good luck with for calving ease was 3W Payoff, but I'm afraid his calves would be a bit extreme for most today.  His daughters really made good cows for us.  I have heard people say they would love to find semen on everything from Louada Aristocrat to Ayatollah.  I've got a tank full of stuff I've collected over the past 45 years, but now I tend to use what I like and try not to recreate the wheel.  To each their own.

 

[aj]

What would be the price range for 21st, or Big Gene semen, or superflag?I'm not sure frozen semen remains good forever but it will last a long time I am told. I have a real moderate cow that the showring people would hate but I was wondering about flushing her old school. Thin she would weigh 1,000 and fat(which she usually is) weighs probably 1200#. I would probably try jpj or big gene or maxi-brute on her I guess. Maybe ready go x or superflag.

 

[r.n.reed]

The Shorthorn breed and I am sure the other breeds as well have run through a lot of types and strains in the last 40 yrs in search of the next great wave.I agree that some should never be revisited,but some should be tried for the following reasons,1.Input costs are expensive,2.The cattle in the breed are of a size that require a lot of inputs to reach their genetic potential,and 3.There are no modern strains that would have the ability to bring us to optimum fast enough.
A.J. I agree with your idea of using a moderate framed female to use with these bulls,I think the offspring will be more predictable.Better yet if that line has been consistently moderate through the generations.I Think the best bulls from these crosses will probably not be optimum but hopefully their offspring will approach that level.

 

[justintime]

The last Leader 21 semen I purchased cost me $100 per dose, which I consider to be a very reasonably price. I am only using this semen for flushing, so it is a different deal than just breeding an individual cow to a vial of it. I am still selling Super Flag semen at $40 per dose so it is still reasonable. As far as the quality of old semen, my ET vet says that the old semen he has checked has been as good or better than semen from today's bulls. I flushed a cow to semen that was collected in 1962 and it was exceptionally good quality. One thing to remember is that the old vials have considerably more sperm in them than a straw from today. Today they dilute the semen more than was done back then.

oakview.... I had a chuckle when you mentioned Bob Miller politely questioning your sanity in using Parkler 104.In years gone by, I questioned Bob's sanity on a few bulls I saw in his pastures. I remember one bull in particular that Bob was praising highly before we went on a pasture tour. When we got to the pasture and saw the bull, Bob said " I don't think I have ever saw a bull quite like him". I had to agree.... but I think my reasons were different than Bob's.

 

[yuppiecowboy]

Lonny, did you know Otis Rothisberger?

Kadel is still alive and I would happily give a kidney to see what is in his tank

 

[aj]

I realize that the belt buckle high cattle weren't real world rangey cattle. So even the commercial cattle people rejected some one the powderpuffs in the 50's,60's, and early 70's. I don't know if there is a perfect size. I did read a real in the Red Angus journal today. "If you don't have a 5-7% of your cows  come up open...you are giving them to much to eat"."are we making genetic progress with fertility or are we ignoring that our feed bill is increasing"? Probably one in a hundred purebred cattle producers practice natural selection pressure. Everbody talks about epds and all americans and flushing butwho actually puts their purebred herd through a strict culling process. Very few purebred producers cull their herds as hard as commercial producers. They always give Lucy Janes all american cow that hasn't bred for two years and has a terrible udder"just one more chance. There has got to be a middle of the road for this deal somewhere. Alot of they old trendy cattle won't work but I would think fleshing ability would be one attribute they could improve. Fleshing ability and waste on a carcass is the same thing but is valued differently in two sectors of the industry. ;D (argue)

 

[yuppiecowboy]

Damacles (?) Sword.

The pendulum that kills on both ends of the swing.

Somewhere, someone has the best cows walking and they are boring as a turtle race.

By the time you get it figured out they get the cadillac fired up and dig a hole by the big oak.

The show cattle segment of the beef industry, and purebred cattle by and large, is reliant on change and single trait selection. Alot of these bulls we are glorifiying on this thread werent worth a fiddlers brat then and would be worse today. Do any of you realize what the 205 weights of these "super bulls" were? a biggun was 450. 

 

[aj]

Check out "thesemenbank.com". Kinda of an interesting concept.

 

[aj]

Heck...check out cryobank.com. You can order human semen on a search deal...just put in weight,height,eye,color,hair color,etc and for 495$ you can order up. ;D

 

[r.n.reed]

I agree that breeding a cow herd is a constant balancing act complicated by ever changing customer demands.I also realize that every one is looking at that balance beam from a different perspective.Take that 450lb calf.If he is out of a 1700lb cow and has been creep fed with mama being hand fed every night that weight does not look to good.If he is out of an 1100lb cow and raised in an environment that is challenging that weight starts to look a little better.I do not expect these bulls to be the total answer to every ones program but think some may contribute a step to someone achieving their goals.Talk to people who used them in the past,evaluate the programs they came from and any data that is available.If you find one you think might help you give it a shot and see what you get.

