Finding semen on old bulls

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justintime

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Sutherland Ransom 179 was a very impressive bull. .Maybe as good a bull in the 80s there was. We had a son of 179, named Waukaru Cinnabar , who was the Reserve World Champion in 1980. Cinnabar is one bull that I wish I had semen from today. I would be using him heavily if I had any. He sired moderate framed cattle that had extra muscle and style. His daughters were excellent cows with great udders. There may be some semen floating around the US yet on him as we sold him to Indiana after we had used him for 4 years.

I still have Marc 1V, Cujo and J&H Mike's Cujo in my tanks... all of which are descendants of 2975.
 

Doc

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justintime said:
I still have Marc 1V, Cujo and J&H Mike's Cujo in my tanks... all of which are descendants of 2975.

Yea, I've got those also, JIT along with some G-9. I've got eggs by Mike's Cujo & HS Dolly Parton 288. I've also got some Cujo eggs out of a Prime Time dtr of Robin R180. Actually going to ship a 13 year old cow of that mating this week. Luckily I've got 2 dtrs of her in the herd.
JIT, did you ever use RPS Tribune  any?
 

justintime

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I never did use Tribune, but I did try to buy him when Don Pope had him at Denver as a 12 month old calf. Don priced him to me at $10,000 and a couple hours later I went back to see him again... and found out that Hoyt had purchased him. Tribune was probably the best son of Surge ( Mollies Defenders Adair). Surge was another bull that I tried to buy, but lost out.
 

aj

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What is the story behind surge? I remember mikes cujo. Wasn't he a bigger framed bull who's calves were alittle more moderate like low 7 frames? One thing about Bakenhuses program is that they built alot of it(seemed to me) on homozygous polled genetics. I think Mikes Cujo was homo polled. They realized that a homozygous polled bull was essentially twice as good as a heterozygous polled bull as far as the polled factor is concerned. I still think Bakenhuses herd is one of the best overall. :)
 

justintime

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Surge was the Supreme Champion at the Polled Congress in Omaha back in the early 80s. He was a solid red bull with lots of depth of rib and overall thickness. He was sold by Bill Marston who was from Minnesota at the time. Bill moved to South Dakota later and took over his wife's parents place and raised some pretty good Angus after that. Bill was killed in an auto accident a few years ago.

Surge sold to R Lee Johnson ( Millbrook) in Ohio at $18,500. He was bred in the Shantz herd in Nebraska and was mostly Haumont breeding. He had an exceptional amount of body mass and was a good bull.
 

r.n.reed

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The Cooksley's are developing a son of Surge to use on their Haumont herd.
 

oakview

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I have about 10 straws of CC Cujo.  Any information on calving ease, performance, etc., would be appreciated.  Would he be worth using today?    I have a few Boxer cows (Cujo granddaughters) that I really like for their productivity.
 

Doc

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oakview said:
I have about 10 straws of CC Cujo.  Any information on calving ease, performance, etc., would be appreciated.  Would he be worth using today?    I have a few Boxer cows (Cujo granddaughters) that I really like for their productivity.

Lonnie, I wouldn't be afraid to use it at all. He's not a hfr bull , as the calves can be a little bigger. When i say bigger I mean in the 90 lb range, never heard of any monsters like you hear about today though. He will have some performance in the calves & the dtrs will make good cows.
 

justintime

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CC Cujo was the Bull Calf Champion at the 1982 World Show in Louisville. He was a thick well muscled bull. I would not call him a easy calving bull,  but I would not call him a hard calver either. I do not recall ever having to assist his calves from mature cows. I don't think I ever bred heifers to him, but I know some people did, and I do not recall any wrecks. Usually you hear about them if someone has had problems. I know I did breed heifers to his son, J& H Mike's Cujo x and I didn't have any problems with him.

Cujo offspring had lots of grow power, and he also would add some muscle to his offspring from females that needed some help in this area. There was lots of talk about him being part Maine but no one was ever able to prove anything, that I heard about. I think this probably originated from the fact that when he was shown in Louisville as a calf, he was registered as a son of Deerpark Dividend. A few months after the show, it was discovered that he did not blood type to Dividend as his sire, but did bloodtype to Millbrook Ransom 2975. Gary Chesnut, the breeder did have both sires in his semen tank and it was felt that it was a mistake at breeding time.

Some Cujo offspring from big framed cows would probably be considered too big today. His daughters were just average for milk, unless they come from a heavy milking dam. There were also a few issues with teat length and overall udder quality which does seem to go along with the 2975 lineage.

I guess I would say that CC Cujo had some good things to offer, but I would be a little careful what I bred him too. I have heard that some breeders are using him again on some of today's popular bloodlines to see if he will work with them. It may well be that he would work with some of these lines better than he did with cows from 20-25 years ago. I still have semen in my tanks as well. I have been wondering if I should revisit him again as well.
 

justintime

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Opps.... you are right! I was thinking G9 and writing 2975. Sorry for the goof.

Up until now, I was only wrong once.... and that was one time I thought I was wrong !!  Haha
 

Doc

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justintime said:
Opps.... you are right! I was thinking G9 and writing 2975. Sorry for the goof.

Up until now, I was only wrong once.... and that was one time I thought I was wrong !!  Haha

I just hope I'm not burned at the stake for being the one to point out this one!  lol ;)
 

shortyjock89

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Hey, finally a bull raised around me being talked about! 

I'm pretty sure Gary even had a couple Cujo daughters and granddaughters being shown when I was young, and Cujo shows up in quite a few popular pedigrees.  Dad always said Cujo was something to see, and wishes he had bought some semen on him when he was popular. 
 

aj

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Let me throw this out there. Were the old style bulls wastier fronted in general...or not. Also what are the front ends of Jakes Proud Jazz like? I always thought a little front end meant some fleshing ability. Are feedlot cattle with leather up front poorer cutability or not? What have your jpj's looked like?
 

clifflem

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I have really enjoyed this thread.  We started in the Shorthorn business in 1976, and have seen several of the bulls talked about. I can remember seeing Lancer 457 at Dean Fieser's in Kansas as an older bull.  He was still impressive with thickness and was really smooth for an older bull.  I also saw Nelco Mcleod at Dean's several times.  He made some really good females and Fieser's sold several of them to Bedwell's in Oklahoma.  The original Teri Star at Bedwells was a McLeod daughter. 
The bulls at Hub's were really good, sound, productive cattle.  I saw Dominator at Steve Washburn's.  Wayne McKee used some of the Hub's bulls too.  He had a full brother to Dominator called Dominant.  He also used a bull named Hub's Prince Adair.  If I remember right, he was a full brother to the Selector bull that Twig Marston used.  I always enjoyed visiting with Steve and Virgil when we went to look at cattle or at the Kansas State Fair.  McKee's also used a bull they raised called Commander that was by a brother to 457 ( if I recall correctly)  Commander's mother was a Prince Adair daughter out of a Barrington Grand Duke cow.  She was a big bodied, easy fleshing red cow that weighed close to a ton when I saw her when she was in her teens. 
The MaxiBrute bull of Stout's was mentioned.  He sired the first bull they had that was a national champion, a bull they called Skunk.  Since him they have had Fifth Avenue, Rodeo Drive, and Boxer that have been National Champions.  Also had Res. National Champion Female with the Fifth Pearl heifer.
A couple bulls that I would mention that in their time were different, were the 2 Chuck-o-Luck bulls that Packard Brothers showed in the 70's.  A friend of mine owned Royal Silver and quit the registered business several years ago.  He gave us some of the Royal Silver semen he had left.  I wonder what he would do on some of the newer bloodlines.  Real Silver was used by Dugdale and Dale Rocker in NE.  I guess I would throw Dividend in as another breed changer that is still being used some. 
 

justintime

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I remember both of these Chuck-o-luck bulls. Royal Silver and Real Silver both were good bulls I would think it may be worth a try to use Royal Silver on some of today's bloodlines. I remember him as being moderate framed and having more natural muscle than most of the cattle in that era. The Real Silver bull was also a very good bull and I think it would be worth a call to Dale Rocker to see if there was any of his semen hiding is a tank somewhere's as well. Chuck-O-Luck was owned by the Mark Tracy at Boulder CO. Mark's dad was a vet and Mark was in vet college the last time I saw him. I have often wondered if they were still in the Boulder area.

I also remember seeing 457 at Bob Miller's ( Millvale)and Floyd Fredrickson's ( Nelco), as a two year old bull. He was a well muscled bull, maybe too ultra clean in his makeup for today. I know Bob Miller still uses him some on his heifers and he says he is still one of the better calving sires he has found. The Hilltop herd of Carvin Guy's in South Dakota was always an impressive herd to visit/ It was a big herd that were run under pretty commercial conditions yet the cows were always in excellent condition whenever I was there. Many of the Lancer cattle were too extreme for me then and would be today as well, but 457 was one of the better ones.
 

aj

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What is the story on four point major? Was he a Canadian and is there semen on him? Was he polled?
 

aj

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I would think the "American muscle" bull of sjc's would be considered old type along with Gizmo wouldn't they?
 
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