 

[justintime]

There were some simply outstanding bulls in the past, and I am glad there is semen remaining on some of them. Yes, some were duds, and sired calves that weaned at 450 lbs, but there were some that could compete with the best bloodlines of today. What I like the best is that some of these sires from the past can really work with some of today's genetics. Take our two Leader 21 calves for example. The bull calf weaned at 710 lbs at 210 days with no creep, and he will be well over 1200 lbs at  365 days. The heifer weaned at 595 lb and is developing into a very good female. I have both entered in the Denver show and I would not have entered them if I did not think they represented our program well.

There are not many bulls today like Four Point Major, who weighed 2600 lb on pasture as a 11 year old bull. Very few bulls today, could walk like Major could. He was a very impressive bull and his daughters were thick, deep sided with tremendous capacity. They had good udders and were good milkers. They milked just enough to raise a good calf without melting down to a skeleton themselves.

When I was a kid, my dad had a bull called Louada Clachan who was a son of Bapton Constructor. Clachan was huge for being a Constructor son as he weighed 2350 on a poor day. My dad was able to buy him, as he was considered too big and therefore sold reasonably. Do I wish we had semen from this bull today! He sired some really good offspring and I would have loved to try him on some of today's females. Clachan was tremendously thick and easy fleshing, with great feet and huge testicles.

Even though most of the Scottish bloodlines of the 50s and 60s are remembered for the belt buckle cattle, there occasionally appeared a very big bull from these genetics. I remember a couple of Scotsdale bulls that were honest 2600 - 2700 lb bulls. One was Scotsdale Mandate, and he was one of the most impressive bulls I remember. They were massive then, and they would be massive today. They sired lots of cattle that were not appreciated in their day, because they were big thick easy fleshing cattle, rather than the short squatty cattle that were winning at the time.

There were some good cattle in the past. We just have to sort through them and use the good stuff. There rest can be forgotten.

 

[oakview]

I did know Otis Rothlisberger, I believe he had lost an ear to an injury.  Bob Miller is one of a kind, in a good way.  I went up to his place in the early 80's to look at a bull.  Bob wanted me to get a good look at the big top he had (the bull).  I could see from where I was that he had a lot of muscle down his top, but Bob made me climb up in the hay loft to get a better view!  He was a son of Hilltop Lancer 457.  Bob's son-in-law had a daughter or two of Lancer at Louisville a couple of years ago that were't too bad.  Kind of fun to read the old names of cattle, and people, mentioned that bring up good memories.  I have seen so many impressive cattle over the past 45 years and it's been fun having offspring of most of them in my herd at one time or another.

 

[r.n.reed]

I remember 457 as well.I can still picture him standing in the corner of the old amphitheatre in Chicago after he had won I think the last International championship.I remember him being exceptionally muscled for the times especially for a straight dual pedigree and the hair was a lot shorter in that era.I used his son Nelco McLeod for several years and many of my cows have 2 to 3 crosses of McLeod in their pedigree.He was out of the same dam as Nelco Dillon who sired the top loin eyes in 1970's ASA sire tests.

 

[itk]

I did know Otis Rothlisberger, I believe he had lost an ear to an injury.  Bob Miller is one of a kind, in a good way.  I went up to his place in the early 80's to look at a bull.  Bob wanted me to get a good look at the big top he had (the bull).  I could see from where I was that he had a lot of muscle down his top, but Bob made me climb up in the hay loft to get a better view!  He was a son of Hilltop Lancer 457.  Bob's son-in-law had a daughter or two of Lancer at Louisville a couple of years ago that were't too bad.  Kind of fun to read the old names of cattle, and people, mentioned that bring up good memories.  I have seen so many impressive cattle over the past 45 years and it's been fun having offspring of most of them in my herd at one time or another.

We have had a handfull of cows from Bob over the years. He is the only person I have to free up an evening just to call because I know I will be on the phone for a few hours talking. He seems to be using alot of the older genetics lately which seem to be working from him. His take on the breed is always interesting as he is never one to follow the trends. He knows what works for him and sticks with it come what may.

 

[Endless Meadows]

Thank you for all of the comments, information, and points of view on some of the older bulls.  I would also have to agree that some of the cattle from back then are probably too small and don't have enough performance.  There are also some of the modern cattle, and even popular bloodlines that I will not touch either.  Thanks again for all of the info.